Oppo Vs Esoteric

Haha,

It is true, the esoteric SA-60 is really beautifully built, all external metal part, only tray is plastic. It is an interesting comparison with my oppo 95.

First obvious change is that it sounds like Hi-Res for both CDs and SACDs (latter is obviously hi res) but the oppo, SACDs can sound like CDs and more fuzzy/blurred. The resolution of the esoteric is amazing, so much that at first it feels mechanical, hard and lacks air, so ultra-detail it may feel rather analytical. The CDs sound as clear as SACDs and sound stage is amazing, instruments all located in appropriate places.
So the soundscape is really different from oppo which sounds warmer, more fuzzy, but resolution is not as good, and there is some haze which I thin I was used to and comfortable with and so when I hear the esoteric it feels as if the esoteric is too dry/hard and mechanical.

But with further listening, as the esoteric warms up again (was not used by previous owner for probably a yr ?) and setting up with full tube gear, its muscality shows up more, and mellows out (or I get used to it?) Despite sounding brighter, a bit more forward soundstage it is actually not fatiguing at all, and no harshness, no high freq roll off, all of which exists in the oppo often.

But it tends to be less forgiving, as poorly recorded CDs/SACDs are not really sounding much better than oppo and may feel worse, so seems to highlight some weaknesses more (or just perceived as worse when compared with other better recordings that now sound amazing). This is somehow more so with SACDs:

The high quality pure native DSD recordings sound really amazing! - perfect soundstage, totally analogue, instruments all well layered and in clear positions. Can even reproduce complex opera with full orchestra, multiple singers without loss of focus or fatigue, which often plagues the oppo when music gets a bit overwhelmed.

SACDs review can be tricky as recording qualities are very variable even in the same time period, meaning you can get poor recordings even now after technology has been there for ? 10 yrs or longer while there are excellent recordings coming out still.

The esoteric highlights the suboptimal DSD recordings very well, it is not interested in sugar coating/covering the flaws at all.

For DSD remastered from 24/96Hz - there is more grain in the tone, and has rougher edges, sound stage is usually narrower, a bit more digital/harsher. Just sounds more like CDs. The oppo also shows this but not as obvious, its fatter/warmer tone masks these better and can seem more tolerable, and since the real DSD recordings do not sound as superb, the difference between true DSD and PCM remastered recordings are not as great.

The DXD remastered to DSD recordings sound very good too, without the issue with lower res PCM transfer, though I still need to listen to them more to compare.


Also one thing it does quite well with CDs is that it seems to make recordings with poor resolution on CDs better than before at least on a recording I tried, tends to make CDs sound like hi-res, but perhaps may lose some warmth. Have not tired many poor recordings yet.

Bear in mind my comparison with oppo is from memory as I cannot really do A/B comparing easily (needs to unhook/and rehook, and I have limited space for doing that. The opp 95 is supposedly inferior to 205 and it is stock, unmodified. Not sure how a 205 would compare, esp if it is modified.

For M-ch I have not had much chance doing and my setup is suboptimal but the brief tests I did with pentatone recordings were amazing/jaw dropping on some great recordings! I may try some a/b comparison with M-ch as no one online seems to have done that (don’t blame them, it is hard work with all the wires!). M-ch is really taking one to another level of listening that it warrants a separate discussion thread, once you try it, will never go back to 2-ch... .

hope this helps anyone out there who wants to know oppo v s esoteric

The build quality of Esoteric products is very, very high. They make mass-market players seem like disposable appliances. You can buy a used DV-50S (which weights 47 lbs.!) for less than a new Oppo, and it will still be working perfectly when the Oppo is in a landfill.

Ok my esoteric SA-60 just arrived yesterday.  Not much time to set it up properly but it sounds totally different from  Oppo.  Will tell u guys more later ! 

1graber your all mixed up , I’m pretty sure by your comments you’ve never heard a well balanced and revealing system , also you don’t seem to understand what I just said ,...by by boo boo 

@in_shore Diminishing returns has everything to do with bang for buck and ROI/return on investment, unless you are talking about something else, which you are, so there was no reason to say that it has "absolutely nothing" to do with diminishing returns.

OP, I rarely buy any new high end audiophile gear unless it is a great piece. So if @mdp632 says some new Esoteric models are coming out, I would suggest seriously considering a used X05,x07, etc. the used price probably be about %60 of MSRP.

Remember, these units at $6k are build to last a lifetime. You could pick one up for $3500 and try it out, even do your own side by side comparison with the Oppo. If you did not like the Esoteric (tho I dont know why), you could sell it for about the same price you paid for it b/c the price will not drop right away after the new model comes out. In any case, this is what i would do.

Someone suggested accessories to lower the distortion of the Oppo using, eg put anti resonance under the power supply. When i had an Oppo, I did this. it helped. But still, compared to the Esoteric, etc, it is like putting lipstick on a pig.
After the lipstick is applied, do you still want to kiss her?

@in_shore The reason I passed on the PS Audio stack (even though was discounted highly off MSRP) was more so the technical glitches you mentioned.  In addition, I prefer having a one box digital solution.  You might consider checking out the newly released K03Xs model to replace your PS Audio.  I've also seen some used K03X and 01X for sale to make way for the XS models that were just released. I'm also considering Luxman and perhaps even TAD D1000Mk2.  EMM Labs XDSv2 while amazing isn't available new anymore but; probably also very good if you can find a deal.  

1graber2 currently I’m enjoying the best digital playback in my home to date , though changes are a commin

, I’m experiencing familiar music is at its best only made more enjoyable by some critical cable changes . 
The ModWright 205 oppo is possibly a very satisfying performer for some and with member Lances comparison of his ModWright 205 and his PS Audio dac and player I find curious because the PS
Audio pair playback is outstanding however as good as these components are they are not worth thier retail price at all . It has absolutely nothing to do with diminishing returns , clearly they do perform very well though technical issues still plague these components they and I think partly is why they don’t hold thier value at all as frequently seen on the used market .

For that very reason I have moved on from PS Audio and currently auditioning thier replacement.
Over the years I’ve listened to these so called giant killers wonder of all wonders only to realize no matter what mod and tweaks most if not all are just an expensive digital sounding player .
The Esoteric K03 was replaced by PS Audio simply because playback was much better , I can actually tell the difference from good and better however CD playback of the KO3 I never warmed up to even after the ridiculous run in time and trying the too many set options .
the OP s question about other dedicated players or the ModWright Oppo he should maybe stick with and purchase quality anti resonance devices for under the power supply and oppo , there will be a nice improvement, well it did with my oppo 205 by ridding some but not all digital glare and improved the picture quality by a good margin.

@1graber2 Agree 100x. @milpai Yes, higher end products will sound different but, will they provide the sound you are looking for? And will you will be willing to spend that kind of money in order to achieve it? Furthermore; yes a great source is paramount as @1graber2 stated.  However, if your electronics and speakers don't have the resolving power ; you'll never hear this potential.  Until of course you upgrade them.  Frankly, finding a dealer that will let you borrow one of this pieces to hear in your system is the only way to be sure.  Finally;  I also own a 205 and recently upgraded it with the MW 205 upgrade.  It has taken the performance to a new level and I preferred it in my system to the PS/Audio/Directstream combo (that I heard a few months ago with previous firmware).  That stack retails for over 10k.  System synergy and subjective preferences do go a long way. To that end; I'm looking to replace my MW 205 eventually but not as fast as I once thought.  I'm thinking it might take an Esoteric K03X or higher ; Luxman D08u to surpass it.  All those one box players I listed retail for over 10k.

Enjoy the 205.

@in_shore Ya the Modwright Oppo is the exception to Oppo gear. That mod has made a mark for itself for sure.

The Esoteric/Marantz/Luxman mentioned above are a good 3-4 levels above that of the Oppo. Now, having said that, the Oppo is best bang for buck, and the E/M/Ls are end-game sources/players, such that there is a point of diminishing returns. We all have our own personal threshold here in regards to how much we are willing to spend and point of our ROI or no ROI. the Gear you mention costs 6x the cost of the Oppo: go to the bottom of this page and see the horizontal row of CDPs/DACs-I think you mentioned them all: https://www.musicdirect.com/dac/esoteric-k-07x-sacdcd-player-dac

That said, you will get about 3x the cleanliness, transparency, dynamics, that you will get from the Oppo. B/c these other 3 will have better "Clocks" etc. But of course each of the EML manufacturers may impart their own sonic influence on the final product, but the actual electronic signal will be much cleaner with more power to reveal those details and nuances in the music (as well as thundering bass, or a delicate top end, micro & macro dynamics improved etc). Others may argue. But just read a couple reviews of the EMLs above, and look at the power supplies and higher quality circuitry.

When we get down to the brass tacks so to speak of higher-end audio, IMO the quality of the power source in particular makes huge differences in what you can - or cannot - hear from a recording. The Oppo may even have 2 small power supplies that they tout allows huge gains in AV quality. But compared to what? a multi disc player at Walmart for $59. Remember that the Oppo is a multitasker that is trying to juggle a lot of sh*t at once: Audio, Video, multiple Digital and analog ins and outs, etc. So spreading out that limited and limited QUALITY  power to all those different functions will sap the energy that o/w could be dedicated to JUST receiving the digital signal (CD to signal), or JUST sending the digital signal out the back to a DAC, e.g. ....

My last point is that of your Source .... sh*t runs downhill (sorry, I was raised by Rednecks) ...
From the Source onward the quality of your signal will only degrade, not get better. I mean, it may sound Different b/c the PreAmp or the Amp or speaker imparts its own sound qualities onto the final sound, but the clarity, black background, etc will not improve. IMO the Oppo would not have the cleanest digital signal transferred, but the EMLs would, and would make a great sources for life, since they have digital ins as well.

@1graber2 ,
I am wondering how much better is the Esoteric/Marantz/Luxman than the Oppo. I am pretty happy with what the Oppo is doing in my system.

Oppo is an awesome piece of kit for a guy with a limited budget of $1300 for an All in One player.
But it is the Master of None, and the Esoteric of course is the Master on One.

You answered your own question with the original post!

If you converts PCM to DSD it may not be that goodm which is what DS DAC does. Many who prefers PCM over DSD are because they are not listening to  pure DSD recordindg/files:

1. PCM converted to DSD via computer or like  DS DAC
2. The original recording is low Res PCM 24/96 and converted to DSD by recording company

Best way to do DSD is to use native DSD files that are originally recorded as DSD, with minimal processing (e.g. no complete conversion to PCM). Then probably should be played on a Dedicated DSD DAC that use DSD circuit. I am not sure Signa Delta chips are that good for DSD, though they tend to do better than PCM. 
I will do more comparison between hi RES PCM (blu-ray audio) and DSD (SACD) from my oppo 95 and see.  

@atacgene, I do stand by my opinion about the Modwright Oppo besting the DS DAC and I may be realizing that I prefer the sound of PCM over DSD. I’m not putting down the DS DAC. It still sounds good in my second system but I like the energy of the Modwright Oppo.

Atacgene ,....the ModWright oppo beat out the PS Audio Direct Stream components ......Proof PS Audio Direct Stream components are a outrageous rip off ,

What other outrageously over priced underperforming brands out there the ModWright Oppo shames ? 
LOL 

Start OPPO 105, with Tidal and Digital Concert Hall App installed, it become an instant music video audio streamer. Lossless music. Use your iphone or ipad to select the music. 

Also I find it interesting modwright oppo 205 beats PS Audio DS but then perhaps oppo works better with PCM? PS audio converts all to DSD, not necessarily good for all PCM. Then also the tube effect of oppo may help a lot. 

Also Ayre SACD players are apparently superb

I heard oppo 205 is best in Blu-ray, the rest are fine but not superb. But the modwright oppo  205 apparently is much better overall, but seems to concentrate on 2-ch output tube stage with separate PS for it. The m-ch part is not really changed much, so not for me. If I want best 2-ch stereo there are many old and new 2 ch players. I heard the PS audio memory player is superb for cd/SACD 

I started a nearly identical thread a while ago, comparing Marantz reference line disc players to the Oppo. I was extremely suspicious of the media hype for the oppo, and many of the responses I received were similar to here. If you want two channel reference, you can’t compare a dedicated player to the Oppo. Although the Oppo is good, you get what you pay for.

Well gdhal , I was responding to the OP question , I’m sure audio playback of the ModWright oppo 205 could possibly be quiet satisfying for some however it would be truly remarkable if it rivaled the better players from Esoteric , PS Audio and EMM Labs , LoL 

Ive never listen to or watched video performance of the $2,500 ModWright version of the 205 however I really enhanced my own 205 video with Symposium Roller Blocks 2plus and purchase of WireWorld platinum starlite HDMI Cable .

If I haven't already made myself clear that video is completely out of the equation where ModWright is concerned, kindly PM me so I can forward their email which reads:

"I can assure you 100% that the video will not be affected in any way. We only improve the 2CH Analog output otherwise the entire Oppo remains stock."

I really like my Oppo 205 and I’m not surprised about others comparison with Esoterics entry level players , K07 & K05 .
Having owned Esoteric K03 I can say there’s a leap of overall refinement of sound quality over these entry level players from Esoteric , the K03 mid level and top end players are much different players.
Ive never listen to or watched video performance of the $2,500 ModWright version of the 205 however I really enhanced my own 205 video with Symposium Roller Blocks 2plus and purchase of WireWorld platinum starlite HDMI Cable .

Oppo vs Esoteric ... I mean, it’s just not a fair fight.

Presumably, there are many who would agree. And again presumably, it's for this reason (or at least one reason) that Oppo owners seek to "modify" the stock unit. But they are two different animals. As the OP correctly points out the Oppo is a jack-of-all-trade whereas the Esoteric is master of one. And depending on what the fair fight is predicated on, the Oppo could very well come out on top :)

Oppo vs Esoteric ... I mean, it’s just not a fair fight.  

@atacgene,

Just for kicks I removed my PS Audio DS DAC and replaced it with the Modwright Oppo 205 from my HT. I’m a bit surprised but I prefer the Modwright Oppo over the DS DAC. There is more dynamic impact and just as much detail with the Oppo. So the Modwright mods are well worth it for 2 channel listening.

Hi @atacgene

Thanks for your clarification.

Even an upgraded LPM wouldn’t necessarily have a noticeable effect on video. I’ve read from users who have purchased their own do-it-yourself modification, and have never read back that there was any video improvement. I’m writing of this one on particular http://www.oppomod.com/.

And yes, there certainly are others besides modwright that can and do perform modifications to the Oppo. While I never heard/read of ASI, I can call one to your attention here: http://www.oppovinculum.com/News.html

Note what they write about potential video upgrade:

"...we honestly prefer not to promise great improvements in the image for all users..."

Conversely, note what they write about potential audio upgrade:

"...we believe that we can guarantee that the majority of users with high-quality audio equipment will appreciate a clear improvement...

So they went from no promises (video) to guarantees (audio).

Additionally, a change of power supply *could have a negative effect*. For example, it could change the refresh rate, which might be discernible by the front LEDs being to bright, dim, or fluctuate in intensity. 

Apparently Modwright does not do much  with original ac LPS. He uses an external LPS for the analogue output and I am not sure how much that affects the video part. ASI-tech offers a battery power supply (they do this in recording studios!) which may be the best way to improve all the signals including video, DAC etc.  it therefore is not the same mod as modwright but address the electrical input part of the player so it can be done in addition to the mod Wright, may be overkill for a cheap ESS chip!

Regards to Video output effect. If the original AC is modded, which can still be done with mod right oppo then it should improve video (if even needed!).

Why?

It appears Sony gave up on SACD m-ch after SA-60. Apparently the golden age for M-ch were the models XA 777, XA 9000se. They are still on for a $1000 or more. k-01 and others apparently do not even do DSD (forgive me if I am wrong,as there was a bit of fury going on in this thread), at least from somewhere I read but can’T find the source now. If DSD convert to PCM and still beats the Earlier SACD player that used direct stream digital playback then the Sony DSD chips must really suck. Though I don’t see any reviews regards to this.
My question is, should I get an old m-ch Sony and mod it (not even sure how much can be modded) or just get mod Oppo 205? I am mainly concerned with SACD playback (please don’t tell me to rip SACDs, not an option, SACDs are still much cheaper than DSD downloads and M-Ch DACs are rare and costly).

Regards to Video output effect. If the original AC is modded, which can still be done with mod right oppo then it should improve video (if even needed!). Dan said the clock is awesome so he did not mod it. He mainly did the audio output with tube stage. I suppose if I am still not happy with Sabre chip I can go for PS audio but it requires 3 external DAC to do surround!

For me, the K-01x simply sounds amazing playing CD, SACD, DSD and other hi res formats. It is a very musical player. It does everything for 2 channel. My only problem with it is that I don't use it enough since I am  lazy and I need to get up to switch CD's and SACD's which I prefer over streamed and ripped music.

@mcgal - what are the biggest advantages of the K-01x in your system?

rnrmf1971, I also have a Oppo 105D and an Esoteric K-01x. I find no comparison between the two players for stereo music. I much prefer the K-01x, but as you said, it is quite a bit more expensive. For surround sound in concerts and movies the Oppo is great since the K-01x doesn't do surround sound. I have a two channel system and a separate HT system in different rooms to maximize my enjoyment of each.

I have an Esoteric K-01x and an Oppo BDP-105. I connect them with the same high end power cables and interconnects, and I set the digital filter on the Esoteric to match the Oppo’s non-adjustable FIR filter when I’ve make comparisons.

Playing an identical cd on both, I switch inputs on my preamp to compare how each sounds. I adjust volume on my Levinson preamp to be as equal as I can. Given the different emphasis on certain frequencies between the players, the best I can do is get the average volume as close as possible. If you have a different digital filter engaged on the Esoteric, the emphasis on certain frequencies becomes greater.

The difference between the players, to me, is not as great as I expected. That’s not to say that once you hear the Esoteric, you can un-hear it, but I could live with either.

The soundstage on the Esoteric is more sophisticated as opposed to flatter on the Oppo, there are finer variations of tonal color on the Esoteric versus the Oppo, and both of those characteristics of the Esoteric seem to reveal a hint more detail because it’s as if you get a better view of a particular note, voice, or sound. To make an analogy, I think about it like viewing something straight where you just see the front versus viewing something a bit off center where you can see the front, side and a measure depth of what you’re looking at.

It’s worth noting noise floor of the Esoteric is lower than the Oppo, as well. But it’s noted by comparison - mainly I’ve heard it at the end of some songs where there are slight sounds or notes that you didn’t think were as clear as they are as when heard on the Esoteric.

What’s interesting is when I put a better interconnect on the Oppo as opposed to what I usually use on both players - it actually levels the playing field to an extent where some of the points I describe that make the Esoteric excel over the Oppo are no longer as great.

There are things I like about the Oppo, too. I like that it has a slight bit of accentuated bass and warmth. That bit of bass propels the music.

Truly I could live with either player, especially knowing how the character of the Oppo can be tweaked with power cables and interconnects. And for serious listening, you have to turn off the display on the Oppo it lowers the noise floor and better helps you hear those very soft details.

The differences I noted between both players increased when I got better speakers, too.

There are a lot of variables. One of my takeaways is that I wouldn’t overspend on my digital device in the context of an entire system, including the area of your home you listen in. I think the Oppo can fit in with a high end system, very well. I would think the Esoteric benefits could be under appreciated except in systems with more commensurate gear or a carefully designed listening space.

I don’t plan on getting an Oppo UDP-205 in the immediate future, but if it sounds better than the BDP-105, as has been reported, I’d find it compelling for all that it offers.

Interestingly, I bought the Modwright BDP-105D, a few years ago, and compared it to my BDP-95, and I did not like the Modwright unit. I tube rolled and did everything I could but it didn’t work in my system for some reason. I sold it and bought a stock Oppo BDP-105D and was much, much happier. Then I wound up getting an Esoteric K-01x because I needed to experience what I thought I was missing. And there's no question it's a better player, but I wouldn't say it's 15 times better, which is roughly the price difference between the players.

@amg56

Sorry if it offends you, but yes, your statement is inaccurate.

Last time I checked the English dictionary, and given the context of this forum in particular, "watch" and "listen" are essentially synonymous with video and audio, respectively.

Even after your most recent post in response to mine, I'm still at a loss to understand you, however, frankly I'm no longer trying.

Your premise that the main gist of the thread is audio performance is also inaccurate. Again, I refer you to the English dictionary.

Also worth mentioning is that I've been posting in this thread for months, since its inception back in August/September 2017. I note you recently entered the fray. Nice of you to join, but from what I've read from you in particular it would seem you have nothing but opinion and incorrect information to offer. Opinion is fine. Incorrect information is not.

I've owned the Oppo 205 since day one of its public release. Trust me, I have right-of-passage.

"Some folks look for answers, Others look for fights". Presumably you'll understand the musical reference.

If you want to watch or listen economically, get the Oppo-205.

If you want to watch or listen well get the Oppo-205 and send it to Modwright.

As I thought, the modifications have nothing to do with video. Therefore, it's unclear the relevance/accuracy of the word "watch" in the aforementioned quotation. 

http://www.modwright.com/modifications/oppo-udp205-modification.php

If you want to watch or listen economically, get the Oppo-205.

If you want to watch or listen well get the Oppo-205 and send it to Modwright.

Does Modwright do "anything" with the video? I thought their modifications were strictly audio related.

atacgene, I don't believe Esoteric makes a surround sound SACD player. I have had a K-03 and now have a K-01x and they are both exceptional for SACD stereo sound.

Hmm, may I ask those who has had listened to the esoteric SACD player what models are they ? I am thinking of getting a second hand exoteric mainly for SACD surround sound. 

I dont care for Marantz sound at all but I understand why some people may prefer it.

@shadorne ,
I was listening to Jennifer Warne's "The Well" SACD last night and it sounded so good. I have not heard it so musical and detailed, even with my older Marantz SA-8260, which is considered warm.

With Esoteric, you're comparing dedicated audio disc players costing five figures with a universal/BDP player costing less than $2K.

They both are highly lauded and have their places and you would be happy with either. In the end, how much do you want to spend?

Good choice of speaker. I don’t think the latest ESS chips sound digital harsh - I think it is more analog sounding than previous generations but with a remarkable clarity. I don’t know about the Oppo implementation but based on their track record I think you picked a very practical, flexible and solid winner rather than an obsolete but superb expensive boat anchor.

@gdhal ,
I have 0% use for the Oppo as a video player. The Oppo is in a dedicated listening room without any video playback. In fact all the setups on the Oppo can be done via the app - so no video required. I have set up the Oppo for 2-channel listening. I have not paid much attention to the DACs, it is on the default setting.
But this does not mean that I am regretting my choice. I really like the Oppo. It is just that I am not finding it as harsh as folks make it out to be.

@2psyop ,
I don't think that the Oppo is a hype at all. It makes some beautiful music.The price to performance ratio is pretty high. My point was, is sounding "hi-fi" really what people call the "real deal", or is it sounding smooth that is the "real deal". This player does not sound bright as some people make it to be. I think people make up their minds based on other's experience, or what they heard.

@shadorne ,
I will be getting the ProAc D48Rs. Yes, I do understand what you are saying. The ProAcs are a B--I--I--I--I--I--G stretch for me. But the idea was to do it right after spending so much time and money on a speaker that I was looking for, for the past 2 years.

@milpai

With all due respect what speakers are you getting? I think Esoteric is waisted on anything other than SOTA top of the line speakers (between 5 and 10 times the cost of the source).

I am trying to tackle your "is it worth it?" question....and I am suggesting the answer is that it really depends on the quality of your speakers (the highest distorting and lowest fidelity part of any digital setup).

stan5468-
which player did you purchase?
Happy Listening!

I find it strange - I find this player a bit too smooth, even from day one.

@milpai 

First off, congratulations on obtaining your new Oppo.

I'm not exactly sure what "a bit too smooth" means to you, however, I did mention previously in this thread that regardless of how much "better" (or different) the Esoteric is, I must assume you purchased the Oppo for video as well. And if that is the case, you made the right choice.

And, while I'm sure you know this, you probably haven't time yet to "investigate" the DAC filter options. And they can and do tweak the sound. So presumably you can find one that sounds best to your ears.

And, if all else fails and you are dissatisfied, assuming you purchased the unit direct from Oppo, you can return it within 30 days.

Best of luck with it!

Sometimes, I think, we succumb to the hype of a product. You may have committed to the Oppo before this post was written and want it to compete with a much more refined system and player ....but still wanted it. I guess, in all fairness, I am not suprised you hear a big difference. Two different players, at separate price points and with different engineering. I really don’t see Esoteric as a middle of the road CD player. Never spotted one at a Best Buy and I doubt many are sold on Amazon. Some here have had both the Oppo and the Esoteric brand. They are not the same kind of audio players.

Audio comparisons with a few days in between, and without levels matched, are misleading.