Next best exponential DAC quality level?

@lemonhaze ,

I am taking George Carlin's advice and keeping a list ....

Thought I was on an audio forum, not a competition for village idiot of the year. Hang in there candymount, you have a chance at fame.

Probably not, the BluOS experience is still the same which is pretty decent. Nevertheless, the new Node is a good upgrade from the Node 2i, adding additional features like eARC HDMI, USB Audio output (eventually) and enhanced touch screen. The Node also has high resolution audio capacity (up from 192kHz to 384kHz) thus giving the impression of better sound quality as all in one unit.

@lalitk 

I will probably begrudgingly buy one when they release USB support, and after giving others time to reveal any bugs and have them fixed. For a niche product, you really can't beat the price, and the compatibility with streaming services does not appear matched by others.

I have no horse in this race, but arafiq's post should be required reading every time someone decides to post in any forum here. It applies to every topic in this hobby. Emphasis on hobby. Well done sir.

I also think there’s a bit of a messiah complex at work here. There are certain underlying assumptions that form the basis, and certainly the tone, that is evident in many posts ...

1. Most audiophiles are fools who can be parted with their money easily. Since I’ve read about specs and multiple wikipedia articles on the technical aspects, it is my moral obligation to save these fools from themselves.

2. The higher DACs, or any audio component for that matter, are nothing more than unscrupulous manufacturers and designers who are out to fleece the audiofools.

3. I have a background in network engineering, and therefore that makes me an expert on all things ’audio’. I need to save the uninformed audifools from themselves.

4. Specs are vastly superior to actual listening experience. I can tell everything about a component by reading specs, graphs, and charts. Actual listening is vastly overrated. The audifools are incapable of understanding things like implicit bias, double blind tests, and pretty much anything. I need to save the audiofools from themselves,

5. Those who buy high end DACs only do it because they've got money to burn and its more about bragging rights than actual music enjoyment. It's my moral obligation to set these pretentious bastards right.

6. If I can't hear a difference between a $99 and $10K DAC, this must be the ultimate truth. Everybody else who claims otherwise is an audiofool.

7. I’m the smartest man on this forum, therefore anyone who disagrees with me is an audifool.

@martinman  There may be a couple variables in your system causing the DACs you've auditioned to sound very similar. What are you using to stream Amazon Music?  If a computer, then a general purpose computer will never sound as good as a good quality purpose built streamer, especially if you use a USB cable from a computer to your HINT 6 integrated.  What's the quality of your Internet network in your home?  Make sure you're not using WiFi for Amazon Music playback and use good quality Ethernet cables. I recently added an EtherREGEN device to my home network that feeds my Streamer/DAC and was amazed at the SQ improvement. 

It will help if you can isolate everything in your system used to play Amazon Music.  One way to do this is to get access to a decent CD player preferably connected to your HINT 6 via XLR cables.  Select a Redbook CD you're very familiar with.  Then look for the same album on Amazon Music at Redbook CD resolution and compare the SQ. In most cases, the SQ of the local CD will sound better but it should be a close fight.  If you find that the local CD is noticeably better, then use the free 14-day Qobuz trial as many on this forum have suggested.  This will help you compare Amazon Music to Qobuz. If you still find the local CD sounds better, then it's likely the computer or USB cable or both that are your weak links in the chain.

 

hshifi

495 posts

11-30-2021 5:25pm

Hello,

I have demoed the Hint6 and it is very good for what it is. I call it the Swiss Army knife of integrated amps. It does everything ok. That’s just it. It doesn’t do anything great. I am going to suggest you listen to a Hegel 190. The Hegel 120 will do very well to. Hegel goes great with KEF speakers. The DAC, preamp, and amp section inside will put the Hint6 to shame. Once you demo a Hegel you will get it. This store in the Chicagoland area is a dealer for all of this if you want to check this out or demo things in your home. Actually Holm Audio is having a KEF, Ayre, and Nordost demo event this Thursday, December 2nd from 12:00 to 9:00pm. If you call the store they will give you details. 

You may want to read the recent review of the Hegel H95  in audio science review. It measured very poorly.

Folks, I read this thread with interest and some amusement.  

Kudos to cindyment for their thoughtful, rational and respectful responses and explanations. I certainly hope that more people of this intelectual caliber remain in this group. 

Ah, the truth behind the controversial SQ differences among dacs.  I ended up with a D70S and that's fine enough for me.

“I’m wondering if the new node is better sounding as a streamer only than the older node 2.”

@mofojo

Probably not, the BluOS experience is still the same which is pretty decent. Nevertheless, the new Node is a good upgrade from the Node 2i, adding additional features like eARC HDMI, USB Audio output (eventually) and enhanced touch screen. The Node also has high resolution audio capacity (up from 192kHz to 384kHz) thus giving the impression of better sound quality as all in one unit.

I’m wondering if the new node is better sounding as a streamer only than the older node 2. Node has freaked out a few times in the last week and was making kinda fluttering noises through the speakers. Need to unplug and back in and goes away. 

@mofojo 

The Node 2 is a bit of a black sheep. I had one too. I think a lot of us did. If you said you passed a blind test, I would not be one to be discounting it. It not only measures not very well, but I was convinced that the performance was variable. I think I read that someone showed it was susceptible to inter-sample overs, but I could never be bothered to find out. My son is quite happy with it now.

I know a lot of people who own RME products. They are really solid. I don't have any experience with the Burson.

I am in a transition of my system and was stuck with just the Dac inside the Node 2 for a few weeks. It sounded pretty descent. Locally just bought a Burson Composer 3xp. No contest. Could I pass a blind test? Yes I believe I easily could. Could tell from the 1st 10 seconds. Wish I still had my RME to compare. I liked that one as well. 

Yes well when one is a new kid on the block it is usually a good idea to not make too many enemies. Some people are better at that than others but it is no doubt a good strategy for success. Too much conflict never ends well. It’s a failure plain out. Better for a wise man to learn how to get along with others for the benefit of all. Of course it’s an imperfect world so one can only strive with the knowledge that some things are out of one’s control. But many are not. Like how you treat and respect others including those with differing views.

If accused falsely I would merely clearly deny it. If it persists after that then one has done their part and can only move on. Best to not get caught up in constant pissing contests. It’s a bad look for all! No winners.

Just my opinion…..

Legend 😁

@mapman,

I am not sure that is targeted at me or others, but one must first assess who you are in conflict with. I seem to be in "conflict" with a small but very vocal set of people. Others have applauded me, and based on their other posts, I care more about their acceptance, than about those "in conflict".

You have heard the, attributed to Japanese culture, "The nail that sticks out highest, is the first to be hammered down". Did you know that came from a taoist proverb, 木秀於林，風必摧之?  Which translates, not by me, to "The tree that grows tallest, will always be the first to be toppled by the winds". This proverb is not saying "don't be the tallest tree", it is a cautionary tale, that if you are the tallest tree, which is viewed as the best tree, to be prepared. Do you want to be the Bristlecone pine, that while the longest lived, no one cares about and no one goes to see, or do you want to be the Giant Sequoia that lives almost as long, but which people plan trips around and have on their bucket list? History is full of people who changed the world, and who had to go through a lot of "conflict with others" to get there.

If one finds themselves in constant conflict with others, the only viable thing to do is  look in the mirror and assess.  
 

Or you can can just always put all the blame on others and see where that gets you which is nowhere. 

@arafiq ,

No need for me to reply to this.

Lol @ outrage! There's only one person here who's been foaming at the mouth since the thread ended 1.5 pages ago. How dare these fools don't bow to my greatness? I am the self-appointed ethics czar of audio, don't you understand?

I also think there’s a bit of a messiah complex at work here. There are certain underlying assumptions that form the basis, and certainly the tone, that is evident in many posts ...

1. Most audiophiles are fools who can be parted with their money easily. Since I’ve read about specs and multiple wikipedia articles on the technical aspects, it is my moral obligation to save these fools from themselves.

2. The higher DACs, or any audio component for that matter, are nothing more than unscrupulous manufacturers and designers who are out to fleece the audiofools.

3. I have a background in network engineering, and therefore that makes me an expert on all things ’audio’. I need to save the uninformed audifools from themselves.

4. Specs are vastly superior to actual listening experience. I can tell everything about a component by reading specs, graphs, and charts. Actual listening is vastly overrated. The audifools are incapable of understanding things like implicit bias, double blind tests, and pretty much anything. I need to save the audiofools from themselves,

5. Those who buy high end DACs only do it because they've got money to burn and its more about bragging rights than actual music enjoyment. It's my moral obligation to set these pretentious bastards right.

6. If I can't hear a difference between a $99 and $10K DAC, this must be the ultimate truth. Everybody else who claims otherwise is an audiofool.

7. I’m the smartest man on this forum, therefore anyone who disagrees with me is an audifool.

Lol @ outrage! There's only one person here who's been foaming at the mouth since the thread ended 1.5 pages ago. How dare these fools don't bow to my greatness? I am the self-appointed ethics czar of audio, don't you understand?

Smartest man? No, but I appear to be one of the only people who acts like an adult @arafiq, as once again, your post is all about discrediting me, not addressing point by point or at all really my argument. Same tired points in a tireless need to discredit because you cannot address the topic properly.

I would not claim to be the smartest man in this thread, but based purely on the observation of what has been written, I appear to have by far the most actual knowledge of DACs, how they are designed, how they work, what impacts performance, what does not, how they truly behave in systems, not how I think they behave or have been told they behave. That's not from Wikipedia either. Have you ever injected various levels of jitter into a DAC to see what happens and both measured AND listened? I have. The op was looking for an informed opinion on what he experienced. I gave him one.  Have you ever tried a $99 DAC (I would suggest $200 for a nice case) connected to a low cost USB isolator with basic linear power supply and compared that to a $10,000 DAC designed to accurately replicate a signal. More likely you accuse others of what you are guilty of.

I have been quite clear that many high priced DACs are designed with a specific sonic signature targeting personal preference, not to accurately reproduce the waveform. I have no qualms, and am quite supportive of this pursuit, but I will take issue when said supplier that does that claims "improved accuracy". I am totally with @lalitk on this point that sound preference (lets not use quality) is the most important thing.

On the other hand, many high end DACs are statement pieces that may have slightly better measured performance, though inaudible. If someone has the money to buy one, or doesn't and still does, again I have no issue. Do I take issue with companies that claim they are "technically superior" but don't back it up, and when put to the test fail, I do, and I would hope others do as well. That is not ethical.

The op was right, this thread ended 1.5 pages ago. Unfortunately the outrage has not.

@redlenses03 +1

I also think there’s a bit of a messiah complex at work here. There are certain underlying assumptions that form the basis, and certainly the tone, that is evident in many posts ...

1. Most audiophiles are fools who can be parted with their money easily. Since I’ve read about specs and multiple wikipedia articles on the technical aspects, it is my moral obligation to save these fools from themselves.

2. The higher DACs, or any audio component for that matter, are nothing more than unscrupulous manufacturers and designers who are out to fleece the audiofools.

3. I have a background in network engineering, and therefore that makes me an expert on all things ’audio’. I need to save the uninformed audifools from themselves.

4. Specs are vastly superior to actual listening experience. I can tell everything about a component by reading specs, graphs, and charts. Actual listening is vastly overrated. The audifools are incapable of understanding things like implicit bias, double blind tests, and pretty much anything. I need to save the audiofools from themselves,

5. Those who buy high end DACs only do it because they've got money to burn and its more about bragging rights than actual music enjoyment. It's my moral obligation to set these pretentious bastards right.

6. If I can't hear a difference between a $99 and $10K DAC, this must be the ultimate truth. Everybody else who claims otherwise is an audiofool.

7. I’m the smartest man on this forum, therefore anyone who disagrees with me is an audifool.

“There is so much more then a spec sheet and measurements. Those are most certainly important, but its not the end all, not even close.

It really is a preference thing and in this hobby it’s ultimately about SQ and how well that SQ moves you on an emotional level. You either understand that point of view or you don’t, since for most in this hobby that is what it’s all about.

If that aspect isn’t important or not what you’re after, that’s totally fine. Reaching that elusive emotional aspect with either the best measured or not best measure component isn’t the goal.“

@redlenses03 nailed it!

The TESLA 3 with Dual Motor's, which is about $55,000 does a 0-60 in about 3.1 seconds, which is better than almost every Ferrari ever made except the most recent 488 at > $250,000 and some previous ultra expensive models.

Electric vs petrel? Apples to apples, ummmm not so much. If I had a choice between those two, it wouldn’t be the boring, sterile, zero feeling, zero feedback one.

There is a reason this is the case for many. If you don’t understand that analogy/reasoning, that’s fine and is your personal preference.

The irony here is that you are doing the same thing (with a vengeance) to others that disagree with you. There is so much more then a spec sheet and measurements. Those are most certainly important, but its not the end all, not even close.

It really is a preference thing and in this hobby it’s ultimately about SQ and how well that SQ moves you on an emotional level. You either understand that point of view or you don’t, since for most in this hobby that is what it’s all about. If that aspect isn’t important or not what you’re after, that’s totally fine. Reaching that elusive emotional aspect with either the best measured or not best measure component isn’t the goal.

The TESLA 3 with Dual Motor’s, which is about $55,000 does a 0-60 in about 3.1 seconds, which is better than almost every Ferrari ever made except the most recent 488 at > $250,000 and some previous ultra expensive models.

Yeah, but all it will ever be is a Tesla. 🤔

Tell ya what. I’ll race ya. You in a Tesla and me in my Silverado. We’ll start on the east coast and finish on the west coast.

@lordmelton : I see you deleted your post that @cindyment is quoting. Unfortunate, because it was clear you didn’t realize that I was the OP.

1.5 pages of useful stuff, 1.5 pages of alley way pushing and shoving.

This is BS. I think we all need to go outside (myself included).

You all should be congratulating me like @ghasley did -- ffs.

Heck, I’m jealous of the guy...he and the OP have apparently found musical bliss for $100! I would give $100 if I could find musical bliss for $100 LOL.

The unofficial end of thread was 1.5 pages ago...    

I think you have your answer @martinman. Several posters have spent now pages trying to discredit me. Not discredit what I wrote other than hand waving about $10K DACs and $99 DACs, but discredit me because I have the audacity to say, and explain in basic, honest, and accurate terms why you are not finding much if any difference between your DACs, which are all inexpensive, but based on modern, near state of the art chips, competently designed. I even pointed out where you may run into system issues with these lower cost DACS (that expensive DACs may or may not fix) and what you may or may not experience with expensive DACs.

In another thread, "Single Ended DAC vs Dual Differential XLR DAC", there are many defending the "sound" of what may be the worst audio DAC ever made including attacking the website that did a proper test and showed how poor this product is. One of those people doing that is attacking me here as well.

But @martinman , not only are they attacking me. They are now attacking you. According to them, you are delusional. How does that make you feel?

Martin is delusional. How could you possibly think the $99 DAC could be anything other than a $99 DAC unless the Chinese are selling $10,000 DACs for $99 now to put everyone else out of business.

Yeah +100 lowrider 57, Cindy and Martin have come on the Ferrari forum telling everyone that their Honda City can do 0-60 mph in under 3 secs so why should they pay $1m for a Ferrari?

The TESLA 3 with Dual Motor's, which is about $55,000 does a 0-60 in about 3.1 seconds, which is better than almost every Ferrari ever made except the most recent 488 at > $250,000 and some previous ultra expensive models.

Op, do you want a real answer, or a made up one?

Does that sound silly? This whole thread is silly.

DAC chips are so good today, that you can make a DAC for a few hundred dollars that is better than human hearing will ever be. Add another few hundred dollars and you can isolate that from any noise source. Add in a low volume premium and for under $1,000 you can have something perfect.

Now if you want something that is not perfect, that will cost you big bugs, because then you are paying for art, not reproduction.

Are we supposed to take people seriously that compare highly distorting tube outputs to no distortion solid state? Seems silly. Changing a setting on a DAC for the output filter and a multi-thousand $$ DAC will create more difference between it and itself than it will with similar filter setting between it and a much cheaper DAC.

You are asking a group of people for an opinion who have never compared without looking at whats playing, without ensuring the volume is exactly the same, or learning what the filters do and why they may impart a sound, hence DO sound different, and who think NOS is the be-all, when it is just a noise mess, but sure it does sound different.

Good luck on your quest, but these are not the droids you are looking for ... I mean the answer to the question you seek.

I rarely taunt other members but you set the tone of this thread by coming out with both guns blazing. Every other post was you denigrating members' contributions. I love the attitude that nobody here is capable of comparing equipment in an audition. The many manufacturers and designers that frequent this forum have too much class to join this thread and tell you what's what. I don't expect these experts to contribute their valuable knowledge to a thread with such mean-spirited overtones. 

Apologies to the OP.

@lowrider57 , well when the members with 4,661 posts don't call out bad behavior I guess the new guy has to do it. Do you consider that a badge of honor and consider the behavior acceptable, including 10 troll posts from one person and frequent attempts at personal degradation, not addressing post content?

I don't.

It's funny, the guy who's been here one day telling members how to behave on the forum. And he's been so considerate.

I hear you…ill just lurk, post when the mood strikes, make fun of the absurd from time to time and generally expercise moderation in all I am able lol.

@ghasley 

the pollution level has gotten so incredibly high this week

i suspect most of the respected, long time contributors are so tired of the garbage and ready to pack it in

really too bad... perhaps tammy et all have taken the week off

Heck, I'm jealous of the guy...he and the OP have apparently found musical bliss for $100! I would give $100 if I could find musical bliss for $100 LOL.

When people think its about the chip and then brace themselves to vigorously defend their position like a jr high debate team alternate, I tend to just carry on. I will probably wish I did just that.

You only consider my posts argumentative because you do not agree with them and you are unable to refute them. I see me and a few others trying to address the op's @martinman 's post, and a whole bunch of you making personal attacks on those that do if it does not agree with the answer you think it right. May I kindly request that you keep to the topic, agree or refute what is in the content of people's posts, and stop trying to denigrate the people who disagree with you (and all the others doing exactly the same). Is that too much to ask for on a forum populated by adults?

75 posts, all argumentative, since ’joining’ as a ’new member’ on nov 30 2021

i know that mods are quite busy, but hope they find time to take out the trash

Guys … As per my post above *** Simply Ignore ***

@cindyment  Manic, bi-polar?

Nice to see a poster, new or not, who doesn't buy into the nonsense.

Perhaps if you knew how to be less of a reactive and gasoline throwing pedantic ass, your presence might be more tolerated.

@teo_audio ,

I will just point out again, that your ongoing attempts at attempting to discredit me personally do nothing to validate the relevance or accuracy of what you have posted. I would encourage you to stick to the topic and address what I have wrote. If you feel the need to discredit me to advance your posts, that does not indicate to me that you can support what you posted with arguments. I could be wrong, but so far, you are proving me correct.

Then we get down into the nuts and bolts of how to implement the chip and methodologies, etc -that are in question. And that is the part that separates the knowledgeable/lore from the book learned.

Other than responding to your posts which are of a personal nature and not related to the topic, my posts have been on the nuts and bolts of chips, and DACs. Not hand waving and marketing speak but addressing real technical realities. If you would like to try to poke holes in my knowledge on DACs, feel free. If your attempts are flawed, I will point them out. I would love a discussion about the nuts and bolts of chips and DACs. Have at it. I thought that was what this thread was about? I have clearly, and concisely addressed exactly what the OPs post was about, and presented counter arguments based on real knowledge and experience, not "lore", in the hopes the OP will not be mislead. That is my goal. Can you please communicate to me what your goal is so that I can better respond?

I expect your response will illustrate my post. You could prove me wrong though.

 

@lordmelton , that was quite a feat to include so much "wrong" in a single post.

Here we go: A $99.00 DAC is a turd and you can’t put lipstick on it you probably have a better DAC in your laptop or car.

The $99 DAC has one of the best DAC chips made, the ESS9038, and yes that matters, because the chip does almost all the heavy lifting. My computer and my car most definitely do not have one of the same quality.

What makes a good DAC? Firstly it needs as good a signal as possible, so just sticking a computer USB into it isn’t going to cut the mustard.

Define a "good signal"? It is USB, and it really is "bits". The transfer is virtually every new DAC is async, i.e. the data transfer is completely independent from the audio output. That would be wrong #2.

If you’re using a computer you need JPLAY or similar to reduce computer jitter and provide drivers for the DAC.

Async transfer. "Jitter"on USB is meaningless and I don’t need JPLAY, I just need to ensure I have my setting correct. There are many good guides on the web for doing this. Wrong #3.

A big clean linear power supply is more important than what OP amps you use.

Perhaps you have not noticed the most recent Class-D amps, and linear amps using switch mode supplies and having performance better than just about anything with a linear supply? You don’t need a linear supply for good performance, you just need to know what you are doing. "BIG"? It is a DAC. They have fairly small power requirements. More important is ground loops and in most cases not relying on computer power, but not always either. A USB isolator is far more important than a linear supply. That would be wrong #4 and wrong #5.

The icing on the cake is a Word or Master clock so you can either slave your system to the Master or output separate Word signals.

Async USB, again. There is no "slaving" of anything. Except for the most cheap DAC implementations in your phone / laptop, external DACs will run a separate oscillator for the DAC, even that $99 one. Wrong #6.

Some good cables both digital and analogue will help enormously.

How will they help? Not hand waving. Very specific, how will they help. How will spending big sums of money, as opposed to say $10 or $20 for shielded cables make any difference? Again, not hand waving. That would be wrong #7

 

I do find irony in your accusing me of reading of Wikipedia but you don’t seem to have much understanding of how a DAC works.

I’m not liking the new poster and their forum flooding...their inability to show their name and face, and how they operate under false name after false name, etc.......but I do tend to agree with most of this.

At least as far as the surface ’take’ on it might be. But not with the superiority complex that comes down on from high, in a ’kindly dismissing of a child’ kinda way. A psychological victim of their own shooting from the bushes constantly, where they have lost their moral and ethical compass when it comes to relating with others on forums. The true self has been exposed, kinda thing.

~~~~~

Then we get down into the nuts and bolts of how to implement the chip and methodologies, etc -that are in question. And that is the part that separates the knowledgeable/lore from the book learned.

Which is the part that is not shared on forums, generally, as that is the money maker part for the given audio electronics production and sales enterprise.

When those aspects are well known and copied by everyone. This, if they understand it or not - monkey see, monkey do, china builds come to mind--but certainly not exclusive to china. When it is popularized in the DIY to professional world (best practices in dealing with audio electronics implementation for audiophile concerns) ---then it can be discussed more openly on forums.

The fundamental disagreements and arguments will always exist, though. As long as people are individuals and have different minds and physiological aspects from one another, this 'argument'  and all of it's giant sweeping tail of complexities in life ---will remain.

@cindyment  Yes you must be right because the Aries Cerat Kassandra II DAC weighs 120kgs and Lamm hasn't changed the design of their solid state 1.2 class A monoblocks for around 20 years.

These guys must be total clowns to build such garbage : )

Except there's plenty of people parting with $40k USD to buy each one.

Addressing the OP. I doubt you would find anything "better" than the SMSL  if it has the features you want and you're looking for a DAC that's not going to add coloration. If you're thinking warranty purposes and the hassle of shipping overseas there are US companies like Benchmark,  Bel Canto, Schiit etc. Don't get sucked into the rabbit hole of more expensive = better in DACs no matter what anyone tells you, even me. Find out for yourself, while not perfect try to compare them blind and level matched if possible or at least level matched. 

@tsushima1,

Do you have a fiscal interest in the products discussed in this thread. I assume you do as you are just attacking me, but have not brought any value to the thread, and not refuted anything I have wrote.

Why do you feel the need to censor your fellow posters, and I don't mean me. They are adults. They can make their own choices about what they respond to.

I’m kind of surprised a lot of people like Denafrips Pontus 2

i own one for about 3 months and never engage me sounds okay not better than  my Cambridge Azur 851N or cocktail Audio X45

i sold it and move on possible is system synergy and later on I find some Facebook groups also not liking it

+1 @tsushima1 

Please let's end the thread here.

Guys …. Guys …. You are wasting your time and energy engaging with this persona , I suspect this is merely another example of a certain members sock puppetry.

Same egotistical methodology, same use of three paragraphs , same abrasive manner ( altho turned up a notch due to the anonymity)  claims of expertise in the field of XRay and other medical sciences e.g. Neuroscience etc .etc .

One might consider that since his suspension and release, orchestrated by another barely believable persona, and being aware that he will be under scrutiny from the Admin and Moderation team,  the requirement for anther account as an outlet for his ‘True’  personality must be compelling.

*** Simply Ignore ***

@curiousjim 

I am using a Lumin U1 mini streaming Qobuz and local files from a  Synology NAS.