New system has fatiguing, harsh high frequency sounds. How to fix?

Here is a picture of my system:
https://imgur.com/a/o6QzA

mattmiller: yes, it is a brand new system. I can still return the Sony receiver. I bought it because many reviews rated it highly. But I'm happy to try something else. What would you recommend? The Sony STRDN1080 cost about $450. I could go up to $1000, maybe a bit higher if it will solve this issue.

lowrider57: for room treatments, how does one get started? Should I call in a professional? My budget is around $1000. Can I afford a professional on that budget? If I do room treatments myself, what is the first step? Thanks.

I have to group all my replies into one message because the forum is limiting my ability to post multiple replies. (I'm new here.) Sorry for such a long reply.

lowrider57: RE: "Why two sets of front speakers?" I ordered speakers for a 7.1 setup and that was my original setup. But for music, I use 2-channel stereo mostly. The Sony receiver supports this 5.1 setup with two pairs of front speakers. The 2nd pair is connected to surround terminals, but the receiver remaps them to fronts. When I tried it, I liked it better than the 7.1 setup. It sounds very good in 2-channel stereo for music (and I can select either pair of front speakers or both pairs, but the fronts are the only speakers playing); and the 5.1 layout is still good for movies. To my ears I lost nothing from the 7.1 layout but gained something for listening to music in 2-channel stereo. The two sets of front speakers was (and is) just part of experimenting.

mattmiller: RE: Cambridge CXR 120
I can live without the Bluetooth and other features the CXR lacks. I generally like the trade-off of excess features for better components and better sound. But this is a show-stopper for me:
'HDMI 2.0 is supported, not 2.0a, so you’ll have to do without being able to pass HDR video to a 4K display.' I will definitely consider the Marantz NR1608 or any other receiver up to the price of the Cambridge CXR 120 (or maybe a bit more) as long as it also has the features I use. I do not use any streaming features, for example.

However, I also have the idea of getting separate components -- see below.

erik_squires: RE: "Big puffy things around and behind the speakers are a great help, even on the floor. Try covering the TV. Also, try listening off axis." Pillows seemed to help. Angling all the speakers out a bit also helped a great deal.

After the pillows and changing angles of the speakers and using the equalizer built into the Sony, I watched the movie Baby Driver and the sound was absolutely wonderful!! I used all the speakers (with both sets of fronts) in the 5.1 layout with DTS Neo:X surround format.

I also listened to some challenging music selections and the treble is better. It is far from perfect on my most challenging musical selections. However, these small changes helped on other music.

mtrot: RE: "high end audio people will strongly advise against placing two sets of speakers right next to each other like that." I'm sure that this layout isn't ideal, but I did testing with only one pair of front speakers and the issue was unchanged. The receiver gives me the option to turn off either pair of front speakers at the push of a button, so I have tried either pair multiple times. The two pair of front speakers might not be ideal, but it alone is not the cause of this issue.

wolf_garcia: RE: "I imagine things get "shouty" in there due to proximity…it's a near-field thing where I bet a small monitor speaker matched appropriately with the sub would sound better, although not took as cool." I just did a test where I disconnected both the A7's and A5's and used only a pair of A3 bookshelf speakers as front speakers. Even without a sub, they are indeed plenty for music. Together with the center, surround and subwoofer, they are also fine for movies. That just proves that my two pair of large floorstanding front speakers are total overkill in this room.

However, even with just theses small speakers playing music, the issue is not totally gone on my challenging selections. Maybe it is the Sony receiver or the room?

Here's a photo of this test. The ONLY active speakers are the small Polk Audio RTI A3's (which I sat on top of the A7's for the test).

https://imgur.com/EEkVyZK

lowrider57: RE: "Listening position is too close to large speakers." Yes, the room is too small for all this equipment. So I'm considering options (see below).

lowrider57: RE: "Too much glass causing reflections in that small room." Agreed.

lowrider57: RE: "Cover the flat screens for now, the goal is to hear if you have good synergy with your basic components." I had experimented with covering the screens previously and that alone did not solve the issue. However, I'll try it again in combination with my other changes mentioned above.

A more radical solution would be to split the music listening and the movie watching into different rooms, each with their own equipment. This room (and this equipment) are fine for movies, but even the much smaller speakers continue to be harsh for high frequencies. (The problem is very apparent on sitar music at higher volume. The sitar is a twangy instrument with it's metal strings, but in live concert the sound is not annoying or harsh at all, and that's what I want to replicate.)

I could keep the home theater in the smaller room with the smaller speakers. For music, I have access to a large room (about 25 feet x 25 feet with a high ceiling) that I could use for music listening. But it has lots of big windows -- the front wall is almost all glass. And there is some equipment in there that always has fans running. I have a second choice, a room that is around 20 x 25 feet, but has tile flooring and I can't put carpet in it. I would also have to do a lot of rearranging. I'm not sure if either is an ideal room for music, but they are larger. Would a room that large be too large for the speakers I currently have? (See original post for list of all speakers.)

For home theater (movies), I think the Sony receiver is good enough. In fact, as I said above, after the minor changes I made, the sound while watching Baby Driver was near perfect with this setup. And I believe that would hold true even if I drop down to the Polk Audio RTI A3's as the front speakers and use an older pair of Polk 35B bookshelf speakers as rears (and also just one subwoofer).

Then I could take the A5's and A7's and the Klipsch R-112SW Subwoofer to another room and pair those up with a nice pre-amp and power amp for music listening. Any thoughts on that?

All suggestions welcome.

This has been very educational. Based on the advice received here (and my experiments so far), this room is too small for both home theater (with the large screen) and optimal music listening. Covering the screens while listening to music will prevent me from picking songs, etc.

So I am going to try moving my music listening location to another room.

I made a new post on that topic here:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/amp-or-receiver-recommendation-for-polk-audio-rti-a7-floorsta...

For this small room, with the feedback I received here, I was able to achieve a great movie sound experience with the existing Sony receiver. This room can work well for home theater. Here are the speakers I'll use:

• Front: Polk Audio RTI A3
• Center Speaker: Polk Audio CSI A6 Center Channel Speaker
• Subwoofer 1: Polk Audio PSW125 Subwoofer
• Subwoofer 2: Klipsch R-112SW Subwoofer (optional)
  
• Rear/Surround: Polk Audio 35B bookshelf speakers (5 yr old never used, purchased on Craigslist)
  

I feel like I have probably solved the home theater part of this, thanks to the advice given here, without spending any money.

I'm going to put my budget toward the music system that will go in another room. See thread linked above if you care of offer any suggestions.

Thanks for the great feedback here. I will keep experimenting with all this, so please continue to comment here if you wish and I'll keep reading and trying things.

Photos: before, during and after:
https://imgur.com/a/o6QzA

Starting point when I posted:
https://imgur.com/VRvxMB2
Dual pairs of large front floorstanding speakers. Treble was harsh and fatiguing.

Testing the A3's
https://imgur.com/EEkVyZK
I sat the smaller A3's on top of the A7's for a quick test. I was not using either floorstanding speaker in this test and the sound was improved. The quick test confirmed I was going in the right direction, just as you guys suggested.


Current home theater setup:
https://imgur.com/j2fGqAq
Sounds the best, but doesn't look as impressive. The various pillows behind the speakers and my extra speaker cables also detract from the appearance. However, after the small tweaks and moving the larger speakers out to open up some space, I don't really have any complaints now, even with sitar or sarangi music. It does not sound harsh or fatiguing. Music sounds very good and movies sound great. The Polk A3's put out a lot of sound. I'm using the Polk Audio CSI A6 center channel speaker now, but I'll have to swap out the TV stand for one with larger shelves to fit this larger center speaker. I'm still using two subwoofers. Movie sound in this small room is just as impressive as with the larger floorstanding speakers.

swampwalker - thank you for that nice summary.

RE: "If you give us a budget and whether you want to buy new or used, we can make specific suggestions. "

That would be awesome. I would like to keep the larger Polk speakers. I like them (build quality and appearance partly). I hope I can repurpose them into a nice music-only system in a larger room.

I describe more details here:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/amp-or-receiver-recommendation-for-polk-audio-rti-a7-floorsta...

In short, my budget is $1000 or so for an integrated amp (or preamp + power amp or whatever is recommended). But I would like to try the dual front speaker setup in the larger room, and that would require more channels.

Since I don't have much experience with audio equipment, I should probably buy new. And I prefer to buy on Amazon because of their generous return policy. I had been anticipating that I would not really know what I wanted/needed until I tried it.

Finally, I do have the option to return one or both pairs of the floorstanding speakers if trying to make a dual front speaker setup work is not a good idea.

erik_squires: "This is why I think so many audiophiles should make at least one pair of speakers in their lifetimes. It would completely reset their expectations of money and value." That's an idea I really like! Thank you.


itsjustme: "I tend to agree that you likely have too much stuff, of too little quality, with too small a room, but proceed logically, step by step." I agree now too. And yes, I will proceed step-by-step. My goal is to learn and gain experience before I start spending a lot of money.

" I know you were asked, but why do you have four sizable speakers?" I started off with a 7.1 configuration. When I realized 7.1 was too much for this room, I tried a 5.1. That left me with two spare speakers, so I experimented.

"To get an objective view of what;s going on maybe you can find a local audio geek with a doppler or pulse spectrum analyzer." That interests me, but meeting trustworthy experts takes time. I hope I can do what you suggested, but I don't know how quickly I'll meet the right audio geek. I only started this project a couple weeks ago. :-)

lowrider57: "Your room now looks like a comfy place to watch a movie." Yes, indeed. I'm pretty satisfied with it for watching movies now. Thanks for everyone's help in getting to this point. :-)

willemj: "Are you using the room eq of your receiver?" Yes, that was part of the solution in this (movie) room.

RE: advice from Johnny at Audio Connection. Yes, I appreciate his advice and I have all of the things suggested that can be done now. (Break-in, for example, will take time.)

mrdecibel: "I would also experiment with hanging a large towel on the front wall, slightly behind, but above the tv ( maybe using painters tape ) to further stop early reflections." Interesting idea. I didn't try it yet, but I will keep this in mind. Thanks.

swampwalker: "In sum, you have inadvertently created a sort of positive feedback loop." Yes, it seems that way! :-)

"I would look for electronics known for a warm or slightly laid back sound (often described as a British sound) and put them in a larger space where the speakers can be well out from the wall behind them and where you can place furniture/pillows, curtains." That sounds like the approach I would like to take.

firstgrowth: "You are getting some good advice re: break-in time. Be patient or run your system on a loop while you're out of the house." Thanks. I know break-in time is controversial, but my system does seem to be getting better with time.

dskinner5: Audience Powerchords... they really work?

jnorris2005: "Your best bet is to turn the treble down on the receiver and move on." That was part of what I did, but it wasn't enough until I also made the other changes discussed above.

"You're using Polk, Sony, LG and Klipsch equipment. Mid-fi at best..." Yes, I know. But I don't have enough experience to warrant buying higher end equipment yet.

taww: "Marantz leans a lot warmer and smoother and should help." OK, good to know.

jnorris2005: "Ridiculously expensive power cords are of questionable value in a very high end system. On a Sony they are an absolute waste of money. On a similar note, while expensive interconnects and speaker cables may have more validity, their effects would be mostly inaudible in this system."

Actually, this is my feeling exactly. While I am open to trying anything that fits my budget, I think I'll hold off on trying expensive cords, cables, and wires until I have a true high end system.

kosst_amojan: "No offense folks, but we're talking about $600 speakers here. Nobody is hearing the qualities of cables through ANY Polk RTi series speakers."

Thanks. This further confirms my feeling. I'll forgo the expensive cables.

mtrot: "No offense to you, but I don’t see how the OP could NOT be offended by your dismissive comment." I wasn't offended at all. I realize people have different opinions. I also realize that the subject of expensive cables is very controversial. I realize bi-wiring is controversial too. I have good quality 4 conductor high strand count 12 AWG OFC speaker cables in a bi-wiring configuration. I think I'll stick with that until I have more expensive gear. (Some might say that even this bi-wiring configuration is overkill for my speakers and AVR.)

oem-wheels: "also use all copper cables, especially in the speaker cable.. ". Yep. :-)

"I'm not sure why he opted for 2 pairs of front channels, but the cash would have been better spent on a single pair of better speakers." I started off with a 7.1 configuration. When I realized 7.1 was too much for this room, I tried a 5.1 with the dual front speakers. I liked it better. But I only did it because I had an extra pair of speakers left over from the 7.1 config that I initially thought was going to work.

willemj: "Since you seem to be in a position that you can return a lot of your gear (all the Polk stuff, including the Polk Sub (?), the Sony, and perhaps also the LG disc player?)" Yes, I bought a lot of it from Amazon, and I think I can return it. But I bought it to begin my learning process. I'm not sure I know enough yet to know which higher end components to purchase. And by the time I can go somewhere to audition equipment, it will be too late to return this. I'm more inclined to take smaller steps. I have my movie room sorted now. As my next step, I would prefer to get a mid-fi music system set up in my larger room using an integrated amp or the Oppo disc player and/or some of the other options you have suggested. I'm trying to learn more about those options now. I like the idea of one of the Yamaha amplifiers you mentioned (e.g.P3500S), the But I'm inclined to keep the RTi speakers at this stage. Later, when I get better speaker, I'll appreciate them more. If I got the best speakers now, I probably would not be able to fully appreciate the sound.


harley52: "Why did you not buy better speakers and buy a smaller tv?" I like my TV. The movie room is fine now. No complaints. I dont' want to change anything about it at the moment. Now I'm focusing on a music system in a larger room.

BTW, if I had initially bought more expensive equipment there is a good chance I would just have made a more expensive mistake. It took the experience of listening to the equipment in THAT room to realize some of my initial ideas were just not realistic. That's why my main goal now is to gain experience step by step.

kosst_amojan - if you said which speakers you own, I missed it. I'd like to know. THanks.

kalali: "The easiest way to reduce treble harshness is to set up the speakers such that the listening position is off-axis of the tweeters, e.g. no toe-in, tilt back, etc. "

I don't remember who recommended that earlier in this thread, but I did try it and, you are right, it did make a significant difference. Thanks for expanding on why it can be a good remedy.

fraterperdurabo: "...the Real Time Analyzer app for your smart phone and do some measurements." Awesome suggestion. Thank you. I didn't know about those apps. I found a couple different Android apps including these:

RTA Audio Analyzer by RadonSoft
Spectroid by Carl Reinke
Sound Level Meter by BOLDEN
Advanced Spectrum Analyzer PRO by Vuche Labs

I have to learn how to use that information, but in playing around with Spectroid for 5 minutes I already see how useful this will be. It does seem like the frequencies around 7kHz are the ones that sound harsh to me when the level is too high. I'll keep measuring.

psickerson: "What kind of music do you listen to?" The harshness I was describing is most apparent to me in classical Indian music (sitar, sarangi, etc.), which is acoustic. However, it was also apparent in alternative rock.

"Roon" - interesting. Had never heard of it, but Roon opens up a whole new can of worms for me, starting with the fact that it won't run on my operating system (Linux). I"ll leave that aside for another time.

psickerson RE: "Roon - since you never heard of it, how can you make assertions about the configuration requirements. "

I simply quoted from their website. Core doesn't run on Linux according to their own site. Do you know otherwise?

willemj - I have a couple mics I could try with my Samsung Galaxy S8. For example a Sennheiser e835. I also have a Rode NTG4 and a couple others. I haven't tried connecting directly to phone yet, but would expect I can make it work.

artemus_5: I am generally not streaming MP3. I am playing CD's or lossless computer files (.wav or similar).

@psickerson RE: "Try Roon..."

Thanks again for that suggestion. I went back and learned a little more about Roon and I also came across HQPlayer by Signalyst.
https://www.signalyst.com/consumer.html

I'm going to investigate this direction. This looks like where I need to go next.

It turns out that "Roon supports Native DSD output on Linux." It's just the Core that doesn't run on Linux, but "two packages are available for Linux: Roon Bridge and Roon Server."

HQPlayer by Signalyst also supports Linux.

I envision that I will use either HQPlayer or Roon, and I'm leaning toward trying HQPlayer first.

I'll start a new thread under "PC Audio" to ask a question about getting started.

I also need to pick hardware that would work with either Roon or HQPlayer.

The HQPlayer page has this helpful hardware list that will be a starting point.

Recommended hardware:

• T+A DAC8 DSD (Win)
• RME ADI-2 Pro (Win/Mac/Linux)
• exaSound e20/e22/e28 (Win/Mac)
• Holo Audio Spring DAC shops: US/EU (Win/Linux)
• iFi iDSD Nano/Micro, iDAC2 (Win/Linux/Mac)
• Sonore microRendu as a NAA
• Logic Supply CL100 as a Windows-based NAA
• TEAC UD-503/NT-503 (Win/Linux)
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital (Win/Linux)
• Fostex HP-A8C (Win/Mac/Linux)
• TEAC UD-501 (Win)
• Sony UDA-1 (Win)
• Resonessence Labs HERUS (Win/Linux/Mac)
• Marantz HD-DAC1 (Linux/Win)
• Prism Lyra/Titan/Atlas (Win/Mac)
• Focusrite Forte (Win/Mac)

Of those, the Teac NT-503 looks most interesting to me (so far). I like that it has XLR balanced outputs which I can connect directly to my Yamaha P5000S amp.

Which Audiogon forum would be best for asking about these hardware choices (DAC, NAA, etc.)? I'll start a new thread in the appropriate place.

Thanks again to everyone for all the interesting feedback!

I have everything plugged in to an APC Back-UPS Pro 1500 VA (model BR1500G). Does that help?

Are you suggesting something like the Furman M-8x2 Power Conditioner? If not, which model?

What does that do that my APC Back-UPS Pro 1500 VA doesn’t do?

The APC has "Automatic Voltage Regulation" and it "corrects low and high voltage conditions".

I also know that some APC UPS’s have this feature:

The UPS provides high performance surge suppression and EMI/RFI (electro-magnetic and radio frequency interference) filtering.

I just sent a question to APC to ask if my UPS has EMI/RFI filtering.

@gnostagick Here's the reply I got:

Thank you for contacting Schneider Electric.  You have reached APC's customer care center email support.

Yes, BR1500G provides provide EMI/RFI filtering.

Glad to know I have it covered, and I appreciate you alerting me to the potential issue.

@perfectpathtech

A large part of the problem is micro arcing, I have released a new product which you can read about in Member reviews under The new tweak. Problem solved!

What is the link to the reviews? Also, my system sounds pretty good now after implementing the changes recommended in earlier comments. Thanks

@iscm

For me the best option would be to have a dedicated system for music.

Already did that. Problem already solved. Thanks.