I'd love to hear the impressions of people who've actually spent some time with these speakers to share their sense of their plusses and minuses. Mapman here on Audiogon is a big fan, and has shared lots on them, but I'm wondering who else might be familiar with them.
My aunt raised her family in a very small formerly thriving coal mining town north of Harrisburg Pa. She was my mothers younger sister and the two of them always looked out for each other. Her youngest son and I grew up together and still see each other regularly. Her husband passed away a few years ago after suffering from Altzheimers Disease. He was an air gunner in Europe during WWII. They don't make 'em like those two anymore. 🏆
peter, as a 'senior' myself, I don't remember our conversations but will trust yours. ;) Time is not kind to our wetware...*G*
For all of my previous rant (and pardon me, in retrospect it does come off a tad harsh...), I do fully agree. Ohm makes and markets a great line of good products at reasonable price points. And backs that with a guarantee and (I've heard...well, read...) good service. A first class act, that. *S* And more power to them...
I've had the honor and pleasure of some communication with Mr. Harder. His biggest point and hint to me was that my cones are too heavy, which gets no argument from me. I'm working on that...*G* And he's spent much time and treasure perfecting his take on the full range Walsh, and will get no competition from me. Making the full range version is a daunting prospect for a DIY'er. The only thing that could be more difficult is to duplicate an MBL101....but I know someone who is doing just that...and ribbon Heil form elements as well by others.
I'm satisfied with what I've been able to accomplish so far, but am fully aware that they've got their imperfections and 'warts'. But like a parent with a handicapped child, I'm proud that they work as well as they do for what they are.
You can find them and hear them on YouTube, BTW. Excuse the mess and the lousy audio; I hope to exhibit the next version in stereo with decent mics at least...;)
As stated elsewhere, if one finds themselves in WNC, I've an open invite to any who'd like to hear them in person. I'm open to critique by ears better tuned than mine. I am taking a slightly radical approach in what I'm doing, but no one has told me not to do it, either. Just the opposite, actually...
So...I will carry on...and try not to bite quite as quickly when one speaks of things Walsh. ;) At least I've had my shots and been neutered. *L*
I for one care deeply about technology. Learning and applying it has been my career for well over 30 years. Hifi’s are just a hobby for me. The technology interests me greatly though because understanding it means being better able to enjoy the music.
There seem to be 2 camps here; those that are interested in the technical side and those that aren't. I don't see why those that are on either side need to disparage the other. Why not just let the stories unfold and contribute when you have something constructive to say. Leave your egos and bruised emotions aside and let the chips fall where they may. This thread is about Ohm speakers and how they sound and not about the feelings of the posters. BTW, John S. is perfectly capable of defending himself if he wants to and doesn't need any help.
For me its all about the sound. If it sounds best to me that’s all that matters and the OHMs still do for me both at lower price points and highest.
Granted there is a lot of very good sounding competition out there but still nothing I know of that sounds and works as good for me at competitive price points. Good meaning most hours of time spent listening to all kinds of music at any volume over almost 10 years going now with my current OHMs..
JS is definitely goes for delivering his sound as affordable as possible in a way that works best for most in their homes and does not seem to care about what people might think about bling and parts used. In other words I do not think he cares at all about "high end audio" only good sound.
When I read his blogs on his site it only convinces me more that this MIT educated guy knows exactly what he is doing perhaps as well as anyone.
Regarding cost and competition if one is smart about how they go about it there are many ways to get better OHMs for less. My F5 series 3 OHMs, essentially equivalent to current 5000s that list for over $6K (lots of really good $6K speakers out there but none I know of sound the same) ended up costing me $2400 with summer sale pricing (should be coming up again in June) and maximizing trade in for 40% discount trading in two old pair of refurbishable OHMs (my old Walsh 2s and a pair of old C2s I picked up on ebay for about $100 and had shipped straight to OHM for the trade-in).
The Ls I refurbed myself with a pair of $400 Morel woofers sound very good but I suspect a refurbed pair from JS for $500 total would sound even better even with less $$$s in raw parts because I have no doubt JS can design speakers better than I and for less.
IMHO, I agree that current Ohm Walsh speakers are not true Walsh designs. That said, I am aware that true Walsh driver based speakers are available (German Physiks, Dale Harder, and a few others). But with one exception, the prices are generally much higher than the Ohm products. That exception is the guy that makes tube amps and a few different speakers and has an omni with a ribbon tweeter for ~$2500. I can’t recall the name right now (senior moment). So, when evaluating Ohm products, I look at the value proposition. I think John Strohbeen is a master of speaker voicing, and has produced an inexpensive line of high-performance quasi-omni speakers that kick much of the competition (price-wise) in the pants. So, for those of us with neither the money for an HHR product or the time and know-how for DIY, Ohm offers quite an attractive alternative. Plus, most of the competing omnis do not offer a 120 in-home trial, which was a big factor in my purchase decision.
Rebbi - nice to see you here again. Thanks to this thread that you started, I ended up with my 2000s, and they may well be my last speakers (if I don’t win the lottery and buy a pair of German Physiks or MBLs!). Sorry for your loss.
Just an update: My 2000s have been in the same position for over seven years. When I got my Sound Anchor craddle bases for them, I toed them in slightly for what I assumed would be a somewhat warmer sound, with a little less treble energy (since the tweeters would now intersect in front of me, rather than being aimed at me ears). I have been happy this way, although I have long wished for a more widespread soundstage (it is wide, but weighted in the center), and better image stability with changing frequencies (the images can sometimes shift about the soundstage, unnaturally). Well, a few things I read on line made me curious enough to reposition them, aiming them straight ahead so that the tweeters point roughly at my ears. Whoa! I can’t believe the difference from such a small shift in position. The first night, I did notice some unpleasant sharpness on brass and electric guitar recordings, but since I didn’t listen to these prior to repositioning, it could have been the recordings. But Sunday night, I had a long, exquisite listening session in which nearly every track was wonderful. The soundstage is bigger, wider, and more evenly distributed. The highs seemed cleaner, more stable and more filigreed (a quality I associate with expensive speakers). I got chills up my spine. Then I realized that the last time I had them aimed straight ahead was during my trial period, when they were on my uneven basement floor before the bases arrived. I also realized that I have changed some things in my rig since then, most notably the preamp (from C-J PV11 to McIntosh C220), as well as some cable upgrades, and repositioned my amp to be closer to the speakers and shortened the speaker cables.
Sorry for the long-winded post, but I was quite happy Sunday night as I sat there grinning at how good everything sounded. And I have a new IC on the way to connect my DAC to my preamp. So, even though I was thinking that it just can’t get any better than this, maybe it can!
If I understand the principles of a Walsh driver correctly, any driver can function as one but only certain ones make good ones. Knowing how to find or fabricate those seems to be the trick. It's been proven doable for limited range in the lower frequencies with OHM and higher frequencies with German Physiks and Harder seems to to best carry the torch regarding full range Walsh speakers.
It looks like the forum police stole my last post.....must be my dirty mouth Im guessing.
asvjerryif I read that right (I might be wrong) I said something wrong about your knowledge when it comes to the Walsh driver??? We actually spoke about five years ago as I was in the market for a set of speakers. Unfortunately I had cancer and $10k was a little strong at the time, especially not knowing if I would be kicking a year later or not. I bought the 4/5000 not knowing much about The speaker, but I liked the originals so I took a leap of faith. When I got them I was basically out of it for about a year physically and mentally. But slowly I realized that something was missing. They did sound great with most music, but I was missing something. And that's basically how things started. Im not going over the story (if interested go back many many pages and read it from the beginning, it's a fun crazy read. A few days ago I started to think that there might be a better 12" woofer/midrange driver ot there somewhere. Something that cost more but might give me an extended midrange clean up to 4khz and wouldn't you believe it, there it was about $250 not bad, so I might get a pair to try em out see if I can squeak out a little bit more out of the "Walsh" driver idea. Love to try one of Jerrys babies.....hmmm
OK...obviously and obliviously I stuck MHO into an ongoing 'discussion'.
Please allow me to hit 'pause' and explain self and my opinions. Not that I'm right...that could be considered 'unusual', esp. if you queried my spouse about that, but that's another subject for a entirely different forum...*S*
Mapman.....far be it from me to say your Ohms are not good speakers, nor good omnis. I have, in the past, even suggested to those who would consider that approach to reproduction to 'give them a go'. One soul, last we chatted, still owns the pair he bought and wouldn't consider anything he's heard since. I will count That as a plus on my karma as an audio fan.
They Really Do Sound Good....But....they still are not a true Walsh radiator. Upon opening their innards, or just perusing the pics on Google Pics, what one sees is a (granted) carefully selected woofer, face down. Above it is a dome tweeter, again, carefully selected.
Contrasted with the images of the Original Ohms, there's a Big Disconnect. One that Ohm (the company) is quite aware of. Yes, the current product does function to an extent of the originals. The physics involved still work, but they have opted to offer is
a variant that
is easier to fabricate and produce on a large scale. As a business person myself, I'll be the last mortal to argue and say they shouldn't do this. You like it, bought it, still have it, everyone walks away happy....;)
peterr53...I have done my 'homework'. I've studied the Walsh patent, even studied the Hegeman patent that predates it but has remarkable similarities. I've been the 'driving force' (of sorts) of 3 forums eliciting commentary from all and any that would care to comment. Hopefully constructive, and that has occurred. I've chatted with those who 'have been There', and are able to suggest or provide observations that I've taken into account. If I could communicate with the spirit of L. Walsh, I'd do it in a heartbeat....
So...Don't tell me that I Don't Know What a Walsh Speaker IS. Or WHY.
As previously stated, I'm doing my own 'variant'...similar to the German Physiks, but slightly larger. Having learned that the originals STILL operated as a 'piston driver' as opposed to one creating 'pure' radial energies I've opted to 'cut off' the lower bass frequencies and hand them off to a sub. Said sub runs 'higher' than one could consider 'typical', but we can discuss 'trade-offs' if you'd care to PM me....
I've been at this 'quixotic quest' for awhile now, doing the improbable with not very much. I'm 'upping my game' of late, Better Everything. I have a modicum of support from a lot of people, some of which used to be in 'the business' of audio....
So...I think that's about I'll infer for now about What I Know. If you like, PM me. I'll be more than happy to chat you up further. Even if it's only MHO...which there's a lot of that about....here....IMHO....;)
....and turning a woofer 'face down' is Easy. I've done it. The next step...
Not so much....
And I'd still prefer to be a friend to you, Maps....Really....
Peter of course everything can be improved. I said just that Right here just a bit ago.
If it were me I would focus solely on what I am doing and why. No reason exists to discredit or question the work or decisions of others proven work along the way. Thats all. Especially when building on the work of said others. Has all to do with right and wrong ways to go about things with other people and nothing to do with technology.
I don't understand Mapman.... Are you telling us that questioning certain things means you have no class? Im sure you didn't mean that, did you?
Questioning of technology helps to move technology forward, companys improving, products improving. It's a win, win all the way around. If I was John I would read what's said here (I'm sure he does hi John) take certain things to heart, improve and move the product forward in a positive way, not just make them more expensive. Sorry for the death in the family.
Sorry to hear that. Coincidentally a very dear elderly aunt of mine just passed last night. 93years old and always on good health and still sharp as a knife prior. The last of our parents generation some of which were Eyropean born and immigrants as children escaping the horrors overseas that were soon to reach their climax.
@mapman Thanks! Things are okay... lost my dad at the beginning of April, which has been very hard. But other than that things are good. Upgraded to the Spatial M3 Turbo S and I'm really enjoying them.
Fugdged??? That you're a fanboy....Mapman just own it, doesn't make you a bad guy just a fanboy.
Wrong like "it's not a Walsh driver" I would listen to an expert in Walsh drivers IE. asvjerry
Thats all I'm trying to do "Mapman" improve upon the original copy of the Walsh driver.
Did that kind of answer your kind "questions"
Remember it's suppose to be fun.........🇸🇪
PS. Mapman you'll have a standing invitation to hear my speakers when they're done. I also wanted to figure out what to call them. So I decided to call the "Oh-my"
Asvjerry thank you, I understand that being a fanboy is cool, and guess what, I was for 35 years with Nikon and couldn't stand Canon or the people that bought one. Now that's ridiculous right! But I was blinded by my fan boy ship (now I laugh about it).
Jerry is very, very right, there's no Walsh technology in the modern Walsh speaker none. It's Omni directional but some of it is wrong.....Yes it's weird that they're not using a rear tweeter as most of the frequencies are cut of above 2.3khz. It blew me away when I added the rear tweeter.
On another note, it was a great race day. Ferrari won at Monaco....Finally after a dry spell Italy is happy today. The Indy 500.. Wow boring it ain't ever, and after realizing that my boy Alonso made it clear that winning the race was a possibility the friggin Honda engine gave up in a cloud of smoke.....a total bummer, but I hope Alonso quits F1 and come over here for Indy racing....🇸🇪
Peter53, what drove me to 'roll my own' omnis is the fact that Ohm's speakers, nice as they are and as well as they work, are Not true Walsh speakers. A quick glance at the innards of them vs. an original A or F makes that obvious. Inverting a woofer and parking a dome tweeter above it is not a duplication; it's a 'fudge'.
I can understand the Why they are. But given the physics involved as to How the originals worked and the way they were constructed to take advantage of what was going on 'under the hood'....no surprise as to their 'opt out', if you will.
I've taken a somewhat different approach with my efforts, closer to the German Physiks versions but going to a vertically stacked 2 way and tapping on the Infinity 'ice cream cone' variant for the tweeter. My 'woofer' cones are a tad larger than the GP's, and running a sub for the lower bass.
I'm pretty happy with them...but there's still lots of room for improvement, which is what occupies me of late. And they're still less expensive, as long as I ignore the 'man hours' involved...*L*
Any pursuit off the beaten track has its' price...*S*
BTW I have a pair of very nice Dynaudio Contour 1.3mkII monitors (top notch build quality and drivers including Isotar tweeters) with matching Dynaudio stands that are sitting idle currently. I have been thinking about selling them to finance a pair of subs to go with my other small monitors. ANyone interested let me know. I’d like to sell local and not have to deal with shipping the large heavy stands.
Its a safe bet anything can always be made better either objectively or subjectively. Definitively is a little tougher.
OHM does many things to help provide value in good sound for their customers. No need to recap all that here.
Having been around and pretty much seen and heard it all, value and utility are the parameters I value in this stuff alongside of good sound of course.
Having said that, my home-tweaked OHM Ls are getting more play time these days than any of my other similar "high end" monitors. I did refurbish them myself a few years back. THe 8" Morel woofers I picked up used alone cost almost as much as the speakers did when I acquired them in 1978. Cheap paper tweeters and crossover are still original.
Hi Peter I for one are interested in your quest to perfect the Ohm speaker . I have a set of 2-2000s and feel they could use some refinement in the upper frequency range . I added some super tweeters to my set up and find the results to be positive . I feel that a tweeter upgrade would improve there performance . The other thing would be running them without the cans . I would like to buy a set of raw drivers that are in the 2000s to start fresh and add some high quality tweeters and crossover components .The Ohm design has some great qualities the main one is coherence and no box coloration
@peterr53 .. seems to me your project, which you have freely shared here in this long-running thread, has become nothing but a disparaging critique of JS and Ohm. While it’s all been fascinating to some degree, I think a separate thread of your own would be more appropriate. BTW, my MicroWalsh Talls are 11 years old now and still making beautiful music.
Hehe... Give me a break, I can afford a $5k speaker thank you. And if you can't understand what I'm saying I feel for you.
The idea here is not to put anyone here at blame as I only know one person as far as I know at this forum.
But If you, or I are putting our hard earned cash on to any particular product ( not necessarily Ohm) we expect a certain amount of quality and workmanship commensurate with the amount you pay.
That didn't happen for me, the trust and excitement went away as soon as I opened the "Can".
This project is for me, I'm not in the business to sell or build speaker and won't. But I think I can take the concept further, improve were I think it's necessary and with that making me happy and hopefully write some fun stories and some insight in to my crazy mind and ideas.
The weekend is here and I'm excited as both F1 in Monaco and Indy 500 with one of my favorite drivers (Alonso) driving. So it will be breakfast and brunch time racing for me......🇸🇪
I forgot one thing his speaker are not affordable at all, and there's a lot of amazing sounding sub $500 speakers in the market place.....That's affordable and build way nicer than the Ohm's Mapman before you have a stroke, I didn't ever say they're not sounding great they actually do. But they could be better.....
Do you know why I started to build the speakers? After opening the can of the small mini's, and having the shock of my life! The workmanship being so poor that not even a first time speaker builder would have the balls to "glue" together such abysmal product. Yes it's built in a "can" but that shouldn't give them the license to sell crap. If you don't believe me I'll be more that happy to show everyone the mess I payed big dollars for.
And if one product shows such disregard to decent workmanship, the chance all of them have the same problem. I understand you're a fanboy and that's OK, and I don't have issues with that per say, but when you know there's a problem ( Ohm replaced/fixed two cans for me and it doesn't surprise me one bit looking inside the "Can"). Call John tell him that there's a problem and customers might be catching on to the issues and he could very easily up the quality to make the product worth the asking price.
And finally if you done something for 40years, there likely two options how things go.
One: you're so tired of all the crap, your on autopilot and stay on because you're making money.
Two: you love what you do and strive to do things better every day. No one can question the quality and ethics of your brand, and can't wait to get back to the office in the morning.
The effort went into making it affordable, sound great and being reliable. I don’t think JS cares nearly as much about the looks. Certainly not as much as many competitors.
You can always go into business and see how it pans out. OHM has been doing their thing their way for over 40 years now and still kicking so they got a bit of a head start.
One thing I've come to realize of late even more so than ever is the right know how, usually obtained through years of experience, can easily trump relying mainly on fancy parts and bling. That's the magic of OHM and other companies of the same ilk, both large and small.
But cutting corners is cutting corners. Yes you are making the "bottom line" for the company and share holders. At some point you got to take a look at the competition and say........Damn $5000 is getting an amazing value, beautiful cabinetry and custom built drivers to meet custom specs.
Look at the 4/5000 (my speakers) The cost of all the hardware including "Walsh" driver, tweeter switches, crossover, wiring, and speaker connector will barely cost $175. Give or take $20. Ohm buys used cabinets for $200 on average, Barely touch the inside (might add a brace or two). Veneers the cabinet which nowadays is so easy and simple due to the veneers being layed out on either wood or paper veneer, you add contact cement (or its pre-glued) voila done.....
So what I'm trying to say is that not much effort went in to the product to make more than $4000 in profit.
Does it sound great...Sure it does, but with some better engineering, better parts, and more love put in to the speaker it could be totally amazing.
Not worth debating because we all know measurable facts are not needed in high end audio to back up assertions. But it does cast the proven design decisions of others in a negative light. Each may have their own unique design goals. Your's suit you. A business must have the collective goals of their customers in mind.
More wires, resistors, or other circuitry in front of the drivers will add or change the signal integrity in a negative way. I'm not saying it doesn't sound good in many circumstances (like many Ohm speakers) but it could sound better with more micro details, faster response, better imaging and overal more air in the presentation.
Wire gauge only matters over longer distances and more so when high current is needed as well I believe.
High quality amps and other hifi gear are chock full of wiring and electronics like this and sound great as do my OHM 5s. My Ohm 100s do not have this circuitry. If there is a negative difference in sound its beyond anything I can hear. The 5/5000 level adjustment circuits make placement in a variety of rooms much easier and result in better net sound as a result.
Of course, if one does not need that kind of adjustments and flexibility for their application, I would not pay for it nor apply it. Either way works out fine. Its a small issue if one at all on the grand scale of audio sound quality issues.
Back again for some thoughts on the EQ in the 5000 driver. If anyone would see the amount of wires (very thin wires) and switches with amazingly thin gauge jumpers between the switching network and the x-over electronics, they would question the need for anything bigger than zip chord from amp to speaker. https://www.flickr.com/photos/147883144@N08/shares/T605D2
Here's an image of the switcher innards, the small metal bridge is actually the switch. Not big enough to properly feed the signal un-interrupted. With my design all the drivers will be fed the signal directly from the amp.....should be amazing.
I do have a semi dedicated listening/home theater room (family room). I do find the sound better and more focused when I can disperse/diffuse the back sound field. I use art, plants, sculptures, soft surfaces, and wow it does make a big difference. With that said, as some of you know, I did add a rear tweeter in the mix just to see what would happen, I was so taken by the extra depth, focus and overall reinforcement of the sound field (with a volume control) that my new speakers will have both front and rear matching tweeter. I am adding EQ with the electronic x-over which I think is the way to go. No space or acoustic environment is perfect, so being able to fine tune the system to the room is totally smart...
Omnis are, and will remain, the odd and distinctive animal in the speaker zoo...
They demand care in placement (location, location, location....we're heard that elsewhere, right?).
They will be effected by the space they're in...the size, the materials within it, and the shape and proportions of said space.
To eq or no will be subject to above, the equipment 'upstream' (gee, what a surprise...), what's being played, how it was mixed, and (of course) taste.
The fact that this thread stretches 52 pages is amazing. Particularly to me...*G*
And the fact that the reviewer in the posted review can only put the Ohms up against the German Physiks? At that price spread? Damn....
There's other omnis...are they 'also rans', or has the field narrowed to that degree?
By now everyone nows that the "Walsh" driver falls of dramatically after about 2.4k which meens we have to x-over the tweeter as close to that frequency give or take a few hundred hz. The ribbon tweeter I originally was going to use, likes to be crossed over at about 2.2k-2.4k with a fairly aggressive slope. The newer tweeter is easier to drive (98db) and I can blend it in way lower at 1.6k with no issues and for the back fill I'll use the older version. More money but I think it'll be worth it in the long run.
Had an opportunity to talk to the importer of the tweeter units, and found out that they are coming out with an upgraded unit....lol So the question is, should I go with the "old" style tweeter or should I spend more and get the new units.....Damn! And oh-well.
Yes that is the 5000 driver, due to all the glue and other leftovers from the "Cage" i decided I needed new drivers as they will be in the open. But John and the crew had scraped and minimized any proof or name of manufacturer. So I scanned the internets and voila......Wouldn't you know it, there it was in all its glory lol Now I do have to add some doping to the paper cone and I want to cut of some ugly metal tabs most likely used in the paint process.
Today I started to lay out the tweeter bridge, I'm using a 3/4" aluminum plates laser cut and CNC machined. The whole tweeter assembly will float on a magnetic repulsion system......totally cool me thinks😎
If you look at my review, although I do run my 2000s each with their own sub (first order cross-over @80Hz), I did run them briefly full range. The bass extension and output was surprisingly deep, even and strong. I think you’ll be fine, especially since you are getting the larger 3000 driver.
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