No one actually knows how to lculate what speaker cable they need
It goes back to cable manufaturars, mostly provide no relevant data! to sales and the users. None will answer this! Whay do you think that you own now the optimal cable to your setup? I think I've figured it out.
Mr. han_n
I'd call CH Swiss to check about your M1 Amp.: " Dear Michael,
Thank you for your interest in our
products.
The damping factor of an amplifier
being the ratio between the connected loudspeaker's impedance and the
amplifier's output impedance, we can not publish a single number.
We would need to publish a damping
factor for each possible load (like any amplifier manufacturer should), but
also for every setting of global versus local feedback ratio of our amplifier
(which is user-adjustable on the fly from fully global to fully local, with 9
evenly-spaced steps in between), as this setting has a direct effect on the
M1's output impedance.
At full global feedback, the M1's
output impedance is measured at 0.013 Ohm. So in a 8 Ohm loudspeaker, this
means a damping factor of 615.
At full local feedback (no global
feedback at all), the M1's output impedance is 0.09 Ohm. So in a 8 Ohm
loudspeaker, this means a damping factor of about 90.
As a loudspeaker cable of a few
meters probably has an impedance of more than 10 mOhm, it might actually have a
dominant effect compared to the amplifier's output load, at full global
feedback.
I hope this answers your question.
Best regards,
Loris Stehlé"
If we go for the best I would say that the M1 \'s DF is >500.
But when I looked into your speakers: Gryphon Pendragon
I found that the bass unit is self amplified by a 1,000W amp. It is connected to your Pre. by XLR and no speaker cable is required.
The Mid/High unit is a ribbon. So a regular wire (12 AWG would do). Even thou your system is very expensive, you can save big on the cables. :-)
The Bi wire - Bi amp on the Gryphon Pendragon
Mid/High unit won't give you any improvement. only cost way more, if you think of another pair of CH M1's ($37,000.- each).
@b4icu As mentioned before, the cables were made by Kharma. (grand reference speaker cable). Did not buy new, but at an auction. This is a silver/gold alloy cable, with an anti-vibration tube around it. Does it matter? I don’t know, all I know is that I’m happy with what I’m hearing. Price?? This is an old cable, which many years ago would cost US $ 20k or more, I paid about 1/10th of that amount for a 3 meter set. The diameter of the conductor going into one spade (factory terminated, and bigger spades than usual) is about 8mm. So I’m using two of that. Why? because it’s there anyway. Bought the cables years ago for another speaker set-up. By the way, in principle I don’t buy many new cables. Prices of second hand cables drop quite a bit, prices of cables at auctions are even much lower yet. Used to use Siltech cables in the past, did like those as well. Again, never bought new cables.
b4icu Geoffkait - You can not chalange me on technical arguments, so you push it to none relevant subjects.
>>Two things. I can spell challenge and non. And I pointed out your technical error regarding the relative conducting capabilities of silver and copper. You were off by 30%. Looks relevant to me.
This thread is taking its turn away from anything close to useful.
Would it be better if those who do not believe what b4icu is claiming simply drop off and those who still have some interest contact her/him with their equipment data in private?
"
What do you gain of it, except getting a bad reputation?" Well, at least it took geoff 11,000+ posts in 6+ years. You have reached that goal in 10 days & 65 posts, Congratulations!
Mr.
geoffkait What about finding yourself something useful
to
do? All you contribute, are notes that has nothing to do with the subject. You can not chalange me on technical arguments, so you push it to none relevant subjects. What do you gain of it, except getting a bad reputation?
b4icu"I'm sorry you had nothing meaningful to contribute to this conversation"
That is not his fault, responsibility, or deficiency the problem is that this thread is moronic in nature, substance, and topic because the claim, assertion and conviction of the OP can be shown to be confused, disoriented and mistaken as its basis, claim, and fundamental premise is flawed and defective.
Mr.
stevecham I'm sorry you had nothing meaningful to contribute to this conversation. The thing is very simple. I can provide you with the data you need, of what cable would serve your system best. Upon, you are welcome to try it and see for yourself. What if that would sound much better than what you have now? You should try it, rather than kick and shout sitting on the floor saying you don't want it.
Mr.
han_n The amp has no data on it's DF. I sent an e-mail to find that out. I need that to do the calculation. Regarding your bi-Wire, it is not a good idea. Bi amp and Bi wire: yes. A single wire equal to the gauge of the bi wire combined, would do better than the bi wire. So this aproach is of no practical benefit. Did you say 4/0 AWG? How much did they cost and who made them?
A real skeptic has curiosity and investigates and tries to get to the bottom of things. A real skeptic can sometimes change his mind, you know, based on experience or evidence. An overly skeptical person, on the other hand, ✋refuses to change his mind for any reason, even in the face of contradicting evidence. I.e., his mind 🧠 is closed on the subject. Capish? That’s where the P word comes from, you know, the word that’s been uh, outlawed.
And what defines an expensive high end cable? What price point please? I just may have purchased one or two sets in the past and I need to make sure what side of the "end" I fall on.
The reason we don't see complaints from people who spent money on expensive high end cables is that they are too embarrased to admit that they wasted money on a wish, a prayer and gossamer.
Dazzling lights flash, bells chime, trumpets blast, money-as-confetti flies every where, rock stars emerge from giant cakes, the ghost of J. Gordon Holt appears and personally shakes everyones hand.
If you have such a "formula," which implies a quantitative, calculated solution based on quantifiable input factors and the means, instrumentation or otherwise to verifiably measure such quantitative variables, what are the factors that are measured and used to calculate the optimal speaker cable features?
I’ll bet you have absolutely NO such measurable factors and no such instrumentation and are simply blowing smoke up all of our proverbial exit chimneys.
"...you really think that giving away this formula is a brilliant idea, to satisfy your personal need to know?"
I do not think it is a brilliant idea but I also see no harm, unless a person is starting a business with that formula. Of course, there is no desperate need to disclose it either way, the world will go on. I am not arguing about validity of questioning and establishing the formula, but the topic and intention of the original post is less than clear. It got even less clear over the ensuing posts.
Those people who do buy stories and expensive cables may be happy, too. The value of those cables perceived by you and me may be different than value of those cables perceived by them. It works for them, if for nothing else then because the cable came with a story. Many products are marketed like that and buyers are not only happy but proud, too.
The tone of your posts suggests that you dislike expensive cable manufacturers approach and stories they attach to their products. You imply you, to say it simplified, have a formula that is far superior to their stories. As a neutral observer, I would say that putting your facts/formula out would go much further in debunking the myths than just saying "they are bad and I figured it all out". It would simply give more credibility to your statements.
I have no personal need to know the formula or any theory behind wires, but I do hope that han_n does find your calculations useful. It would definitely be much-needed first step in some meaningful direction.
By the way, out of sheer curiosity, how did you guess that I am "Mr" and not "Mrs"?
Sorry, I meant the cable type is for bi-wiring, meaning directly after the amp output cable spades (factory terminated) the cable is split into two, so at the speaker terminals it could feed into two pair of terminals per speaker. Luckily the terminals used for the Gryphon Pendragons are really very big, so they can accommodate 2 spades in one terminal, That way I have double the wire gauge. Any use, I don’t know, I already had these cables anyway, and I’m quite happy with the overall performance of my set-up.
@b4icu Power amp is CH precision M1, speaker system is Gryphon Pendragon, cable length 3 meter, cable is Kharma reference type, bi-amped, however all connected to the same binding posts, so that will possibly total AWG 4/0 or more. Next year I will add another M1, so may be that counts as well??
Mr.
han_n I can help you. Please tell me what amp. and speakers you have, what is the required length of the speaker cables to connect them, and what is the cable (gauge) you are using now. I'll do that calculation for you.
@b4icu You seem to misunderstand my point, all I'm saying here is that even amongst you guys -I do not doubt the intelligence of any of you in this discussion, in fact I'm often impressed- there is a disagreement, so for somebody like me it will be difficult to come to a simple conclusion. So if I would be using a GPS NAV, whilst obviously it would not be clear in giving me directions how to find the best route, I may switch it off, and find my way the old fashioned way. Don't worry, I have done that for over 40 years or so, and it is not impossible. Currently I do not know if I have the best possible system at home, or may be that I have paid too much for that, I'm fine with that too. I have the satisfaction I'm looking for, so I'm okay.
Would you use the same method when you are driving your car
to an unfamiliar place? Just drive and drive without any particular direction,
till you find it (or not). Willing to pay the money and time?
Well, most would just use a GPS NAV device, enter detonation and pick the
fastest or shortest way to get there. That's seems to make more sense to me,
than just driving without directions.
As
with GPS NAV, with a formula and science, you can get the right and optimal
cable on your first attempt. It will save you the time and money chasing that
till end of times.
Because
even if you are there (not knowing) you may continue the journey to find a
better one, that do not exist.
Good
luck and enjoy, your blind folded search.
I hope
that when it will get to a cure for a disease, you will find more effectives
ways to get it. It may also be an eye opener for other things in life, you try
to solve.
In a market that is loaded with schemes, awkward tells of
directional wires, skin effect and many more, cables that goes for thousands
and tens of thousands of dollars, you really think that giving away this
formula is a brilliant idea, to satisfy your personal need to know?
Did
you ask for the formula from other
sources, that are in the industry and tell those awkward tells of
directional wires, skin effect and many more?
Most,
had buy the story (with the cable) without the formula! Because there is no
formula for those tells. The only formula they have is marketing and cash flow.
So now what.... Myself being a mechanical engineer, I mostly have no clue what you guys, being talented electrical engineers, are talking about. However, fortunately or unfortunately, as the debate -even amongst the most talented electrical engineers- continues, I will have to try out cables, and let my ears decide which ones I like the most. I will have no technical explanation on why a certain cable sounds better to my opinion...but for me, I'm fine with that. That's also what I like about this hobby, there is no clear 1+1=2 solution. I would not even like that...
"Whay do you think that you own now the optimal cable to your setup?"
The sound comes out of the speakers.
What is this thread about? Four sentences out of which three are statements which seem to imply some undisputable facts. The fourth one is the question above which is either suspiciously easy to answer, or is too vague to answer.
If there is some formula, what is the harm of giving it away? Is this some marketing scheme?
Mr.
kosst_amojan Why should I give you the formula? Post it on the web is giving it away to all. I don't think that you would do it, or any body else would do it. I gave some the final results, after they told me what equipment it connects and the length they need. This is as far I'm willing to go.
I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it appears you don’t even know what wire directionality is. How can I in good conscience argue with you any longer?
Thanks, but no thanks. It is not a Nobel price thing. The fact that others didn’t came up with that before, is their shame, not my triumph.
Now it’s for you to pick a side.
I know that the butter on this bread slice is more with the cryogenic treat, the skin effect, the directional wire, the silver and all that stuff. Unfortunately, you haven’t offered them the Nobel Price! Did you?
They did well. They offered you crap and were taking your money. That worth a nobel price.
Mr. geoffkait
The fact you are an engineer, should help you understand better than others,
what I'm saying. I'm sorry that you can't do that.
I assume that there are also plenty of good and talented engineers with those
cable firms, that also never solved it.
Instead,
they came up with all kind of ferry tails.
I’d read the long article. It is not providing an answer, of what speakers cables I need to my system. It mostly tackles phenomena that are minor or do not exist at all with speaker cables.
I can NOT take that information that your article provides, and go shopping for my new speaker cables.
The article may look impressing to a none engineering skilled eye. For an engineer (mostly analog) It will be on the edge of ridicules or absurd.
What I’m saying, is that I can do such a calculation and provide the accurate data of what cable I need. As that been repeated and the results were profound and consistence, I can tell that it works.
My relationship to engineering is that I am one. And my understandings are by no means unique. Actually, my understandings are rather with the majority of high end audiophiles. Better luck next time.
Why would you say: " No one actually knows how to
calculate what speaker cable they need", when I just said I do?
Audio, as many other things is based on science. Not just listening and likes.
All that knowledge that been put into the equipment is coming from calculation
and monticules design.
Not by
audiophiles that tried all possible options and ended up with one they like
most.
This
fact, of "No one actually knows how to calculate what speaker
cable they need" is
very sad. I'm in this hobby for 45 years, and it's time to change that.
During
that long period of time, many firms took advantage of our ignorance, telling tells
of ferry tails for tons of money, spent for their benefit, rather than ours.
This is NOT in any way addressed to GK. I understand you have your own relationship to engineering and unique undertandings. b4icu you seem to have a partial handle on some aspects of signal transmission physics, perhaps this link might be partly useful http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_verdadcables.htm If not, no problem. Most engineers understand that damping factor is swamped by the nature of driver, uniformly low amp output impedance, little effected by typical lengths of speaker wire. Best wishes.
I've mentioned before (but really, you simply can't get enough of these fascinating tales) that my current speaker cable was chosen because Bill Low, who just happened to be standing behind me at a shop when I was talking about bi-wire cables with a sales dude, personally handed me a set and said, "use these." He said some interesting things like his personal hifi rig is in his bedroom (!), and that some sort of magnetic interference issue was obviated by the separate runs of wire in his Rocket cables. My "Marshall McLuhan" hifi moment. And the cables get the juice to the speakers with aplomb.
No one actually knows how to calculate what speaker cable they need. If listening specifications and comparing data information on all audio equipment was the final solution, many good companies would go out of business. Tube equipment and turntables would be extinct. Specs are important, but audio is listening (to what the end user is happy with). That said, for me a well made, proper gauge cable is all that is needed.
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