No one actually knows how to lculate what speaker cable they need

I am an engineer and designed chemical, electrical, and mechanical products. I am retired. Designed cables for instrumentation since the 80's, started recording in the 70's. The design your are suggesting might be Ok for the entry level. I would suggest that you try Oxygen Free Highly Conductive copper for your cabling. If you can not hear the difference maybe you should have your hearing checked.

Mr. tom1000

Thanks for your advice. It is not my design. It is my calculated wire with a resistance values to fit the amp's output resistance. Your OFC been grounded thin already on this thread. After all you are a late comer. A normal cooper wire is 99.8% pure (by industry standard). The OFC (Oxygen Free Highly Conductive copper), has only 0.1%-0.19% better conductivity than the ordinary wire. In my calculation it is negligible. In real life, no one can hear that difference. The OFC and purity are just to get you pay more for something that does the same job. Go for it. I'll spend my money elsewhere.

Mr. viridian

Thanks for your incite. NAIM is special. Nothing is standard with that firm and products. They have a special interconnect (not RCA and not XLR): a 3 pin DIN with bayonet. They have a look of a badly painted black shoebox and a price of bankrupt! with a green light that reminding me the Saudi flag. So is their approach to the speaker wire and interconnect cables. Buying a naim system is a closed case in deed, because it is a catholic marriage. They force you to keep with naim. They went a bit too far with that, so they turned into a cult. Like a new religion called naim! You need to join it, learn the naim bible and live by that. A tiny slip and you are out. I see you are already a preacher of that bible.

I don't like to be forced. I don't like cults and I don't like naim. Case closed.

I would like to see what you can do for me:

Croft Pre / ATC P1 power into harbeth 30.1 ... setup on side wall so need 4.5m length

Lets see how wrong I was/am

The ATC P1 power spec does not specift DF. A Q was sent to ATC. They do not answer the phone!
What cable do you have? (AWG and length).

I just spoke with ATC. The DF is 400. For 4.5m long you need 0 AWG.

b4icu OP246 posts12-11-2018 3:40pm

Mr. geoffkait

Where is Mr. Dill to help you out of this mess? All the sudden when he is most needed, he is gone. I’ve seen here some of your best friend’s comments on your say and showed it to my ex-terrestrials guests. They smiled and said: This one we kind of seen coming…

They also asked me if you worked for NASA at the time the Space Shuttle Challenger disaster (January 28, 1986)? That could explain a lot…

>>>>I suspect you’d be much better off leaving humor to someone else and sticking to your thick cable schtick. My best friend from school was Director of the Rogers Commission to Investigate the Shuttle Disaster. Did you go to cheese school? 🧀 do you think the moon landing was a hoax? Do you think the moon is made of cheese? Speaking of NASA they use very pure metals for their fuses. Do you think that means they’re gullible? NASA has been exploring advabced fuse technology ever since they used special fuses to protect micro circuitry on the GEMINI program. 

Mr. geoffkait

After your say: "they are many audiophile examples of things science supposedly can’t explain or they actually can’t explain, that I could give you here but it’s probably beyond scope, than skid into quantum physics)" and the members comments on that, it will be a while till you show your face here again.

The audiophile spell of the cables industry goes very far with you. I’m impressed you are deeply convinced of their nonsense to explain phenomenal sounds that exist only in your imagination. It is like religion: They convince you to believe in something you can’t hear (directionality), as religion had convince us to believe in something we can’t see (God)!

It is time for you to open the first audiophiles full’s church / synagogue / mosque. It seems that if you charge 10 cents per donations, you can become a milliner in no time.

Schtick ? that’s Yiddish. Are you Jewish? (BH).

"My best friend from school was Director of the Rogers Commission to Investigate the Shuttle Disaster."

Conflict of interest?

b4icu: "They also asked me if you worked for NASA at the time the Space Shuttle Challenger disaster (January 28, 1986)? That could explain a lot…"

I read that and my heart sickened. What kind of negative insinuation is that on Geoff? That’s just sad and completely uncalled for. And you got upset about my reference to a comedy show! Challenger was launched out of specification that morning, despite warnings by engineers. Politics overrode that position. Enough said. Go peddle your nonsense in another universe, please.

0 AWG is complete and utter NONSENSE!

You've got it so wrong Mr. stevecham. The Space Shuttle Challenger disaster was a combination of a bad management decision to launch it in spite of very low temperature that day and a rings and gasket technical issue that been fixed from that time on. Nothing personal.  My say to Mr. geoffkait implied he could make them (one or both) with his out of this world technical attitude. I did not called him names as you did to me.

For the right cables (what you call 0 AWG): it works. We have 3 more guys who did it and are very happy with the results. Sorry you missed it. The count is on 6 so far.

b4icu OP248 posts12-13-2018 1:13am

You’ve got it so wrong Mr. stevecham. The Space Shuttle Challenger disaster was a combination of a bad management decision to launch it in spite of very low temperature that day and a rings and gasket technical issue that been fixed from that time on. Nothing personal. My say to Mr. geoffkait implied he could make them (one or both) with his out of this world technical attitude. I did not called him names as you did to me.

Huh? What in the world are you going on about? I implied what? When? Where? Who?

" For the right cables (what you call 0 AWG): it works. We have 3 more guys who did it and are very happy with the results. Sorry you missed it. The count is on 6 so far."

Well, one is a ’friend’ of yours, two are are ’friend’s’ of another member here and are not available to answer questions from us. I would put that in the hearsay category and should not be included on the chart. I am sure you will disagree.

"...a bad management decision to launch it in spite of very low temperature that day..."

I know nothing about Space Shuttles but was the low temperature at the launch site really that crucial for something designed to, minutes later, be in temperatures that are hardly ever, if ever, observed on Earth’s surface? I am not trying to make this into a Space Shuttle thread, although it is becoming one, but it seems illogical to a complete layman.

What am I missing here? Where was that low temperature?

"My say to Mr. geoffkait implied he could make them (one or both)…"

It is not "geoffkait implied". It is "what I said to Mr. geoffkait implied that he could make them..." b4icu's statement implied that geoffkait could do something. He did not say that geoffkait implied something. 

Kids, each one to his own room and do the homework.

Mr. Dill

Why would you doubt members or my integrity? We have nothing to gain or lose. There is no money or profit involved. It is a scientific fact that some guys went the extra mile to try it and returned to share their impression. Most also showed some gratitude and appreciation. Sorry for you and some others, who try for long to undermined this idea and write any possible post to go against it.

I should be the one to be subspecies with your perseverance and tenacity, that you are driven by some industry agendas. Even thou you denied, there is no way for someone to spend so much time and energy for a crusade like yours.  

Ok, you caught me, geoff and I are in the cable business. Our company has developed a formula based on common sense and practical application. Wire that can actually bend and not possibly rip the connectors out of the gear. Wire that would complement the looks of our listening environment. Wire that 99.9% of the world's audio enthusiasts use today and will in the future. Wire that sounds great and won't break the budget. Wire that one doesn't have to buy tools to build. Wire made by people that don't demand that we know all and if you disagree, you are a liar. Wire that will actually stay in the system for more than a month or so. Wire that doesn't claim "a scientific fact that some guys went the extra mile to try it and returned to share their impression". Wire that helps one dial in a system that is emotionally satisfying, not so called " scientifically" correct. Isn't that, after all, why we build these systems? 

This should be interesting, the saga continues ...
https://www.stereophile.com/content/speaker-cables-5

Mr. kosst_amojan

In science, there are ways to deal with claims. Some are proven right others to be wrong. History will tell if any other came earlier to claim the same. On both, I never had a guy on this thread to prove me wrong. All claims were of "different" nature. The so called jumper cables is not exactly what I claim, as some need less thick and other more thick cables, as per their equipment.

My say doesn’t claim anything new or unknown so far to the electronics or electricity science. I just say that there is a relation between amp’s property’s (DF) and the speaker cable required resistance. On the fly, many tried to get me down from this idea, with variety of says, most common urban myths of the cables industry, till we got to Quantum mechanics. I’ll give that the benefit of the doubt, it was funny. For those who gave it a try, with a moderate budget of under US $100.- ended up embracing this idea and very happy with the results.

The audio industry had many claims since it was introduced. Some were well done and stayed. Others came and gone. At the time they were in fashion, some made a lot of money. Money we paid for listening and purchasing that idea. The same was with media and standards. Like the Mini Disc and the ATRAC coding method (SONY). Some made an impressing comeback: LP and tube amplification.

“In science, there are ways to deal with claims. Some are proven right others to be wrong. History will tell if any other came earlier to claim the same. On both, I never had a guy on this thread to prove me wrong. All claims were of "different" nature. The so called jumper cables is not exactly what I claim, as some need less thick and other more thick cables, as per their equipment.”

@b4icu That’s true, nobody here proved you wrong. But, and here’s the kicker, you didn’t prove anybody wrong here, either. You know, like wire directionality and conductor purity, for example. And there’s a reason for that. In science, you cannot prove a negative. Hel-loo! Be that as it may, you haven’t even proved yourself right. How about them apples? 🍎 

Mr. kosst_amojan

From where do you take this information about cable thickness and massive amount of impedance?

This site would suggests otherwise: https://chemandy.com/calculators/round-wire-impedance-calculator.htm

At material = Cooper, Fr. = 0.02MHz (20KHz), Length = 2m, Diameter = 20mm, Z = 0.00012 Ohms!

At 2mm, Z = 0.00143 (>10x worse or higher impedance).

The skin effect is about full power of a 0 AWG @ a Fr. of 250Hz @ 150Amp's. It doesn't need that kind of current at any Fr. Or power. A 1,000W power into 8 ohms would require 16 Amps.

Not to say, that in Audio most energy above 10KHz are harmonies, with substantial less power than the basic Fr. (-20dB less = x100 times less).

For some reason, those who tried it out were very happy with the results.

Sorry for the "0" on length. The new value is 0.00369 ohms and not 0.25 ohms as you say. Anyway, what about my Q:
"From where do you take this information about cable thickness and massive amount of impedance?"

Regarding Interconnects, it's another thread...

I use XLR, no Litz. The entire Pro industry use XLR, at length of 100 meters and longer, no loss! On 2m, it is perfect.

A short reminder: This thread is about speakers cables. 

No LAN cat 6, No balanced interconnects (XLR) or any other.

Until you answer my Q. don't expect to be answered.

With all the respect to Mr. Nelson Pass he went the wrong path. No one here approved his cable sounds better than other, but mine did.  

"With all the respect to Mr. Nelson Pass he went the wrong path."
- Now that's rich, have you any idea what he has accomplished?

"No one here approved his cable sounds better than other, but mine did."
- Nelson Pass doesn't make cables. You have stated 6 people have tried your "secret formula", only the ones that have shared their results on this thread have standing. The others are hearsay. Why don't you reveal your formula?
Educate yourself: https://www.passlabs.com/#

This has been an entertaining read.

The thread title was enough to know what's coming...

What kind of "relavent data" is necessary? What is a manufacturer expected to answer?

5 pages of comment, and  no real direction from the OP.
Just subjective opinion and know it all responses to everything.

With the OP's vast knowledge, he should know he isn't going to get the answers he's looking for.

Audio madness on display.





 

Nelson Pass is not the subject of this thread. If I will go deeper into that concept, you think you can keep up representing Nelson Pass's theory? I don't think so.

Don't get me other's says. Bring yours. This thread is pretty much got the attention and cooperation I hoped for. You and your dear friends are now here just to do damage and keep me busy with your crap that you dig and fish over the web.

So, unless you come up with some real stuff of your own, you better save your time.

What happened to you, to sit num for so long?

It must be a triumph for you to complete an entire research in quantum mechanics and come up with a tangible result of some measurements.

What was my recommendation for a speaker cable for your setup?

Did you try that out and listened, just as some other guys here did, and came back with some very flattering and enlighten experiences?

What measurements?
May we see some of those results, how they were measured (test setup)?

What was the reference cable to show a fundamental difference, to prove your case?

To say, everybody can. To prove some real data behind this would be more challenging. For you, a bright scientist in quantum mechanics, it must be easy.