I see that some people are starting to use this wire for speaker cables and ac power cables. Is anyone here using this wire? How does it compare to the cables on the market today? THANK YOU
I personally don't like listening to an audio system unless there's at least a slight chance it'll burst into flames at some point during the listening session.
HA!
Sort of reminds me of a quote from Nelson pass, regarding demoing gear at a show.
"If it doesn't work, hope it catches on fire." ;)
I second Sherod's comment, I NEVER see any high-end cables with UL ratings. Nor is it a common occurrence that cables catch fire or I guarantee there'd be some threads about it.
I suppose you've never heard the phrase "Dead men tell no tales"? ;)
I personally don't like listening to an audio system unless there's at least a slight chance it'll burst into flames at some point during the listening session.
The Extension cord was a standard home depot-style extension cord of large gauge size. It just couldn't take the light's current draw. Bare in mind the lights we use are 3k to 10k lights, which draw a constant 10,000 watts... so they're not quite the common 40w household light bulb. But let's be serious... if bricks can catch on fire, then if ANY power cord gets hot enough, regardless of the UL rating it will catch fire. The Extension cord got quite hot to the touch, but it didn't catch fire. It blew the circuit first. And to repeat... we're talking a much higher current draw than any piece of audio/video equipment.
I second Sherod's comment, I NEVER see any high-end cables with UL ratings. Nor is it a common occurrence that cables catch fire or I guarantee there'd be some threads about it.
One of the major factors UL takes into consideration is the flammability characteristics of the insulation material.If a cord shorts out do to overload,or a pet walking by the cord moving it causing insulation failure.I would guess everyone here moves their cords to clean when they choose.The extension cord mentioned above must have had flame retardant insulation to keep it from bursting into flames taking everything with it.I myself like to see the UL listed marking on my cords.For digital audio, shielded power cords help keep out stray noise generated by radio stations,and possibly the power supply on one of your components.This is just my choice.
I have been a user of Ben's power cords for some time now. I am a distributor and the customers I have sold these cords to have replaced $7000 power cords from the likes of Argento and Verastarr, among others. EVERY person I have sold a power cord to has replaced the cords in their entire system with the Mojo Audio cords. That should say something in testament both to the build quality of these cords and to the performance.
Ben doesn't reinvent the wheel with his power cords. Like everything audio, the simpler the design, the better it sounds. Just because he is using a vintage wire does not make it out dated. Let's face it, Western Electric INVENTED all of the math and terminology involved in audio. All of that math is still involved today. They knew what they were doing when they designed this wire.
Given that the wire is still around after 50 years and there aren't reports of fire, I have NO idea what you guys are worried about. One would think that a wire, designed specifically for power, would have some kind of warning along with it after 50 years of use around the world.
Arguments will fly forever about anything. But ultimately the proof is in the listening. If these cables weren't what we say they were then Mojo Audio wouldn't be building the reputation that it is building.
I work in film and on a set I have burned out an extension cord. It got hot and cooked itself, but it did not catch fire. It was a 100' cable and was drawing FAR more current than any piece of audio equipment will ever be able to draw. As Ben stated, a cable will cook itself if it's not rated high enough for the amount of current being drawn through it. These power cables will never face that issue.
If an electrical item SHORTS OUT it will NEVER cause a fire; it will simply flip a circuit breaker or blow out a fuse. That is why electrical codes insist on these safety device in all home and commercial circuits.
That's a rather dangerous and ill-informed assumption.
It assumes that all shorts are dead shorts and of sufficiently low resistance to so as to allow enough fault current to flow to quickly trip the breaker or blow the fuse.
Such is not always the case and when it is not the case, a high resistance short can have insufficient current to trip the breaker or blow the fuse while allowing enough current to flow through the resistance to cause enough heat to start a fire.
What concerns me is that both on your website and your eBay ads, all you talk about is the wire. Unless I'm missing something, I see no mention whatsoever as to what INSULATES the wire.
Is it cloth? Rubber? Some sort of thermoplastic?
If it's cloth, I wouldn't recommend anyone use them for power cords.
Hi everyone. Benjamin from Mojo Audio (Mojo-Audio.com).
I'm actually a bit embarrassed for some of you and your fire hazard and UL listed comments.
Certainly it is your right to only purchase items with UL listings or whatever other certification you prefer.
Feel free to purchase Monster Cable from Best Buy and purchase the extended warranty along with it.
Testing, inspections, and government standards only came into existence to give consumers some confidence in the products they purchased.
Just because a person is driving a car that has been inspected and they passed a driving test doesn't mean they are not a ROAD HAZARD.
User error is the issue, not UL listing.
These listings are no substitute for INTELLIGENCE. Most electrical fires occur due to USER ERROR and UL listed products are at the center of most of them as well.
If an electrical item SHORTS OUT it will NEVER cause a fire; it will simply flip a circuit breaker or blow out a fuse. That is why electrical codes insist on these safety device in all home and commercial circuits.
If an power cord has frayed insulation it will also not catch fire. It may short out and trip the same circuit breaker and it may give you a shock but it will not catch fire.
What causes electrical items to catch fire? Excessive current draw beyond their power rating. This can occur if wire of too small a gauge is used in walls, if outlets of too low a rating are used, if extension cords of too low a rating are used, or if multi-outlet devices of too low a rating or used.
In all of these cases the wire or contacts heat up from too much electrical resistance and cause surrounding materials to burst into flame. This is similar to the way electrical heaters and ovens operate (though "resistance heating" is intentional in those cases).
There is not an amplifier that has a 15A IEC outlet on the planet that has enough current draw to make ANY of my power cords even get warm let alone hot. Most UL listed IEC type power cords only use a 16AWG wire and mine use a 10AWG wire. My power cords are SO over-rated for their intended purpose there is NO CHANCE of over-heating in any way shape or form.
I'm not worried about any of my products failing and getting sued for negligence. I have business insurance so feel free to sue me if you like.
On the other hand, I worry about shoveling snow/ice and racking leaves. I am a bit worried that my postal carrier may slip and fall when he picks up all the packages I ship out every week.
My list of satisfied customers keeps growing and growing. These audiophiles know other audiophiles and word of mouth is my best advertising.
In the past past month I've expanded my production facility by 3X and doubled my number of employees just to keep up with the OVERWHELMING demand.
This was supposed to be a part-time retirement business for me and it has grown beyond my wildest imagination.
You'll be reading about my products in reviews over the next year and I look forward to meeting some of you in person at shows like Rocky Mountain, CES, and Audio Karma.
Some companies are already using my products in their demo systems and more are being added every month.
BTW, only a SOME of my products use NOS wire...most use modern current production materials.
Is all this Western Electric NOS wire covered in cloth or silk? Does any of the wire have an alternative coating? While the manufacturer states he uses a military spec wire, I'd be concerned if it was of the cloth/silk covered variety. I have seen interconnects and speaker cables made with cloth (ex. cotton) insulation, but these wires carry very little current compared to a power cord.
And, finally, copper oxydation: if someone believes oxydation is no problem, well sorry for you.
Why sorry? It isn't a problem, your misinformation notwithstanding.
Also, most all of that wire is tin plated, not bare copper.
folks are paying hundreds for something that is supposed to be 'high quality' to some extent. fifty years of oxydation nowithstanding.
I guess it depends how you define "quality." Much of the marketing of "high end" wares focuses on inventing "problems" for which the manufacture just happens to have a "cure."
Most of that old Western Electric wire was high quality when it was made, and unless it's been overly used and/or abused, it's still of high quality.
I currently own four of Ben's power cord. Two are currently not in use( These are the original, unshielded versions). The other two are Ben's newest cross-helixed shielded with copper connectors. In a word, these new power cords are amazing. A bargain for their price. I have one on my Pilot tube amp and the sound is as pure and dynamic as one can get. I have the 2nd cord cooking on my fridge and will be experimenting with it on my preamp and amps this weekend. Both cords are the 10 gauge models. Ben offers a lengthy return policy if you're not satisfied with his cords. I have found Ben to be very knowledgeable, trustworthy, and professional in our transactions.
Hi Everyone. My name is Benjamin and I'm the owner of Mojo Audio (Mojo-Audio.com) and one of the leaders in professionally manufactured NOS wire cords and cables.
To start with, there are MANY different vintage wires. Some are safe for a specific end use and some are not. Some sound amazing, some sound OK, and some sound terrible.
Just like with anything else in this world, you need to either know what you are doing or know someone that knows what they are doing.
As for the wire I use, it is mil spec and of the highest quality. There is nothing worn or degraded about it nor will it become worn or degraded with DECADES of use.
The 10AWG wire has a MINIMUM rating of 15A and the 8AWG has a MINIMUM rating of 24A. In lengths used in power cords you could CONSERVATIVELY double those ratings.
The pure copper plug sets I use have a CONSERVATIVE rating of 15A.
In all the time I've been making and selling these power cords I have not had ONE single failure in a cord let alone ONE cord that has tripped a circuit breaker let alone caught fire.
When it comes to "fire hazards" they are usually caused by people using wiring with too low of a current rating. This is often done when people do stupid things like plug too many high current items into an extension cord or an octopus wall adapter.
The concept of a NOS wire power cord that is as OVER-RATED as the ones I make being a fire hazard is INCONCEIVABLE.
I suggest that those of you that are making comments on this or that get your FACTS straight and stop throwing around generalized and misleading information that is likely mislead the naive and make you look foolish to anyone with experience.
As for copper and oxidation, that is completely correct. Pure copper will oxidize over time. The R-copper that my plug sets are made from will not oxidize quickly and using a common contact cleaner like Caig a few times a year will keep them looking and working like new for a lifetime.
For those of you audiophiles that are too lazy to clean your connectors, I would be happy to make you power cords using the same R-copper plugs with gold plating. Granted they won't sound as good as the un-plated pure copper, but that is your choice.
If pure copper plug sets weren't a reasonable option then why would HUGE companies such as Furutech, LeGo, and Yarbo that are WORLD LEADERS in connectors make and sell pure copper plug sets? Ask any Furutech dealer what's the most popular plug set they sell and they will tell you it's the FI-11 Cu (pure copper).
I have DOZENS of customers that replaced their "whose who" Stereophile class A rated $2K+ power cords with mine. The same is true of my interconnects and digital cables.
Don't take my word for it. Don't take their word for it. I suggest you try my (or any other companies) products first hand, for yourself, in your system.
Everything I sell comes with a 30-day unconditional money back guaranty. All you risk is the cost of shipping. There is not even a re-stocking fee.
BTW, I am also "Fuzzbutt17" on eBay if you want to see HUNDREDS of positive feedbacks.
Simply do you know what wire that is being used in the cords? WE made a ton of different wire right?. Just looking to understand - I am not looking for any arguements.
No, I don't know the specific wire that's being used in that particular power cord. But that just gives me more cause for concern.
The Western Electric wire that's most commonly touted out there is the cloth insulated wire, which is not something I would ever recommend for power cords.
Hey Simply, these cords been running in my rig for about a year, how the hell are they unsafe ?
And wiring in some peoples' homes had worked fine for years, until it failed and started a fire.
Look, the sad fact is that any clown can take some wires, slap connectors on them and offer them for sale as power cords. And many of them may ultimately be as safe as those made to meet accepted safety standards.
But I would never buy a power cable from an audio hobbyist without knowing that they were.
I think Rx8man lives right next to the local firehouse!
Simply do you know what wire that is being used in the cords? WE made a ton of different wire right?. Just looking to understand - I am not looking for any arguements.
"Copper developes an oxide which acts as a protective layer which prevents futher oxidation"..AND prevents current flow. Copper oxydation is BAD for signal transfer. since the wire carries the signal ON THE SURFACE OF THE WIRE, and the wire has oxydation, it SUCKS at carrying the signal.
Oh please!
A surface layer of oxidation a few tens of molecules thick isn't going to have any appreciable effect whatsoever when it comes to current flow. Whatever effect it would have at reducing the cross sectional area of the wire would be totally swamped by differences due to simple manufacturing tolerances.
For that matter, it would also be swamped by the effective reduction of cross sectional area due to skin effect and proximity effect.
Worrying about a bit of oxidation is like worrying about whether your wire is 24 gauge or 24.0001 gauge. Are you really telling people that they have to worry about something as utterly insignificant as that? Really?
And no, the signal is NOT carried on the surface of the wire. Signal current flows throughout the entire cross section of the wire. While skin effect will tend to cause the current density to be somewhat higher TOWARD the surface of the wire, all of the current flows WITHIN the wire. And a little bit of oxidation isn't going to have any appreciable effect on that whatsoever.
Nice you put a LINK. so the crazy know where to blow money spent foolishly
Why do you feel the need to engage in personal attacks against those who might enjoy using some vintage wire in their audio systems? And what do you care how they spend their own money?
I suspect a conspiracy here to start selling some crap useless wire to unsuspecting audiophools. IMO.
It's hardly useless as it works just fine, though again, I wouldn't recommend using it for power cables as it was never made for that purpose in the first place and can pose some serious safety issues.
You really need to loosen your sphincter a few... dozen notches. Getting your panties all in a bunch just because someone else might enjoy something that you would not isn't healthy.
Almarg - agreed caution but the WE wire being used in the cores is NOS so the designer has the ability to check the wire for what that is worth. The wire inside the radios had curent going through it along with some heat. I am by no means an expert so you can try a person on ebay called oldwestuff, I think he knows the WE wire very well.
What makes Mojo-Audio's product more of a risk to by and use as Shunyata?
The fact that the wire and its insulation are many decades old. Perhaps that is made irrelevant by the fact that "the stranded wire used to make these power cords was engineered by Western Electric for use as an AC power conductor in high end applications like military and professional grade products" (quoting the Mojo writeup), but I would be hesitant to bet the safety of my house or its occupants on it :-)
I am an antique radio collector, and having encountered and replaced power wiring and other internal wiring in a great many 1930's radios that had brittle and/or crumbling insulation, I would advise caution.
Clio09 I have purchased similar cables in the past and have also made a few back in the day. Every cable has a sound to it. Some are much better then others. The Helix design is very good at lowering the noise floor, providing details and nice soundstage. Top to nottom it will be very balanced. The cheaper cable on ebay is a different design then the one offered on the website so they will have a different sound. I have seen many manufacturers change designs quite often to as they "discover" new/better was to implement a design, and manufacturer the design. What makes Mojo-Audio's product more of a risk to by and use as Shunyata? Do they have magic wire being produced for them? My neighbors new car broke down but my ten year old Lexus has never caused me an issue. I like to hear things in my system before I purchase so that I can compare what I own and determine if the new item is better in my system. For the price of the cable it is worth a try, I know that I have spend more on cables. The Elrod comes to mind and that went through three changes in design. BTW, I don't own them any more, lost a ton of money on them and found something I prefer in my system for a lot less.
I have heard from one purchaser that while the cables are a relatively new offering the design has been getting tweaked fairly often over a short period of time (not unusual for some manufacturers). About the only thing that has remained constant is the actual wire itself. Also, seems like a price increase is on the way once the initial introductory offer expires.
I have no particular knowledge of this wire, and so I express no opinion about its performance, aside from emphatically seconding the cautions that have been expressed about safety. For instance, if the user were to bend an assembled cable or cord, what degree of confidence is there that the insulation within will not crack or disintegrate?
Beyond that, in terms of sonic performance, I think that Elizabeth's skepticism is well justified. Given the revered status among many audiophiles of the drivers from 1930's Western Electric theater speakers, as reflected in the astronomical prices they go for, as well as some of their 1930's tubes (such as the 300B), it would seem entirely expectable that attempts would be made to capitalize on brand name recognition, by marketing other WE products that do not have anything special about them. Caveat emptor.
Simply q is correct, some of the old WE wire was tinned. I am not sure if all of it was. Making a power cord sound good comes down to the design. You can place two wires and a ground in a sleeve and it will work and then you can twist wires, add ferrite clamps, beads, etc., and they will sound different. Ribbon wire will also sound different as will adding blends with silver, gold, etc. So while WE may be good for making audio cables, there may be better wire out there. It comes down to experimentation. The person selling on ebay offers a trial period on some of his cables (see the store website) so you can try them for yourself and come to your own conclusions. The "cheap" plugs are almost exact clones of the higher priced plugs and again depending on the material used in them such as pure copper, silver, gold or brass plated, they will change the sound of the cable. Hey someone has to make the expensive plug sets, maybe they are all made in China? Find the thread tee Jade has on Agon about making cables. It took him years to find his own formula and probably even that won't work the best in all systems.
So try them if there is a trial period, and make up your own mind.
First, copper doesn't corrode under normal conditions. It's not like steel where any surface corrosion (i.e. rust) continues throughout the metal until it finally turns to dust.
Copper develops an oxide on its surface which acts a protective layer preventing further oxidation.
Second, most of that old WE wire was tin plated copper so it has even further protection against oxidation.
I've had samples of it that was going on 80 years old and it was still in good shape.
Second it is not nearly as pure as ANY current production. (impure means it sucks at transmitting current well)
Insignificant.
Copper used for electrical purposes is only marginally more pure than it was back in 1913 when the International Annealed Copper Standard was set at 5.8 x 10^7 siemens per meter. Conductivity is often referred to as % IACS. Today, the copper used for electrical purposes is only 101% IACS.
As I said, insignificant.
That being said, I WOULDN'T recommend using it for power cords and I'd be careful using it for speaker cables.
If you want to experiment with it, the best stuff in my opinion is the stranded, cotton braid over silk serve which is typically also impregnated with wax.
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