Sibelius..... I totally agree with you about either loving or disliking the PHY sound. I use the new Ocellia Twin speakers with the 12 inch PHY driver (not the concentric PHY driver I found that almost congested sounding) and use it with a 8 watt 2A3 Kondo Souga amp. The speaker is just so naturally sounding and not hi-fi sounding. Those that want to be initially impressed with a speaker should look elsewhere those that just want to enjoy and forget about equipment and listen for hours on end should investigate any PHY driver speaker, you will not be disappointed in the long haul.
(dealer disclaimer) |
I have Tonian Classic 12's with the PHY-12 inch Driver. The amplification will depend on your room and the type of music you like. I have used 45,2a3,300B,GM-70 SET's, a 15W Shindo Montille (EL-84), an Atma-sephere S30 OTL and a refurbed Dynaco ST-70 (EL-34) - all with good success. My current favorite amps to use with it are the Shindo and the Atma-sphere. The PHY driver is extremely revealing and while I generally love SET's, I find the tonal color becomes more exagerated with the PHY's than with other drivers I've experienced. The Shindo and Atma-sphere have a more neutral sound that seems to work well with the Tonians. The only amp that I paired with the Tonian that I really disliked was a 100W SS ICE based amp.
45 and 2A3's will be fine with intimate vocals, jazz and chamber music. I've found I wanted more power with larger orchestral works.
I bought the Tonians after hearing them at last years California Audio Show. To me they were one of the three best speakers at the show. However, I would strongly recommend that you audition PHY based speakers before you purchase them. Based on feedback I heard at the show people generally fall into the love or hate camp with not much middle ground.
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Atmasphere If you want to bring one that can let me know. |
Johnk I'm talking about real world speakers not some car garage size cabinets! |
Johnk, how come you never see speakers that do that at shows? |
Atmasphere not rated at -6db down heck f200a is near 25hz before -6db down. Sksos1 DX 4 can get to 40hz or lower in massive horn cabinet just because your loudspeakers equipped with dx4 doesn't. Does not mean its not possible lowther claims 30hz. |
Johnk, I've owned DX4 based speakers for almost 8 years and they do NOT go to 40 cycles! If you placed them in a corner with good room reinforcement maybe down in the lower 50's I had mine in the middle of a room and I'd say upper 50's at best. |
Johnk, are you saying these examples are flat at 40Hz? -3db? This is clearly an area of confusion; for me if the speaker is 6db down I'm happy to say it 'has response to' but I would not call it honest at that frequency... |
Atmasphere there are 8in fullranges that go lower than the 12in KM30 or h30lb15. Like Fostex f200a lowther pm4a and most quality 8in fullrange in proper cabinet can do 40hz fe206en fe208esigma fx200 SEAS X-1 SEAS Fa22 Lowther dx4 all are capable of 40hz or lower. I could go on. |
I know the Ocellia's pretty well. I currently own a full Ocellia system:
- Ocellia 30 Calliope SIGNATURE TWIN Tweeters. The speakers are bi-wired and directly hooked up to the amps. No crossover except for the one inside the Piezo tweeters.
- The latest Ocellia Quaero signature preamplifier and separate phono stage with Ocellia step-up transformer
- The latest Ocellia Quaero Signature 300 push-pull amps. 15 watts, 16 ohm load.
- All interconnects,speaker cables, and power cords are all silver reference.
The owner/designer of Ocellia now lives in Montreal (and happens to live 20 minutes away by car) and I am very familiar with the sound of Calliope 16, Calliope 20 and 30. Ocellia SET 300B, Push Pull 300B, and EL 34 amps.
Concerning the power requirements of my Ocellia Calliope TWIN Signature speakers, despite some of your assumptions that this would be a match with a 7 or 8 watt 300b SET amps, it all depends. I have a room that is 20 feet x 22 feet with an eight foot ceiling and using a 7 or 8 Watt SET AMP will not suffice whether in my room or even the Ocellia designers smaller room. Let me explain, I listen to a wide variety of music fromn digital to analog from jazz, rock, pop, classical, opera and everything in between. The Ocellia 300B push pull amp (15 watts) where better able to control the PHY 12 INCH DRIVERS better than the Ocellia 300B SET amp. It sounds more dynamic and more rhythmic. However, if you have a smaller room and/or you only listen to opera, small chamber music, small jazz trio, then you can get away with using a 7 or 8 watt SET. As far as using a higher powered SET pumping out more than 15 watts (think 211, 845), why?? I think they might be overkill. Also, forget about using flea powered SET (45, 2A3) on the Ocellia's, they won't cut it. Can't control the 12 inch drivers.
Concerning the difference in sound with the Ocellia 30 (with PHY-HP 12 INCH driver) against Ocellia 20 (with PHY-HP 8 INCH driver). Yes, the Ocellia 20 sounds faster. The Ocellia 30 while it may appear that they soudn slower, they sound more fuller sounding and more natural sounding than the Ocellia 20. But, both of them have the same type of house sound, which is naturalness, devoid of any nas The ty lowther shout or brightness. The type of speaker you would prefer will be dictated by the size of your room. The Ocellia 20 will prefer a medium size room to work its magic while teh Ocellia 30 needs a bigger room like mine. Take note, the Ocellia 20 can be mated to an SET AMP. I have tried Ocellia's 300b SET amp and it is nice. Keep in mind, my comparison of the 20 and 30 is baded on the newer designd cabinets (circa 2010 for the 30 and 2011 for the 20). The Calliope 20 is now designed with 2 piezo tweeters in each speaker and hence called the Calliope 20 TWIN
With regards to the sound of the new Ocellia 30 Calliope TWIN signature(with 2 piezo tweeters in each cabinet) against the old Ocellia 30 Calliope signature coax (the piezo tweeter in the middle of the 12 inch PHY Driver), the TWIN is better in sound than the coax. You hear more detail, more low level detail with the TWIN. Overall soundstage is the same with TWIN or Coax but I find that the TWIN is more rhythmic. The designer of Ocellia, Samuel Furon, lent me the Coax speaker for 6 months and it allowed me to get familiar with the coax before changing them for the TWIN (The cabinet we where using where for teh TWIN, so it allowed me to see which sound I liked). I think it is worth getting the Calliope 30 TWIN than the Calliope 30 coax. By the way, all my impression where with the SIGNATURE VERSION cabinets which are heavily braced more than the regular cabinets.
As far as bass between the 20 and 30, I do not think the bass is lower in the 30 (12 inch driver) versus 20 (8 inch driver). The bass sounds fuller. What I notice is that the 20 (with the 8 inch driver), the decay , to me, sounds shorter. The 30 (with the 12 inch driver) sounds like the decay holds on longer. Don't ask me why. Also, for some reason, analog sounds better than digital on the 20. With the 30, analog and digital sounds equally good (but I love listening to analog more). Again, don't ask me why analog sounds better than digital on the 20.
With regards to adding a subwoofer to either the Calliope 20 or 30, WTF are you trying to do??? To me, the bass in both the 20 and 30 are satisfying enough if you give them the proper room. There is no subwoofer that can match the speed of either the 20 or 30. You are gonna ruin the sound. If you require deep deep bass then I think you are missing the point of what the designer of Ocellia is trying to convey! Ths is not the speaker for you. My advice, get yourself a Lamhorn 1.6 with the AER MD3B driver (no...not the shitty AER MK1 driver that comes standard with the Lamhorn). The AER MD3B has potent bass and I think IT is deigned for bass freaks like you. And drive the Lamhorn with Tenor amps (owned the Lamhorn with AER MK1 driver and AER MD3B with Tenor 75 watt OTL and Tenor 150HPS HYBRID OTL). The Lamhorn 1.8/Tenor combo will satisfy the soundstage, bass freaks. But you will miss the nuance, emotion, naturallness that Ocellia brings to teh table.
Concerning Tonian Labs, never heard them. But remember, Samuel Furon of Ocellia and Bernard Salabert of PHY-HP have collaborated together. They both have the same take on the type of sound they want. The Ocellia cabinets are an extension of PHY-HP's sound philosophy. If you like the PHY-HP sound, then the Ocellia cabinets are an extension of the sound. Keep in mind, I am speaking about the new Ocellia cabinet design of 2010 and 2011 only!!!
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Do you want the best? Go for a S.E.T. using 801A output tube. 6 ultra enouph watts with superb tonality. |
Rsf507,
You should contact gon members glide3 and Silbelius. They`re both owners of the Tonian Classic 12.1 and could provide first hand information regarding the bass performance. |
If you want bass into the 20s or even the 30s, you will need a sub with either one. That 12" is nice, but even in a big cabinet it won't go all that low. It just goes lower that any full range 8" will do, but that means maybe 38-40Hz at best. |
Thanks. Would you say the 12 inch would not require a sub whereas the 8" would? |
The 8" seems a bit faster, and the 12" has more bass. |
Can anyone tell me the sonic differences between the 8" PHY driver vs. the 12" version? |
I have the Tonian TL-D1s and have heard Tony demo the 12.1s and they are simply wonderful. All I would ever need. As happy and content as I am, I'd love to have the 12.1s but my wallet can not accommodate.
Tony can answer any questions you have. |
I think both makers are experts at their chosen craft. Yes, more public info on Ocellia. But Tony is honestly a magic-maker and really, really knows what he's doing with those cabinets too. Also, the integration with the ribbon tweeter, even on the lower models (actually I've only heard the lower models), is so good it's also amazing. It's just seamless. There are only a handful of speakers I personally would gush about like this... everyone's MMV. |
Assessment based on seeing pics of Ocellia speakers and how they are made (from a 6moons factory tour review) and finding NO information of Tonian speakers and what the insides of one looks like. So yes it was an assumption on my part, sorry. |
Unfortunately never heard the Classic 12. Had pr on order 1.5 years ago and canceled due to financial concerns (that didn't materialize). Boneheaded move. |
Paul,
Have you specifically heard the Tonian Lab Classic 12.1(PHY-HP 12 driver)? This is the model that intrigues me. It would seem ideal for 8 watt 300b SET amps. |
On what do you base your assessment that the Ocellia cabinet "seems the better design"? Both companies use the same "resonant cabinet" philosophy, actually. I have not heard Ocellia but I can state that the Tonian cabinets, and speakers, are simply amazing in capturing the micro & macrodynamics of acoustic instruments. |
Has anyone compared the Ocellia vs. Tonian? The cabinet of the Ocellia which is claimed to be made as a musical intrument, seems the better design but would be interested in others thoughts. |
Glide3, what type of crossover(1st order?) does your tonian use and what frequency does the ribbon take over? These speakers can only be auditioned in CA. it seems. |
I have owned Tonian speakers for years and agree with the above posts....the phy will sound great with any good low to medium power tube amp. I find they like a little more juice than you can get from a 45 or 2a3 set will sound better with the 8 or so watts you can get from a 300b set and better yet from an 845 or 211 set. Otls like Ralphs work well.
A pair of audiopax model 30s were a very nice match.
Interestingly, Tony advocates for SS amps with the Tonians using the PHY and he likes the Stellovox, goldmunds srm and first watt J2 to name a few.
My favorite matches ended up being a pair of 20 watt 3dimension audio PP 300b amps and a Berning ZH230 @ 30 watts |
A SOUGA is a Kondo 2A3 amp with silver hand-wound transformers. |
Mechans,
I understand your waxing poetic, the PHY-HP 12 inch driver really seems like a quite special unit. I hope to hear some version of it (Tonian Lab perhaps) at the RMAF this year. I also read that 6 Moons PHY article, fascinating story. It was made with the goal of reproducing pure and natural musical beauty. |
If you go to the PHY website it has all of the info you need. The "admissible" power rating was fairly low, at around 50 watts. The sensitivity - depending on the driver used, is 97 to 98 Db, I assume for the usual 1 watt at one meter. Given that and what appeared to be a very friendly impedance curve this speaker looks like a dream speaker for any S.E.T amp that you like.
As an aside, from the graphs these wideband single drivers drops off very steeply above 10K Hz and it also drops out below 50 Hz.
None the less I imagine your speaker will sound fantastic with a good tube amp of virtually any power rating.
I apologize for waxing poetic but I just read a 6 Moons article about PHY.
BTW What is a SOUGA amp? |
I use an 8 watt SOUGA amp and find it fine, listen in a large room and sometimes at very loud levels. |
10 Watts of SET fills a 12x12 foot room with plenty to spare. |
25 watts or so is all they are rated for if I recall right. The speaker likes a bit of power so I would put as much as you can on them. We used our S-30 on them to very good effect. Any smaller tube amp should do the job; a lot will depend on your room and your taste in music. |
