One of my favorite pop bands of the 90's was Morphine. So I shouldn't listen to them anymore because the Dana Colley can't play saxophone as well as Coleman Hawkins?
What if another female singer comes along and is a better singer than Sara Vaughn and Ella, Do I throw away their records, because now they are not the best , or just add the new singer to the great collection of female singers I have.
Btw, since i listened to heavy metal I have wanted to move into a trailer park, and chase trashy girls. ( Not that theirs anything wrong with that) |
"The good is the enemy of the best."
I think that everyone's doing the best they can with what they've been given. I'm guilty of making disparaging remarks about musicians whose music I don't like but to dismiss an enormous talent such as Norah Jones simply because she isn't Sara Vaughan is absurd. NJ has a lot to offer in a variety of styles. I don't think of her as a jazz chanteuse and I don't think that's all she's trying to be.
Roxy54, I can't disagree more with the suggestion that NJ is mediocre. |
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I understand totally what I am saying. The above two posts are simply an argument in favor of bad taste for all .
This is the ancient view of the Philistine. To save the uneducated the bother of looking it up I quote the Oxford,"a person who is hostile or indifferent to culture and the arts or who has no understanding of them". |
Once again you misread. The example cited in the Wiki article references giving WW2 soldiers the third best weaponry. The Germans had the best tanks, but the US and the Russians had more tanks. In this case of recent history the good triumphed over the great. Would you rather have had it the other way? |
I don't get your point Schubert. You are comparing arguably the greatest jazz singer ever (not from me for sure) with two contemporary singers that would most likely be the first to cringe at your silly comparison. Just because they are successful maybe or is it the taste of the masses that you are digging at? I mean come on Schubert, some things are so obvious they don't need to be said. We don't need acknowledgement of that in-law of yours. What REALLY belongs on the trash heap is your mean spirited comment and lack of class, come on dude!
PS I WOULD argue that Ella could keep time with any of the best, so there! |
I started this thread expecting to hear from fans who recognize her as a great talent. If you think she's mediocre and that none of us who like her have a clue as to what a talented musician is, I've just gained an impression of you I hope nobody ever has of me.
How is she all of a sudden being compared with Sarah Vaughn? Are you drinking before 5 O'clock? |
Now boys and girls, play nice :-) |
As a jazz "aficionado", I don't get the Norah Jones, Sarah Vaugn comparison? I like Norah Jones a lot, and I like Sarah Vaugn; but I just don't get comparing the two, and I'm positive no one can explain it.
Enjoy the music.
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There's a yardstick for everything. |
Hey the bottom line is this, music is something that should bring us together. It shouldn't be a blood sport regardless of differences in tastes. We should encourage each other in our individual choices regardless of whether we agree or not. While I'm not a particular fan of this singer, I am interested in why others might be and maybe what it is that I'm missing. Why does it have to come to negative demeaning comments about a musical artist we just don't get and then bring into the discussion a legendary musical talent that no one would relish being compared to? We do enough of that in our lives than for it to intrude into the sanctuary of music, which should unite us in spite of our tastes differences. Encourage vs discourage, why hate, what is the point of that? Music is art that can draw Human Beings together regardless of race, religion or culture, it really has that power. Furthermore, there should be some degree of respect towards the OP when he voices his love of the artist. It is ok to disagree but why not try to understand or at the very least show respect? Are we all critics now hiding behind keyboards carelessly tossing out reckless criticism on a whim? There is a large enough supply of professional critics as is or do we need hear from the rank amateurs too? It is really pathetic. Everyone has an opinion, how many of us have genuine talent as these artists do? Criticism is cheap, real talent to connect people through music is rare and should be celebrated not disparaged. I don't need any damn expert to tell me whether or not I should like or dislike what I do or what's wrong with me if I don't agree with HIS opinion. You need to reread your comments Schubert and rethink and maybe elaborate and clarify further on what you said, I found it a bit disturbing.
"the good is the enemy of the best, Music is powerful stuff, bad taste in it leads to bad taste in other areas of life." |
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I don't have a hard time with anyone who doesn't like her. For goodness sakes, my wife is playing Rage Against The Machine right now. I guess that's my point. I don't ever judge anyone for their musical preference. I have no problem with whatever you enjoy, but when I'm made to feel second hand as a result of it then that's insulting. Especially when we're talking about Norah Jones. The girl is a jazz piano student. I don't care if she did well in school and I only think she used that as a launching pad but whatever she is, she's talented in my world. I guess I'm a ghetto music fan. Maybe Norah can do a duet with Kid Rock at a NASCAR event.
This is only my opinion. I can toss it around everywhere. I would love to comment on the John Foggerty thread about how much I dislike him. Why would I do that? What would that contribute to the conversation? Do those people really want to hear my negative opinion of him? I sure hope not. It's not constructive. I appreciate the music you love because it brings you here. I guess I'm just a little surprised you bring your negativity to the music forum. |
And I wish everyone happy listening. I'm listening to Annie Defranco (spelling) because I know doing this and smiling will result in a good breakfast in the morning. |
It's Schubert who does not understand, and it's very simple language. "Good" and "bad" are opposites and are not interchangeable. Just because something is good but not the best does not make it bad.
And again, Norah Jones is far above mediocre. We should all be so good at what we do. |
You need an elementary course in logic. |
Schubert, are you aware that there are top rank jazz musicians who do not think that Sarah Vaughan (that is the correct spelling by the way) is the best jazz vocalist ever?
So should we all stop all listening and instead argue and insult until we get a unanimous decision on who is the best?
And we wonder why we can't get new people interested in the high end?
I'm with Tubegroover! |
Wisdom is not a team sport.
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If it wasn't, we'd have disappeared off this planet a long time ago. |
"My tastes are simple. I am easily satisfied with the best" - Winston Churchill
"This world is not too small for a few bests" - Me
Everyone should just be THIER best. No contest |
You need an elementary course in the English language and the meaning of words. And here we go, mate:
good
adjective
adjective: good; comparative adjective: better; superlative adjective: best
1.
to be desired or approved of.
"we live at peace with each other, which is good"
synonyms: healthy, fine, sound, tip-top, hale and hearty, fit, robust, sturdy, strong, vigorous
en·e·my
noun
noun: enemy; plural noun: enemies
1.
a person who is actively opposed or hostile to someone or something.
synonyms: opponent, adversary, foe, archenemy, rival, antagonist, combatant, challenger, competitor, opposer;
the opposition, the competition, the other side, the opposing side
"he and his brother have been enemies for years"
"Best" is superlative of "good" and therefore could not possibly be construed as opposite or competitor. Case closed. |
Tostados, perhaps you understand the words, but miss the meaning, of Shubert's quote. It means, "settling for second best." The phrase is usually trotted out in the context of aspirations to achieve greatness. |
Really Lloydc? Have you read the whole thread? You might want to go back to Onhwy61's reference link on 9-7 to the actual quote apparently paraphrased by Schubert which gives it a completely different meaning. Was Schubert intentionally twisting the words to suit his position or was it just an unwitting misquote on his part? If he clearly meant what he said it sounds authoritarian, "right" and unyielding, at least in the context of this thread. You be the judge.
"Perfect is the enemy of good" (Onhwy61's 9/7 link)
"the good is the enemy of the best" (Schubert) |
Wow. Cementics Samantics Semantikcs. I think everybody will agree with Shubert on his comment if you think about it and just don't react right away. Think of ipod good. Ok When we think the ipod is good collectively what happens? Yes class(since we are talking about education and language and stuff)it leads to mediocrity. Not achieving the best. They are two opposite directions. Without getting to psychological about it is really pretty much that simple. Think about it in other areas of life and pretty much the same holds true. |
It's great to see so much passion on the music forum!!! This is what it's about. We can agree to disagree (hopefully) and be passionate about what got us all here in the first place. I hope everyone is here because of their love of music. We're never going to unanimously agree about our love of a particular musician but we can certainly disagree on ones level of talent. None of us are wrong. |
No, not everyone will agree with Schubert's comments and it is arrogant of you to think they haven't thought about it. It really is pretty much that simple.
Right now I'm listening to Norah's "Not Too Late" and enjoying her music immensely. |
I personally never thought ipod is good. I think ipod is poor. Also you are comparing equipment to artistic talent and personal taste in what moves you musically. I don't see a correlation between the two. What I take from Schubert is if I select and listen to the music or artist he deems (good taste) or best, than I will make better choices in life and gain wisdom. If I choose music he does not approve of than I will make poor decisions in life and lack wisdom. How can I sign up for that program? REALLY? If this is what he believes, he might want to check himself. |
The distaste of argument is an American characteristic, Frenchman, to cite but one example, would consider this thread mild indeed as they argue 10x this and at the end of the day no one is offended. |
What is best in serious music is not my personal taste but the collective wisdom of the best minds over the course of centuries.
To me, anyone who uses the term, "check yourself" is an uneducated boob, to you it might be the height of good taste.
So be it. |
Sounds good, recorded good, looking super good... what else is needed for pop star?
Plays OK for freshman music college level and sings a notch better than Madonna.
My professional opinion.
She's nowhere near of mastering even average classical piano pieces and needs substantially more practice vs. she's had so far, but if you have good connections in show biz, you can succeed having just minimum.
There are plenty of bar musicians far better skilled and even enjoyed by lots of visitors during their performances, but skill can't take you to the road of fame and large audiences, unless you have either substantial talent, good connections or stunning looks.
At the same time I understand and don't want to offend those who's never had any musical instrument in their hands-on. There are certain details they won't understand in music and this is for vast majority of listeners. Otherwise there would be no Madonna, Justin T, Bieber, Brittney, Kenny G, Yanni and perhaps Norah. |
Nora Jones is mediocre at best, period. Sarah Vaughan is not deep chested enough, period. Ella Fitzgerald has too much vibrato, period. Anita O'Day doesn't have enough control, period. Diana Krall has a perpetual cold, period.
Next!!! |
Hi Schubert
I like a good argument as well as the next guy but so far your argument is going all over the board and for me at least has entered the area of entertaining, man am I relieved, I hate to get too serious on line. There really is no problem whatsoever in what YOU consider good music and good taste and wisdom. I have no issue at all with that. The reason you raised my hackles (past not now)is your diminishment of other tastes if they don't happen to coincide with yours or your revered esteemed "best minds" or the Avant Garde Jazz pianist in-law that has "met them all", or so it seems. You have been given an opportunity to clarify your controversial comments and so far you have "elevated" yourself to a position above the fray that you are causing.
NOW you're going off on a different tangent and speaking of Serious Music. Presuming you are speaking of the evolution of Western Music and what is agreed to as serious. Experts (best minds as you call them) rarely agree on everything even among themselves. Your last statement bears out my suspicions of your previous comments, particularly the latter ones concerning wisdom. It seems to me at least, you are letting us mere mortals know that to elevate our awareness that there is some kind of quantifiable method of determining what is great vs. ordinary. If one misses the boat, or makes a bad taste choices there is a correlation that this will quite possibly transfer over to other bad choices in their lives? LOL, really I did after your last post. This is so preposterous that this thread has now become quite entertaining to me. I think I get you now Schubert, I really do. One question, please answer me as you have been most neglectful in requests to clarify your words, (The Pen Is Mightier Than The Sword, IME the one thing more powerful than music,) how do you quantify and filter good taste in your quest for the best and might I suggest "musical purity"? Do you have a list, a formula, a process for determining or do you rely on experts that meet your criteria? A list would be helpful also, thanks for your anticipated cooperation! |
"Employ your time in improving yourself by others mens writings so that you shall come shall come easily by what others have labored hard for" .
Socrates
"The man of wisdom is never of two minds".
Confucius
"Every man takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the world" .
Schopenhauer
" All truly wise thoughts have been thought over thousands of times, we must think them over again honestly, until they take root in our personal experience"
Goethe |
You have totally confirmed my suspicions, thanks Schubert for your response. |
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Schubert, FWIW, IMHO, if your 'wisdom' were food for thought I think many of us would starve to death. But I do think reflection on your presentation of your opinions is a lesson from which much can be gained. Even by yourself.
Donjr, I'm late on the NJ part of this thread. I like her as an entertainer, she has a very nice voice I think. Unfortunately I'm not as fond of her style of jazz (when that is her genre) and much prefer many others, even as humble as Shirley Horn who really draws me into her music.
FWIW I think drawing comparisons of composers, and for that matter, performers, assuming they are talented at all, is vacuous. It will always boil down to personal preferences for their works and/or style. IMHO of course. |
Czarivey you really make some excellent points about the business side of the music biz and how someone could be one of the choosen few based on the criteria you've outlined but wouldn't you agree that for sustainability in this business there has to be something more than can be encapsulated in some kind of formula?
Why has Madonna remained relevant for 30 years? Why did Bobby Sherman and the Partridge Family (David Cassidy) last a few years? There are many factors in the equation to sustained success that IMHO you haven't covered although it is quite obvious to me that you certainly know a bit about the subject. Norah Jones, love her or not has passed the stage of a "packaged" product to make a few bucks, the business side. She is still relevant, folks like her regardless of the things she had going for her from the start, looks, connections etc. There has to be more, a genuine talent to keep folks coming back for more. Maybe it's nothing more than determination on the part of the artist or even a great manager, or producer. But beyond even those things there has to be sustainable appeal and talent in some part or parcel to maintain success and revelancy. I doubt there will ever be a formula to get that one right all the time. |
Sure there is. It's called marketing to the masses. |
Newbee, you seem in imminent danger of same.
Tube, you seem determined to live by the fuzzy-thinkers mantra of every thing and thought being equal to every other one.
Czarivey, you are spot on, truth from start to finish.
Admirable restraint in not saying without her dad nobody would have ever heard of her. |
Schubert, her father never even saw her until she was 10. The guy wasn't a part of her life. She was a waitress and played piano in bars. It was her sister who was the recipient of Ravi's attention. Oddly enough, I like Anoushka's Sitar playing as much as I like Norah's music. That should set of a wild burning hair in someone. |
You need never to have seen her at all to make a phone call. Ravi's calls get answered. |
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