New system has fatiguing, harsh high frequency sounds. How to fix?

This has been very educational. Based on the advice received here (and my experiments so far), this room is too small for both home theater (with the large screen) and optimal music listening. Covering the screens while listening to music will prevent me from picking songs, etc.

So I am going to try moving my music listening location to another room.

I made a new post on that topic here:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/amp-or-receiver-recommendation-for-polk-audio-rti-a7-floorsta...

For this small room, with the feedback I received here, I was able to achieve a great movie sound experience with the existing Sony receiver. This room can work well for home theater. Here are the speakers I'll use:

• Front: Polk Audio RTI A3
• Center Speaker: Polk Audio CSI A6 Center Channel Speaker
• Subwoofer 1: Polk Audio PSW125 Subwoofer
• Subwoofer 2: Klipsch R-112SW Subwoofer (optional)
  
• Rear/Surround: Polk Audio 35B bookshelf speakers (5 yr old never used, purchased on Craigslist)
  

I feel like I have probably solved the home theater part of this, thanks to the advice given here, without spending any money.

I'm going to put my budget toward the music system that will go in another room. See thread linked above if you care of offer any suggestions.

Thanks for the great feedback here. I will keep experimenting with all this, so please continue to comment here if you wish and I'll keep reading and trying things.

I agree with Shadorne. Inexpensive receivers have compromised power supplies and current delivery as also stated. It would be my first likely culprit but there may be other issues as well with room and reflection problems that might be mitigated/improved with room treatments. 

I don't believe break in is a real thing, beyond maybe the first few hours for the speakers. There are just too many myths in audiophile land.

I am not so sure it is the Sony, but to be sure you have to diagnose properly, excluding one possibility at a time. Going through the chain from the beginning:
1 it could be the actual music. Listen to a live symphony orchestra, and at times that can sound pretty harsh. Use classical music as a source to judge this. Solution if there still is a problem and if this is the cause: face up to reality.
2 it could be the mastering. These days many pop recordings are mastered at very high levels, with clipping distortion as a result. This is intended, even of not necessarily by the original artists in case of a modern remaster. In that case the cure would be to get hold of anolder mastering. With classical music this is rarely a problem.
3 it could be a mismatch between signal levels of the analogue source and the analogue input, potentially generating clipping distortion. Many amplifiers cannot quite handle the high 2.0 volt (or more) signal levels of e.g. a cd player. This could also happen with digital sources, but less likely. Cure: an inline attenuator in the case of an analogue source, or a reduction in the digital domain (if possible). Question: do you suffer this harsh sound with all sources (including FM radio, or only with some?
4 Jitter from the inbuilt DAC of the Sony (if you are using the digital input). I doubt it will be as serious as your problem seems to be. Cure: a different receiver.
5 insuffient power, leading to clipping of the power amplifier. Hard to imagine in such a small room.
6 harsh speakers. I don’t know these speakers, but changing them around with some other speakers will identify if they are the culprits. Cure 1: get other speakers. Cure 2: use your amplifier’s tone controls.
7 a harsh sounding room. If your room has too many hard and reflective surfaces, use damping materials like rugs etc to dampen those reflections. If that is not enough, use the tone controls. Compare the sound when using the same gear in a different room.

Beyond this, have a close look at the settings of the receiver. This is a fancy piece with more options than you can imagine in your wildest dreams. And therefore more possibilities to get it wrong. Make sure you know what you are doing.

Reading about your own experiments, it looks as if the combination of speakers and the room is the real culprit.

You do not mention it, but in a small and square room such as this, the subwoofers are also likely to generate a lot of nasty room modes at the lower end. Just two small high quality mini monitors may well give a much better sound (or move all this gear to a bigger room in the house). This room really is too small. If you insist, use the room eq in the receiver, if you have not already done so. But in such a small room, room modes will be at pretty high frequencies (up to the room’s Schroeder frequency of 245 Hz or so for the fundamentals, and much higher for the harmonics), and equalization will only work over a pretty small listening position. Do not think using just one sub wil work: it will only make matters worse because multiple subs even out the response.

If you want to measure what you are hearing, get a UMIK-1 calibrated microphone and measure with the free REW software (unless the Sony allows you to do about the same).

you may have a system synergy issue (bright amp + bright speakers) especially since each are new and not close to being burned in / broken in.  each should start sounding smoother over time- could take a year or so (seriously).  
however- your setup is not doing them any favors.  look up the term "baffle step compensation".  basically it is an adjustment of the speaker's crossover to reduce frequencies (midrange and treble) that are reflected forward by the front baffle of the enclosure.  
by having the monitor screens and another set of speakers in the same plane as your main speakers, you have effectively increased the surface area of the baffle and you are hearing lots of high midrange / low treble energy reflecting back to the listening position.  not good!  the speakers need air around them in all directions- two feet or so if possible..  get rid of the unused set, pull the speakers as far forward as possible from the screens, push the screens as far back as possible and then put thick quilts or blankets over the screens when listening to music. 
once you have done that any issues that remain are likely system synergy and break-in related.  

Return the Sony. You likely have a jitter or distortion problem (driving a tough load). Try Onkyo.

If the speakers are not on carpet, get 2 small rugs and position them right in front of the speaker to soften the 1st arrival time. (johnnyR from AudioConnection in NJ told me about this and it works)

The second Flat screen is causing an unwanted reflection
 Try removing that one to the left first.
Next push the other flat screen tv as close to the wall behind it.
 Next, pull the front speakers at least 5 inches in front of the Big screen.
  Let it run for many hours 175 at least.
 Make sure you SPL all speakers again.
Best JohnnyR 

I have to group all my replies into one message because the forum is limiting my ability to post multiple replies. (I'm new here.) Sorry for such a long reply.

lowrider57: RE: "Why two sets of front speakers?" I ordered speakers for a 7.1 setup and that was my original setup. But for music, I use 2-channel stereo mostly. The Sony receiver supports this 5.1 setup with two pairs of front speakers. The 2nd pair is connected to surround terminals, but the receiver remaps them to fronts. When I tried it, I liked it better than the 7.1 setup. It sounds very good in 2-channel stereo for music (and I can select either pair of front speakers or both pairs, but the fronts are the only speakers playing); and the 5.1 layout is still good for movies. To my ears I lost nothing from the 7.1 layout but gained something for listening to music in 2-channel stereo. The two sets of front speakers was (and is) just part of experimenting.

mattmiller: RE: Cambridge CXR 120
I can live without the Bluetooth and other features the CXR lacks. I generally like the trade-off of excess features for better components and better sound. But this is a show-stopper for me:
'HDMI 2.0 is supported, not 2.0a, so you’ll have to do without being able to pass HDR video to a 4K display.' I will definitely consider the Marantz NR1608 or any other receiver up to the price of the Cambridge CXR 120 (or maybe a bit more) as long as it also has the features I use. I do not use any streaming features, for example.

However, I also have the idea of getting separate components -- see below.

erik_squires: RE: "Big puffy things around and behind the speakers are a great help, even on the floor. Try covering the TV. Also, try listening off axis." Pillows seemed to help. Angling all the speakers out a bit also helped a great deal.

After the pillows and changing angles of the speakers and using the equalizer built into the Sony, I watched the movie Baby Driver and the sound was absolutely wonderful!! I used all the speakers (with both sets of fronts) in the 5.1 layout with DTS Neo:X surround format.

I also listened to some challenging music selections and the treble is better. It is far from perfect on my most challenging musical selections. However, these small changes helped on other music.

mtrot: RE: "high end audio people will strongly advise against placing two sets of speakers right next to each other like that." I'm sure that this layout isn't ideal, but I did testing with only one pair of front speakers and the issue was unchanged. The receiver gives me the option to turn off either pair of front speakers at the push of a button, so I have tried either pair multiple times. The two pair of front speakers might not be ideal, but it alone is not the cause of this issue.

wolf_garcia: RE: "I imagine things get "shouty" in there due to proximity…it's a near-field thing where I bet a small monitor speaker matched appropriately with the sub would sound better, although not took as cool." I just did a test where I disconnected both the A7's and A5's and used only a pair of A3 bookshelf speakers as front speakers. Even without a sub, they are indeed plenty for music. Together with the center, surround and subwoofer, they are also fine for movies. That just proves that my two pair of large floorstanding front speakers are total overkill in this room.

However, even with just theses small speakers playing music, the issue is not totally gone on my challenging selections. Maybe it is the Sony receiver or the room?

Here's a photo of this test. The ONLY active speakers are the small Polk Audio RTI A3's (which I sat on top of the A7's for the test).

https://imgur.com/EEkVyZK

lowrider57: RE: "Listening position is too close to large speakers." Yes, the room is too small for all this equipment. So I'm considering options (see below).

lowrider57: RE: "Too much glass causing reflections in that small room." Agreed.

lowrider57: RE: "Cover the flat screens for now, the goal is to hear if you have good synergy with your basic components." I had experimented with covering the screens previously and that alone did not solve the issue. However, I'll try it again in combination with my other changes mentioned above.

A more radical solution would be to split the music listening and the movie watching into different rooms, each with their own equipment. This room (and this equipment) are fine for movies, but even the much smaller speakers continue to be harsh for high frequencies. (The problem is very apparent on sitar music at higher volume. The sitar is a twangy instrument with it's metal strings, but in live concert the sound is not annoying or harsh at all, and that's what I want to replicate.)

I could keep the home theater in the smaller room with the smaller speakers. For music, I have access to a large room (about 25 feet x 25 feet with a high ceiling) that I could use for music listening. But it has lots of big windows -- the front wall is almost all glass. And there is some equipment in there that always has fans running. I have a second choice, a room that is around 20 x 25 feet, but has tile flooring and I can't put carpet in it. I would also have to do a lot of rearranging. I'm not sure if either is an ideal room for music, but they are larger. Would a room that large be too large for the speakers I currently have? (See original post for list of all speakers.)

For home theater (movies), I think the Sony receiver is good enough. In fact, as I said above, after the minor changes I made, the sound while watching Baby Driver was near perfect with this setup. And I believe that would hold true even if I drop down to the Polk Audio RTI A3's as the front speakers and use an older pair of Polk 35B bookshelf speakers as rears (and also just one subwoofer).

Then I could take the A5's and A7's and the Klipsch R-112SW Subwoofer to another room and pair those up with a nice pre-amp and power amp for music listening. Any thoughts on that?

All suggestions welcome.

I’ve found that the stuff the tweeter is made of is less important than how it’s implemented by the designer…soft domes can sound harsh, metal domes smooth, etc.

Totally agree with Wolf. Your Polk floorstanders have soft dome tweeters but may not have good synergy with the receiver.

You have several issues to address:
No need to have 2 pairs of front speakers.
Listening position is too close to large speakers.
Too much glass causing reflections in that small room.

I would start by using only one pair of front speakers, turn off subwoofers and dial in a good 2 channel image. Cover the flat screens for now, the goal is to hear if you have good synergy with your basic components.
You can’t hear the true sonics with all those speakers and reflective surfaces. Also, in a square room sound waves will bounce around causing harshness to mids and highs.

I've found that the stuff the tweeter is made of is less important than how it's implemented by the designer…soft domes can sound harsh, metal domes smooth, etc. Also in the supplied pic you're very close to the speakers (and everything else{ so I imagine things get "shouty" in there due to proximity…it's a near-field thing where I bet a small monitor speaker matched appropriately with the sub would sound better, although not took as cool.

Well, although I’m not generally a fan of Sony receivers, my guess is that a harshness as significant as you describe is not likely to be because of the Sony. That said, I have generally liked the sound of my Onkyo and Denon receivers. These new receivers at the price of the Sony 1080 generally only weigh about 20 pounds, and I just don’t see how they can manufacture them to have great audio at that price. They tend to have very light power supplies and current output.

Since you can return the Sony, it won’t hurt any thing to send it back and move up to a higher level receiver, along the lines of a Denon 4300 or the new Onkyo TX-RZ920. You could experiment with that before spending money elsewhere. If a higher quality receiver fails to improve the harshness problem, then I would next evaluate your speaker situation and, as mentioned above, room reflections(you have a lot of square inches of very reflective TV screen in that room).

I’m also not a big fan of most metal dome tweeters, and it appears that you have a lot of them in the system. Considering your high frequency goals of " smooth, sweet, soft, silky and gentle", you might be better served by speakers with soft dome or ribbon tweeters. Changing speakers will make more difference to your sound than anything else.

P.S., high end audio people will strongly advise against placing two sets of speakers right next to each other like that, on the contention that they will interfere with each other’s performance due to reflection and possibly absorption of sound, affecting the sound stage and imaging of the sound.

Matt is right, to at least experiment. Big puffy things around and behind the speakers are a great help, even on the floor. Try covering the TV. Also, try listening off axis. Some speakers are designed to be listened to with less toe-in.

Also, for professional, great looking and sounding help, go to GIK Acoustics.

Throw some pillows around the room and save your $$$. I think you should check out the Marantz NR1608 receiver 7-channels $749.

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/marantz-nr1608

Or  If you could reach a little more the $1100 Cambridge Audio CXR120 :-)

www.cambridgeaudio.com/usa/en/products/cx/cxr120

Either of these should make for easy listening! Excellent sounding!


Matt M

Actually it looks like a you have some good damping in the room.
Why are there 2 sets of front speakers?

lowrider57: for room treatments, how does one get started? Should I call in a professional? My budget is around $1000. Can I afford a professional on that budget? If I do room treatments myself, what is the first step? Thanks.

mattmiller: yes, it is a brand new system. I can still return the Sony receiver. I bought it because many reviews rated it highly. But I'm happy to try something else. What would you recommend? The Sony STRDN1080 cost about $450. I could go up to $1000, maybe a bit higher if it will solve this issue.

Agree that you need some burn-in time. But you do need room treatments; absorbtion and/or diffusion.

Here is a picture of my system:
https://imgur.com/a/o6QzA

If its a new system I would expect for it to open up and sound better after break in period. I would give it at least 100 hours before listening closely. Otherwise ...I would point to that Sony receiver, not a big fan. A lot of Sony receivers I have listened to sound harsh and this gets worse at higher volumes.

Matt M