Love the new site. But, it look slike black ash veneer is no longer an option. I love my 2000s and center in black. Some day, I want a pair of wall-mounts for the rear-surround channels, and I'd like them to be black as well. Maybe this is a custom order?
Frazeurl: I have long guessed that tube amps sound louder because their distortion products are pleasant. If a SS amp begins to distort, you would either turn it down or off. But the distortion and clipping characteristics of a tube design would not stop most people from listening. Since we hear distortion as loudness, tube amps are said to sound louder given the same rated output before clipping. My $0.02 |
Coot, 100 watts/tube=500 watts/ss, if this were the case, an awful lot of people would have given up on solid state a long time ago. This just isn't so and is another hi-fi myth. I don't think I have ever seen quite this amount of exaggeration though to be honest. Watts are watts into the same load.
At any rate, within the amplifiers capability and not clipping, tube or solid state will work into the Ohms, just depends on how loud you like it and how big the space you have to fill. Many have tried tubes, some stay with one or the other. A matter of flavor at times, others a matter of drive and dynamics. Finding a good match that you like with Ohms is what matters most, your ears, your system. Enjoy them! Tim |
Coot,
I would qualify that somewhat further and say in a smaller room, with smaller OHMs perhaps, and for certain musical and listening tastes/preferences, OHMs alone + a modest power tube amp alone might fit the bill. The bigger the room, and the more demand for good extended bass, the less chance of a smaller, lower maintenance tube amp cutting it alone I think.
OHM + modest tube amp will certainly work, especially at lower to moderate volume. A lot has to do with personal preferences and situation. |
Coot,
I might consider a tube amp if not for the cost and maintenance issues. Teh tube amp would haveto have way more tubes than I would care to tend to to have a chance of maxing out the OHMS at higher volumes. Using a sub and offloading much of the low end to that opens up more possibilities in regards to using a tube amp to maximum effect. |
Aside from maintenance issues, what would be your reason(s) for not using a tube amp for for Ohms? Just curious as I understand 100W tubed = ~500W SS. |
Well now there it is! Nice. |
Aargh! I go one day without checking this thread or reading my emails and the new web site comes out and the offer to find error comes in my e-mail.
Well, I sent John a list of 26-28 errors. I am hoping at least four of them were ones you guys missed. :) At least it will be cleaned up a bit.
Agree with all the comments above: The site looks much, much better, there should be more photos (what is a pancake center channel anyway?), and some "click-through" links too. |
The new website looks great. Anyone know when /if the pics of the various center channels will be up?
I have a nice ohm center but its a bit tall and was wondering what the pancake and other versions look like. |
Hallelujah!!!!
It's about time that 1990's style website got a makeover! :^)
THanks John S! |
The new website ohmspeaker.com is kinda shocking. Moped to rocketship overnight. If John is reading this, the only thing missing is an easy "click thru" to a photo of each model from the data sheet page. Other than that, welcome to the new millennium, Ohm! |
New website? The link is not working .. help! |
I think the new site is definately a big step in the right direction, been a loooong time coming. About the only thing I see is that more pictures of each model would be a good thing, and that may be in the works still. I am sure like most things, it is a work in progress. Lets just hope that it isn't another 20 years before it is finished! Only kidding John, well done! |
"Oh, and the sub based on the old F cabinet looks like it might be a beast!"
How can you tell? I wanted to see it but could not find a photo.
Other than that its an excellent site! |
The new Ohm site is pretty incredible. It's like they just time-jumped from the early 90's to day in one leap.
If nothing else, take a look at the impressive lineup of center channel speakers. Oh,m and surround speakers
Oh, and the sub based on the old F cabinet looks like it might be a beast!
Definitely worth a visit to check it out. |
Oops! My bad- the new website lists the 5000's at $3250 EACH, the same price currently for a pair. Anyway, the website is much improved find a mistake, email John, and he will take 10% off the price of a new set of speakers- limit 4 per customer. |
Have you guys seen the new Ohm website? http://ohmspeaker.com It's a beta site, much better than the current version, plus there is an incentive to find errors. I can't believe it, but the Ohm 5000 talls are priced at $3250, instead of the current $6500. No kidding! Check it out. |
"I sympathize with (and fully understand) the desire to protect your intellectual property (I'd NEVER download music illegally for this reason), but I suspect that D-Sonic will lose sales over this decision."
As do I and I would suspect Dennis is fully aware of the risk. Who can say if he will lose many sales, although I can say he lost a sale to me. |
Peter,
I see this as a potential marketing mistake. At the end of the day, this is a hobbyist purchase. People frequently base their purchase decision on their view of the particular technology as much as the product's performance. If you could hide the fact that your SET amp employed 300B tubes, would you?
I sympathize with (and fully understand) the desire to protect your intellectual property (I'd NEVER download music illegally for this reason), but I suspect that D-Sonic will lose sales over this decision.
Of course, I could be wrong. |
My point is D-Sonic has been around for a while now and folks have already heard their previous iterations. The new amps are supposed to be improved. How so? New amp modules (plus whatever else). OK. Many of us have already heard class-d amps and have an idea of what they sound like in general and yes, every manufacturer has their own build/sound, but I would like a more compelling reason to try the amp(s) out other than "it/they sound great". If I want to take a chance I still have to pay for shipping and a restock fee.
"An in-home trial period of 21 days is available. This can be extended by email at the discretion of D-Sonic. If the unit is returned in factory condition and packaging, customer pays shipping both ways plus a 10% restock charge. Unit must be insured to full value."
So .. I don't expect any manufacturer to give away the farm so-to-speak but most will provide SOME info including what amp modules they are using (Bel Canto & W4S for example). No I'm not obligated to purchase, nor am I compelled. |
" I could be way off on this, but even the D-Sonic amps include a circuit board and other parts of the signal/power chain that are of Dennis' own selection (if not design)."
Maybe, but I am under the impression that this is not the case from what I have read and seen to date. I do not know Dennis's background, but I get the impression from what I have read that this is not his area of expertise.
But you are right that many or perhaps most even (not sure) Class D amp vendors in recent years add circuitry to improve or tweak performance.
It's quite possible from what I read that with teh newer Class D amp module technologies available currently, there is little need to do much more. That may well be the case with D-Sonic now, though it was not the case when they were using Icepower as their main engine. |
Mapman: I am not sure I agree with you on Class D amps. While many Class D manufacturers take OEM modules, almost all of them have their own approach to power supplies, input stages, etc. AFAIK, the amp module itself can be made to sound drasticly different depending on the builder's choices for these and other parts of the finished product. Heck, your Bel Cantos use an OEM Class D module, don't they? Yet they are known to sound much better than other brands using the same modules. I could be way off on this, but even the D-Sonic amps include a circuit board and other parts of the signal/power chain that are of Dennis' own selection (if not design). Just my $0.02. |
As a manufacturer it blows me away that anyone would expect a manufacturer to just openly give away the specifics about anything he makes. In todays world with widespread copying of every single minutia, I congratulate Dennis for standing strong, and not give anyone proprietary info no matter how much you think he owes it to you. I had one of my parts stolen from me, copied all the way down to my own f*uck-up (misaligned holes) in a diverter and the offender (chinese) didn't give a crap if I was upset or if I would call my lawyer.
Peter |
YEs, I thought the same thing regarding D-Sonic and JS/OHM.
One downside with OHM that results is that many CLS drivers look the same on the outside but are different by design internally. That makes it very hard to know exactly what you are getting second hand. Even direct from OHM, you do not know anything for sure really about whats inside, only how it sounds.
One difference is that what makes the OHM sound is JS/OHMs design, whereas in the case of D-Sonic, what makes it is determined by what amp module is used, and D-Sonic does not design or make that hence they have limited control of that over the long term. AMp A today, amp B tomorrow? How are they different? How is the sound affected, etc? Very hard to say, whereas with OHM I think JS designs his products to have a particular sound and he has a lot of control over how to do that, especially given the nature of Walsh drivers and how those are quite tunable to produce a certain result. |
Wtf: Exactly! Dennis is not obligated to disclose information about his amps, and you are not obligated to buy one. Similarly, witness the absence of Magnepan reviews in Stereophile. Stereophile requires bench testing for all full reviews in the magazine. That's the editor's prerogative. Magnepan won't allow this bench testing, because of the unique nature of their speakers, which produces, in their view, test results inconsistant with the speakers' performance. Magnepan's prerogative, and an impass. So, no Stereophile reviews of Magnepan speakers. I guess Dennis would rather lose some sales than disclose information which he feels gives him a competitive edge. For every audiophile who skips D-Sonic amps because of this, there is probably another one, like me, who cares mostly about the way the sausage tastes, not how it's made. YMMV, as they say.
And, I must say, that this topic is very relevent to a thread on Ohm speakers, since John Strohbeen is somewhat quiet on some of the ingredients of his own special sauce. |
"Regarding the OEM source of the amp modules in D-Sonics amps, if you read the 6Moons review, you'll see that Dennis ain't talkin'. IMHO, that's his prerogative. It's all about the sound. If the amp sounds good, what difference does it make, really, which amp modules he is using?"
Bondmanp, I see your point but in our internet-centric audiophile world, competition almost demands disclosure. We are after all, obsessive-compulsive types and we NEED to know because it is also OUR prerogative to pass. There is simply too much competition to not disclose IMO. |
A solid foundation is key to getting best performance out of the Walshes for sure!
My 5's are in the basement on thin carpet over concrete foundation! Rock solid and perfect! No problems.
My smaller 100S3s are on main level, with typical plywood floor structure used in most modern homes. That is always more problematic, especially since a lot of bass energy emerges via bottom port on the Walshes. Extent and details varies room to room, but I set the 100s on ceramic tiles at a minimum to help tame the bass in this case. I am interested in something more massive for these to sit on as well, especially in my wife's very lively and acoustically challenged sunroom, but extent of problem has not forced me to do anything more there yet. |
Peterr53: Perfect imaging? Is there such a thing? I never said perfect. I like the imaging I get with and without the stands. But my cement floor is uneven, and the speakers wobbled. With the bases, the center image is solid and stable, and I get less drift of left and right images, although I still get some. My room is far from perfect (it's evolving, slowly). I would like more depth, and a bid more even spread of the stage in front of me. But I did get some of both when I tried the Arion Audio RS500 amps (along with a lot of other improvements). Hence the quest for big power amps that I can afford.
Yes, I have 6' ceilings in my basement man cave (just like a real cave!). The steam pipes are boxed out and are even lower than 6' in spots. I am 5'8", so no problems, and mostly, I am sitting down anyway. It is the best place in my small home for a stereo/HT rig. There are many pros and cons, but the best is that I can crank it up to "11" at any hour and I disturb nobody; not the neighbors, not sleeping family members two flights up. |
I suspect most of D-Sonic customers are not running tube pre-amps. They are looking for best value in an amp mostly I suspect, and are probably not too concerned about technical details relating uniquely to tube gear. D-Sonic will certainly work with tube gear, though a more detailed investigation by tube gear owner would likely identify other options with something to offer, but probably for a premium. Most folks into tubes probably are less cost conscience than the masses I would guess. |
But I'm with you and others who wish D-Sonic would be more open about their amps. |
Tobe,
I suppose Dennis has his reasons and motivations for doing things the way he does.
I'm not judging it, just pointing out some differences between vendor's approaches and value propositions. M-Sonic is certainly one of the vendors that sets the bar in regards to low cost.
Take a look at Audio Research's Class D amps over the years. There is a company known for tube technology that has adapted Class D as well. I tend to trust what they do when designing CLass D amps to run best with tube gear. Whatever the real end benefits when listening are, I think they tend to do things pretty right, but they will never be the lowest cost option. |
Early on Dennis DID offer, as an option, a buffer stage to increase the input impedance of his amps but later discontinue it as he found it make no difference sonically even when using tube preamps. |
Bondmanp..
So the imaging was perfect on you're 2000's, before the Sound anchors?
And did I read 6' ceilings??? I wouldn't even be able to stand up straight in a room with that limited of headroom.
Everything is better after adding the mass to the speaker, dynamics, imaging
image height and it looks way more like a modern designed speaker.
Wtf..Thank you for the good word :-)
Peter |
The difference, at least historically, between D-Sonic and Wyred is D-Sonic merely puts existing third party amp modules in boxes with connectors to make a finished product. No special circuitry. Wyred and some others like Bel Canto add circuitry to stock power amp modules to tweak/improve performance as needed. That's a big difference! |
Why would Dennis Deacon risk hurting business sales by not releasing more info on his amps? It could be he is overly sensitive about disclosing proprietary information ever since getting Der Wienerschnitzeled by having his business model of selling inexpensive Ice amp on-line stolen by Wyred4Sound. |
Sorry, meant D-Sonic, not M. |
YEs, those pics have come up on another thread about M-Sonic.
ITs still not clear if that is what is being used by M-Sonic currently or not though.
Only the vendor or a customer who has purchased recently would be able to say for sure.
It really would be nice if the vendor would disclose what is used. Without that, they could change at any time for any reason and nobody would know in advance if they will not even answer the question when asked. |
Bondmanp, I look up the output impedance for your McIntosh C220, it's 250 ohm, so yes, no problem going into a 10Kohm input impedance amp. |
If you click several times on the open case D-Sonic M2 600 mono thumbnail, the print on the circuit clearly says Abletec Engineering. http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?142204-d-Sonic-M2-600M-monoblocks-amp-Pics. |
Regarding the OEM source of the amp modules in D-Sonics amps, if you read the 6Moons review, you'll see that Dennis ain't talkin'. IMHO, that's his prerogative. It's all about the sound. If the amp sounds good, what difference does it make, really, which amp modules he is using? FWIW, my McIntosh C220 works swell with my 10K ohm input resistance Odyssey Audio SS amp, even with 20' RCA runs and the Vandersteen outboard HP filters. No HF roll off that I can hear.
Peterr53: Thanks for the post. Fascinating. FWIW, my Walsh 2000s have no issue with image hieght. In most cases, the image reaches my 6' ceiling. I had Sound Ancors custom make solid, adjustable three-point spiked, cradle bases for my 2000s for around $325/pr. A real step up in imaging and transient detail. |
Peter .. seriously gorgeous. Seems you have taken your Ohms to another level, quite literally. |
Ohm is currently offering a deal on driver upgrades to their 4000 series. I currently have both walsh 4's and 300mk11 any thoughts on the 4000 driver as a replacement for either of these speakers
Dennis |
Coot, your Placette passive preamp is very highly regarded. You just need to be sure the amp you are getting has an input impedance higher than 20Kohm. Talk to Dennis, maybe his amps really are 60Kohm input impedance which would be perfect with your Placette passive preamp. |
Wow...
After being gone a while due to some health issues I realized that the five hundred or so posts had swollen to an amazing 1800+ LOL
I wanted to chime in about anchoring the Ohm's to the floor with more then those laughable casters (sorry John).
To realize the full potential of these speakers something had to been done. As my listening room is on a raised floor
not concrete, I figured I had to build a platform that would couple the speakers to the floor properly. I tried some plywood... No good.
Then on to 1/2" thick marble slab that was ok (still sitting on those silly casters from the 70's).
At this point I figured the speakers deserved something overwhelmingly solid that wouldn't cost an arm and a leg.
I did call my metal warehouse that promptly told me that they would be more then happy to cut my aluminum bases to size....$1300 thank you!!
So after NOT discussing the cost with my wife, I decided on concrete as the price was agreeable, and making the molds was a snap :-)
As you can see in the image Speakers were painted in an automotive dark grey urethane, stand-off's in stainless steel. The bases added an amazing
110 lbs of mass, and I added an additional 4+inches worth of height.
I always loved my Ohm's, but there was the image height that totally screwed with my enjoyment as it sounded like...... short people music.
Now I have a rock solid, correct imaging height, and fantastic dynamics.
I also had John install Bybee speaker bullets inside the speakers.
This system does duty for stereo and surround sound and it is pretty amazing
considering how much I invested in the system.
Here's the images of my Ohm's...
http://s185.photobucket.com/user/m7tuning/media/Ohm1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1
http://s185.photobucket.com/user/m7tuning/media/Ohm2.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
Peter |
Thanks. I was not aware there was much difference in amps' resistance. I don't want to add a preamp, but is that how to remedy the mismatch? |
Your B&k EX442 amp input impedance is 24Kohm and the Placette passive preamp is rather high at 2Kohm output impedance but both should work fine together. At 10kohm input impedance for D-Sonic M2 the high end will begin to roll off. Yes talk to Dennis when you are ready to make the purchase. |
Tobe,
My Placette is a volume control unit which uses Vashay resistors only. There is no other circuitry. I am running without any other preamp. IIRC it is 10k resistance and it works just fine with my B&K. I am not technically adept when it comes to electronics. When I get closer, I will ask Dennis about mating his amps to my system, of course.
Thanks for your input! |
I exchanged several emails with Dennis a couple of months ago inquiring about the amp modules he is now using and he did confirm he was moving away from the ICE modules in some of his amps, but he never answered a direct question. Honestly, I found the whole exchange frustrating and decided to move on. I understand not wanting to give away trade secrets but a bit of info is warranted I believe. For me, I already own a PS Audio ICE-based amp and I want to know what flavor of class-d I'm buying. It's too bad because I was ready to make a purchase. |
Tobe,
My approach in landing on the Bel Cantos was No Holds Barred, to try and land the best amps I could afford that looked best on paper. It worked out well, but you could be right, and I might have been able to save some dough accordingly.
I would like to compare the D-Sonic sometime. One may well be on my list again next time I am looking for an amp.
At least when the time comes, I feel I have a very excellent reference in place currently to compare others to. |
Mapman, your ARC SP16 tube preamp has a output impedance of 260 ohms. Using the simple rule of thumb that the input impedance of your amp should have at least 10 times or more, the output impedance of your preamp, 260 ohms * 10 = 2.6Kohm. At 10Kohm for the D-Sonic M2, your ARC tube preamp would have no problems whatsoever. |
You are right but Wyred 4 Sound and other manufacturers include a buffer stage ahead of the Class D amp for the simple reasoning of increasing the input impedance, making it an easier match for tube preamps. I personally would prefer not to have the extra circuitry dressing and go all natural. |
