Why make a major purchase (Fluance tt) ahead of asking for help? |
My experience with other equipment is people generally recommend what they own or what is expensive so not that helpful. The Project or Rega tables were the other obvious choices but were a bit more expensive and I wanted the Ortofon 2M Blue cartridge. And if I hate it I can simply return it easily. I suspect the Fluance, despite its great reviews and features, doesn't have the audiophile credibility that would get it much love on here. |
Man, where to start without sounding patronizing or condescending? You will quickly have more money tied up in records than equipment if you get the bug, and a lot of desirable records are not new and you can’t buy them on Amazon, but have to hunt for them. Copies turn up on the Internet via places like E-Bay and Discogs, but you do have to know a little.
I guess I’d start with what kind of music you like and what you want to explore.
Amazon is great for new issues of things, but in many cases, not all, new records aren’t fully analog-- the source material was digitized and the record is cut from a digital master. Not that there is anything wrong with that if that was how the record was originally made, e.g. a newer release, but for older treasures, you will probably find more joy in earlier issues that didn’t have digitization as part of the process. (Nothing against digital, but folks looking for the analog experience won’t get the full measure with a reissue taken from a digital master, though in some cases, that may be the only way a particular record is affordable or even findable today).
Cleaning-- there are best practices observed in manual cleaning; I find that a machine helps in removing the fluid and water rinse steps; I also use ultrasonic. Much has been written about this subject- in my estimation, it is less about equipment and more about method. There is no "magic bullet"---
The tough part about acquiring records is condition. A record can look ok but suffer from groove chew due to play on kludgey, improperly aligned equipment or can have surface scuffs, hairlines and assorted uglies but sound fine. We hit bottom in the U.S. during the oil crisis; the fancy made for audiophile records will not only set you back costwise, but are typically limited to tried and true best-selling stuff that gets reissued repeatedly. Sometimes, a reissue can actually improve on the sound of a mass market record that was made during the heyday of vinyl but in many cases, you are paying for a brand name mastering engineer, a "special" vinyl compound and fancy packaging.
At my peak, I had about 17,000 LPs. I’ve skinnyed that down to around just under 6k records, taking into account those I’ve bought in the last few years.
There are various pockets of knowledge- the classical guys might not know jazz, and those guys might not know rock in its myriad forms. There are various blogs for different genres. The London Jazz Collector is considered a top tier blog for Blue Notes, Strata East and other blue chip jazz records. I even write a blog, but am all over the place, musically, and my taste may not be yours. So, I’d start with what kind of music you like, what you want to acquire and if you are lucky enough to live in an area that has a good retail trade in brick and mortar stores, with used bins, you read, research, take a few chances, get tips from others and get immersed. I get turned on to a lot of records from other people. Ten years ago I wasn’t listening to much jazz. Now, that’s pretty much 80% of my listening-- and that can change. (To me, jazz was a real learning experience because though I knew some of the big names and some of famous albums, I really didn’t know much beyond that. Spending time listening, finding artists you like and tracking their progress on other releases can lead you to some jewels).
Good luck and welcome to the fold,
Bill Hart |
Cleaning:
Spin Clean & cleaning fluid. Use once for dirty albums
Record brush Use before each play
ZeroStat for static as needed
Stylus brush
Good Rules To Follow
Use the cuing device when lowering stylus on the record
Use the cuing device when lifting stylus off the record
NEVER touch the record grooves
Get a GOOD Phono preamp
Clean records should have no pops & clicks
Always return the record to its inner sleeve & cover after play.
Store Records upright, not laid flat
Keep records away from heat.
Vinyl play is NOT Convenient. But it IS rewarding.
Vinyl is for listening, not chores, reading, playing cards, etc. Digital is for those activities.
Learn the Goldmine standard of record grading. It will serve you well when you go shopping for used records. Don't play anything less than VG+. Anything below that will have surface noise, pops, clicks and maybe skips. Plus it is not good on your stylus.
ENJOY The Journey.
Use these as rules and you will have a good sound and a good time. If these are too cumbersome, go back to digital cause you will not enjoy vinyl. Good luck
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For cleaning, the best by far is the Walker Enzyme 4 step method. The full kit is expensive but you can buy the refills cheap and then use your own brush, the MoFi brushes are excellent.
Once records are cleaned then unless your home is especially dirty and dusty you won't touch them for a long time, but just use ZeroStat and blow off the occasional speck of dust.
You are close enough you are welcome to come over some time I could line it up to clean some records so you see first hand what I'm talking about. Surprised you got records last I heard you had no interest. Guess you heard what you heard here and that was enough to get you hooked? ;)
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The real question is what you ultimately find appealing about vinyl. It is, in general, still the the most cost effective sound quality at a given price... $1,000, $5,000, $25,000, or $100,000 per end. So that could be a reason. Sounds like you have a lot more invested in your digital end. So, it could be for the enjoyment of collecting. I have 2,000 albums collected over 55 years. I have a spectacular system, both analog and digital. I listen to vinyl about 10 or 15% of the time. I buy audiophile pressings usually, from Music Direct, sometimes Amazon. I love jazz, blues, rock, so sometimes dropping buy a used record store is really fun, picking up used albums for $5, $10,or $15. Something finding albums for $1 can be a blast. Late 50’s recordings are the best ever made. Every time I spin one I am shocked, delighted, and disappointed that recording quality went down for so many decades.
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The foundation piece of equipment for a record collection should be a record cleaning machine. There are many good ones. Otherwise it is really going to be a struggle. I use a VPI full sized vacuum record cleaner. I first clean with Last Power cleaner, then VPI solution dispensed in the cleaner, vacuum it off, then treat with Last preservative. I have many pristine recordings I bought for a dollar. Examine carefully before buying and clean when home. After the initial cleaning (new albums also), I only do a quick wipe with Last All purpose cleaner if I see some dust or hair on it. Otherwise nothing for many... many plays.
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If you double the cost of your turntable you will go “wow”... if you double the cost of your cartridge you will go “wow”. If you double the cost of your Phonostage you will get a “wow”, when $1,000, 2,000, 4,000, 8,000, 16,000... well you get the point.
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Sound or collecting, or maybe you like fiddling and tweaking equipment (TT, arm, cartridge)? |
Ultrasonic cleaning before first play.
Or buy my Nitty Gritty vacuum to get 50% effectiveness, even with "power cleaner" and stupid scrubbing.
Amazon prices are everchanging. Supply and demand.
Discogs is the ONLY place you should buy records. OR pay up for hot stampers, curated great platters. Too bad they cost as much as your TT.
Going through thrift racks is like walking the beach with a metal detector. Pretty much a waste of time but you could win the lottery.
RIGHT!
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whart - Thanks for all that advice. I'll browse through the London Jazz Collector site. My musical tastes are quite varied and evolving. I ignored jazz for most of my life but I'm finding myself enjoying some of the more contemporary experimental jazz as well as classics like Miles Davis or Coltrane but it still the case that I dislike more jazz than I like it.
Perhaps I am wrong, but I think well recorded/produced contemporary music sounds awfully good in digital streaming. On the other hand, a lot of the older stuff from the 1960's-1990's sounds like crap streaming and one of the things that is driving me to try vinyl is to see if the records are better than the digital versions.
What is your blog? |
artemus - Thanks. Is that the Milty Zerostat 3 that you are recommending? Lots of negative reviews for that on Amazon. |
millercarbon - Hi Chuck. Thanks for the recommendation for the Mobile Fidelity brush. I had been overwhelmed by all the brush choices so I simply went ahead and bought one based on your recommendation. I would say that I am more curious about records than anything else. Thanks for the invitation. |
IF I had to pick a guru helper, it would be Bill ( whart ).... not prone to silly absolutes...
For bang for buck, the new reissue Blue Notes are fantastic.....
I do agree with Steve, you should have asked for help on the table.
enjoy your journey |
pinwa- one of the things that is driving me to try vinyl is to see if the records are better than the digital versions.
That's from just above. This is you, pinwa, after hearing my system last September:
the midrange/vocal presence is huge. Listening to them at your
place I thought it might be too much but coming back home and listening
to my 1.7's and one subwoofer I found myself missing that big full round
sound your system has.
I wonder how much of that is
the Melody amp and how much the various tweaks you made. And I think
that sound is also characteristic of vinyl and I have no intention of
adding a turntable no matter how good it sounds. While I was there I
found myself wanting a dryer more clinical presentation but listening to
my system just now there seems to be so much missing that was present
in your system. I can tell you right now the Melody amp is at most maybe 10% of what you heard. If that. A drier more clinical presentation is what you will get with digital. SS as well, but some of that can be pretty good. Mostly the problem is digital. I've really been struggling to
figure out how to characterize my experience and I think it is a little
bit like the first time you taste a new flavor of food or wine. I don't
even know how to evaluate its "goodness" because my palette, or in this
case ear, is so uneducated. Your system is so radically different from
anything I've heard before, even the other set of Moabs I heard, that I
feel like I need to educate myself more about what I might have been
hearing. That's a good analogy. Your palate is accustomed to processed restaurant food. My system is home cooking. The number and variety of spices are far greater, the flavors more varied and complex, and while some of them may be a little overpowering at times keep in mind it may not be so much an acquired taste kind of thing as this is just my style of cooking. The beauty with vinyl is you are not stuck with take out digital, you can learn to cook yourself. You can, to a much greater extent than is possible with digital, be your own chef. After my Moabs come, and I've had a
chance to fine tune them in my system, I would be really interested to
come back and give your system another listen if that is something you
would be open to. Always. You've got your Moabs, they are fine tuned. You have even done what you said you had no intention of doing, added a turntable. Not trying to make you look bad or anything but what you said was, "no matter how good it sounds." This is what we call a Freudian Slip. You know it sounds good. You just need a little more guidance and encouragement. Any time. |
millercarbon - First, I want to be clear, I said your system was extraordinary, which I think it is, but I never said I liked it. I certainly don't aspire to replicate the sound that you have worked so hard to achieve.
I have no idea what leads you to constantly argue that you have the best system and only path to great sound, but I am confident that I am not the only person on Audiogon that finds it annoying. But I do want to thank you for your generosity in letting me hear your system.
I am curious about vinyl. That same curiosity has led me to purchase 10 speakers and nine amplifiers over the past 9 months. I wouldn't read anything more into it. My guess is vinyl will be better for older albums because so many older CDs and digital sources seem to be flat and compressed and hopefully the comparable records aren't. I think you mostly listen to older material which does more to explain your love of vinyl than any inherent deficit in digitally encoded music. But I am approaching my foray into vinyl with an open mind and the same curiosity that has driven my audiophile journey so far.
And please don't turn this into one of your flame wars. Have the last word if you must, but I won't be responding to any rants. |
I thank @whart for his writing
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@pinwa How has it worked out since your last post? |
@noromance Good question. Mostly it hasn't. As I suspected, I find the whole process of playing vinyl to be less than satisfying. I know a lot of people find the ritual of taking an album out of the case, cleaning it, and lowering the needle and then sitting back for 20 minutes devoting your full attention to the music to be rewarding but mostly I think all of that is frustrating. But my guess is that isn't really what you were asking. And all of my points below should be taken in the context of the fact that I still have very limited experience playing records since it isn't something I do often.
A different sound quality is the reason I wanted to try vinyl and my experience with that is hit or miss. Listening carefully is a challenge because level matching is difficult even with a SPL meter but I do my best.
Modern records often sound nearly identical to digital sources. The records that sound significantly different are bolder, more dynamic and brasher. Going back and forth between streaming and vinyl often leaves me scratching my head about which I prefer and wondering which is truer to the artists intention. Streaming seems to recess the instruments a bit and bring the vocals forward but maybe it is just more compressed. Vinyl sometimes almost seems like an exaggerated presentation . And since I have a very basic vinyl setup I wonder how much of that coarseness, for lack of a better word, is just the turntable and phono amp.
Older records often shine because the streaming source seems so flat and uninteresting. My guess is this is what drives most of the enthusiasts for vinyl, and it is hard to argue that records don't sound better for older material where streaming sounds bad. On the other hand, the second hand older albums I have are plagued with snaps, crackles and pops that I find very distracting. I've tried different types of cleaning without finding something that "fixes" them. Mostly I play very current music so streaming is fine for that.
And on the topic of noise, well even brand new vinyl sounds noisy to me. I just bought Ada Lea's "one hand on the steering wheel the other sewing a garden" and there is a low level of hiss on the quiet passages and the occasional pop. I find that distracting/disturbing. And this is an album where there is a big difference between streaming and vinyl but I simply couldn't decide which I liked better.
And since I use Roon, I really like its ability to play the lyrics on my tv while the song is playing. When I play a record I often set the album going in Roon just to be able to see the lyrics. Of course, skipping over a track I don't like simply isn't an option with vinyl.
Bottom line is I don't think I'll be a convert to vinyl anytime soon but I will enjoy playing a record from time to time but I don't like it enough to pay the often ridiculous prices for old, much less new, albums.
My latest experiment is with playing SACDs. So far no conclusions about that at all other than an enormous sense of frustration at how expensive and difficult to source most SACDs are. Since so little material is available as an SACD that will never be a big part of my listening even if I decide I love it.
Forgive my rambling answer to your short question LOL.
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actually OP your response is astute and discerning. I have LP, ripped files to a server, high rez downloads, streaming ( you might like Hi Rez files on Qobuz ), 3 or 4 turntable ( i lost count ) and high speed half track tape. All formats have sonic virtue and relative weakness. Cast a wide net on opinions. Build your own expertise, sounds like you have been on a grand journey so far.
best to you!
also, listen to @whart he is consummate statesman ! |
Paul, if you want to find out your turntable’s potential I suggest buying a couple reissue LP’s from Music Direct, Elusive Disc or Acoustic Sounds. Look for quality audiophile labels like Mobile Fidelity or Analogue Productions and details like Mastered From Original Master Tapes & Pressed at RTI. You should be able to find something to please your musical taste. They’ll cost you $35-$50 but will be virtually free of surface noise or warps. A couple swipes with a record brush is all that’s needed. If there’s an issue, these vendors have great customer service. |
Label protector, lukewarm water, painters corner paint rectangle pad,
I Roy soap, or a very small bit of Dawn dish soap.
When rinsing, slowly turn water on, so only water comes out in a non aerated stream. If aerated, the water won’t get in to rinse the grooves.
I hooked up my shop vac attachment with felt pads from a hardware store, slowly go round, sucking up everything.
Works a dandy for me.
Spend the cash if you want, on a cleaning machine.
Patience, level TT, anti skate, weight of headshell on LP,
trial and error.
have fun, enjoy the tunes. |
Years ago, I would hit the used record shop 3-4 X a week, ash time walking out with at least 8-10 records.
Their prices have massively increased to the point they are overpricing sales, the price of an Allmand Bros 2 LP loose gatefold was 29.00$ used, with the jacket in not too good condition, found same lp on discogs (I love there most weekends) for 8$ ok,ok, 11$ with shipping. Better than their over priced stuff.
I’m all for supporting local shops, but some of those prices were just outrageously overpriced…
zeppelin, who, Beatles, were all over 15-20$ for rough looking records and jackets.
Thanks for the ear to rant |
Did you mean Ivory soap? I find it hard to imagine that is good for records but I have never tried it. I have tried scrubbing records with those paint pads making sure to follow the grooves but records were still noisy. |
Apart from ensuring the record is clean, the only other way to reduce vinyl noise is to improve the mechanics of the reproduction system. A good turntable will decrease the noise floor and increase the dynamics to the point where the music is far louder than the vinyl noise. So much so, that it becomes barely an inconvenience. Lower end tables can't do that and can be frustrating. |
