New Mag-Lev Turntable

I been following this for a while. I might consider buying one solely for a collector's item. Does anyone know how good the tone arm and cartridge are. My biggest concern is what happens if it needs servicing and the company is not around anymore?

Its very cool. Curious to hear about how well it works out.

I'd like to know how the business process works.
 
According the website 580 people have pledged $434,585.
and it says 

This project will be funded on Mon, Nov 21 2016 9:00 AM EST.

So looks like they will be making at least 600 units.
 
Does anyone have real experience with this type of business endeavor ?    

Highly sceptical of this table. Mag Lev with no points of contact is very difficult to do. Not sure how it could be done at all, especially for so little money.

If it can be done, it would require powerful magnets that I would not want anywhere near my cartridges.  

Good point.   Another reason I am curious to see how that all works out.  

The business model is new to me as well.   Not sure how that works either. 

from the website

safety is taken care of

Accidents happen, and we know that sometimes you may encounter a power outage, so we’ve designed the turntable with a UPS system. This solution stores enough power to safely lift the tonearm, stop the record, and return the platter feet to resting position. This way the turntable and your record remain in perfect condition even when the unexpected happens

cool

You know - all of us are merely caretakers for our vinyl. Our records will outlive all of us. Out of box thinking for old technology, that I think will bring in young hearts and minds.

they are up to 588 backers now.

Me thinks sarcher30 is not one of them     :^)

.....good things come out of Slovenia

Thanks to Vic the Magician, I´ve been enjoying the benefit of maglev spindle/platter for nearly three years now and there is no returning...

When the base of the arm and the surface of the platter are not rigidly coupled, the result is that any motion in which both are not a party will be interpreted by the pickup as a coloration. One example could be a loss of bass.

In a turntable ideally there will be no slop in the bearing of the platter or the bearings of the arm so that this rigid coupling can occur. In that way if the platter has motion other than rotation, the arm is moving in the same plane and so cannot pick up whatever that motion (noise) is about. Quite simply, any turntable that breaks this rule for whatever reason will be incapable of state of the art performance.

I agree with what Ralph says above. Mag-Lev under the entire turntable may have some merit. It would just act like a simple spring though. A Minus K or a piezo electric table base would probably work better.

You would never see a vinyl cutting machine with a design like the turntable the OP posted about.

I wonder if an isolation device under a cutting machine would be of benefit?   

I wonder if an isolation device under a cutting machine would be of benefit?  

Yes. And the industry made isolation platforms for lathes going way back to the old days (1940s and 1950s). In addition, the lathe we use is mounted on a special table that has adjustable pointed feet. We audiophiles were several decades late getting to the party!

Atmasphere wrote,

"When the base of the arm and the surface of the platter are not rigidly coupled, the result is that any motion in which both are not a party will be interpreted by the pickup as a coloration. One example could be a loss of bass.

In a turntable ideally there will be no slop in the bearing of the platter or the bearings of the arm so that this rigid coupling can occur. In that way if the platter has motion other than rotation, the arm is moving in the same plane and so cannot pick up whatever that motion (noise) is about. Quite simply, any turntable that breaks this rule for whatever reason will be incapable of state of the art performance."

Actually, Maplenoll turntables employed both air bearing platters AND air bearing tonearms. One assumes the $100K Walker turntable does as well since Lloyd bought out Maplenoll years ago. Thus the tonearm base and the surface of the platter cannot be rigidly connected. Yet Maplenoll TTs are some of the best sounding turntables of all time, and one would imagine Lloyd’s TT is as well, including bass performance. The warhorse Verdier TT employs a mag lev suspension for the heavy platter, obviously decoupling the platter from the tonearm base.

even in the case when the platter and tonearm base are rigidly coupled the whole TT is subject to bending forces produced by Seismic vibration, not to mention the tonearm and platter are excited by Sesimic vibration in the region of their resonant frequencies. So it’s no as if the situation is inert or competely rigid, anyway.

geoff kait
machina dynamica

@Atmasphere and Geoffkait - I find your use of the word Rigid misleading. Why don’t you use "Mechanically Connected" or something like that instead.

Rigid
- unable to bend or be forced out of shape; not flexible.
- not able to be changed or adapted.

Bruce Thigen did much work, analysis in this field.

From ET2 manual.
The large surface area of the air bearing uses some of the tightest tolerances in tonearm manufacturing today, and is much more rigid at audio frequencies than metal bearings.

The detailed data is available for viewing if anyone is interested.

I own Mag Lev, Air and Metal bearings.

@Atmasphere - fwiw I enjoy reading your posts on amplifiers / preamps, but do find your posts on analog playback don’t follow my experiences sometimes. Like here. Could this be because you sell Empire turntables and have a business relationship with Triplanar ? Well thats cool;
but all you have to do in your own room is start the 15 IPS tape and then 10 seconds later start the record. Toggle between the two adjusting for the fact one is high level and one is low level. The turntable set up is very tweakable so one can learn its limits quickly this way and adjust.  Have you compared this way in your own personal room ?
Because of the eminently tweakable nature of turntables, I never set up a room with vinyl first. Digital and Tape 15 IPS has excellent, consistent bass. Once that is setup I bring in the vinyl artillery. Its that easy.

**********

Back to the OP Mofi’s thread topic.

716 backers pledged $551,298. Looks like they met their goal.

Looking to learn. I would be interested if any of these backers/buyers can post their experiences here.

Cheers

Ct0517 wrote,

@Atmasphere and Geoffkait - I find your use of the word Rigid misleading. Why don’t you use "Mechanically Connected" or something like that instead.

Rigid
- unable to bend or be forced out of shape; not flexible.
- not able to be changed or adapted.

That's how we're using the word rigid. With the caveate I'm using that seismic forces can bend anything even a foot thick aluminum bar. Thus, speaking for myself there can be no such thing as completely rigid in the sense that even when two objects are mechanically connected both objects can move when forced by seismic uh, forces. 

Rigid
- unable to bend or be forced out of shape; not flexible.
- not able to be changed or adapted.

Yes- that is how I was using that. In addition, I expect the plinth to otherwise be as dead as possible.

Its important to understand that no plinth will be 100% rigid and dead but you do the best you can.

@Atmasphere - fwiw I enjoy reading your posts on amplifiers / preamps, but do find your posts on analog playback don’t follow my experiences sometimes. Like here. Could this be because you sell Empire turntables and have a business relationship with Triplanar ? Well thats cool;
but all you have to do in your own room is start the 15 IPS tape and then 10 seconds later start the record. Toggle between the two adjusting for the fact one is high level and one is low level. The turntable set up is very tweakable so one can learn its limits quickly this way and adjust.  Have you compared this way in your own personal room ?
Because of the eminently tweakable nature of turntables, I never set up a room with vinyl first. Digital and Tape 15 IPS has excellent, consistent bass. Once that is setup I bring in the vinyl artillery. Its that easy.

I use master tapes as a reference, and have LPs and CDs made from the master tapes. Having been there when the recording was made is an enormous help in establishing a reference! (Atma-Sphere LP 3-001 also issued on CD being one I refer to a lot)

I do sell the model 208 turntable which is heavily based on the Empire, however the ability to market this machine is really limited due to the fact that its entirely dependent on our ability to find the original machines. The 208 is also not a big seller; I base my comments more on how any LP mastering lathe is designed where its very obvious in spades that this rigid coupling concept I espouse is well-known and striven-for by the lathe producers.

Now you might argue that what applies to the lathe does not apply to playback but its pretty easy to see why that idea would be mistaken. In a nutshell, ideally you reverse the process during playback. The addition of an extra plane or planes of vibration during playback on its face sounds like its not a good idea and this is borne out in practice. At every point when we improved the plinth in the turntable by making it more rigid and more dead the closer it got to sounding like the master tape.

Regarding Triplanar: my 'business relationship' with them is limited to shows. I own several of their arms because they have proven over the years to do the best job of playing the LPs I mentioned earlier. To that end specifically: tracking is effortless, the bass is obviously better (in the recording the biggest bass drum in the state of Minnesota was employed on my insistence; it was 6' in diameter and is played both loudly and very quietly; many systems fail to bring it out properly); the mids and highs have the best definition and sound the closest to the tape of any arm I've heard.

"As Davorin Furlan noted during the project presentation, the product combines a commercial factor and a desire to meet current design trends. “We came to a conclusion that during our talks about new ideas, we often change platters thinking for a long time, which one should be played the next. At first, our idea on that a vinyl record has to fly in the air seemed strange. However, the things changed after we bought a magnetic levitator

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV9Pi-K56ks

and found out that it was possible indeed,” the product developers told. After several months of tests, they were able to create a working prototype of a classic turntable."

One can’t help wondering why the inventors of the mag lev turntable didn’t also employ mag lev for the tonearm, which appears to be an easier task than mag leving the platter. Then the new mag lev turntable would be analogous to the air bearing everything Maplenoll (that I used to own), the special edition one with the 50 lb platter. I’m also not sure why all the hoopla since vinyl records have been "flying in the air" for more than 30 years, you know, with Maplenoll, Verdier and Walker turntables. Looks like a clear case of stove piping.

cheers

One can’t help wondering why the inventors of the mag lev turntable didn’t also employ mag lev for the tonearm, which appears to be an easier task than mag leving the platter. Then the new mag lev turntable would be analogous to the air bearing everything

GK - Are you able to tell us how the platter works, (I have an idea), and how doing the arm equivalent would be easier ?
 
They could always add an air bearing tonearm later - phase two. And hey - I can recommend one !     :^)

I’m also not sure why all the hoopla since vinyl records have been "flying in the air" for more than 30 years, you know, with Maplenoll, Verdier and Walker turntables. Looks like a clear case of stove piping.

This turntable brings the isolation benefits of levitating for $1000. also have a look - there is no spindle below the platter. 

8^0

I'm still not getting how a spended platter and direct coupled tonearm to the plinth is suppose to be a good thing.

Major issues with that, I would think.

That was supposed to be suspended. 

Atmasphere
I use master tapes as a reference, and have LPs and CDs made from the master tapes.

@Atmasphere
I acquired my Studer tape deck quite a while ago. Long before the market prices spiked. I am fortunate to have the Studer Canadian Rep being a 40 minute drive from me if I need maintenance. I have really enjoyed it for Come to Jesus moments when in past Audiophile modes. In my line of work, whenever we reached an impasse for whatever reasons on a project, we would call a Come to Jesus meeting. In this meeting, the stakeholders are present, all the facts are laid out, including goals, objectives, budgets, blah blah blah. A decision is made, everyone agrees and we go on.
    
You know, what doesn't make a lot of sense to me at all with Audiophilia, is that we have some "well heeled" Audiophiles searching for that sound; spending thousands on gear. And as we are in the analog forum here, this means - multiple turntables, tonearms, even more cartridges. Yet, they do not take a small portion of that budget, and buy a good reel to reel with one days worth of 15 IPS master tape dubs to use as a reference point . Seems like an obvious way to start at Ground Zero with a good Analog Audio Reference .... and go from there. Let it guide your journey. What better way?  Just makes sense to me.

raymonda
I'm still not getting how a suspended platter and direct coupled tonearm to the plinth is suppose to be a good thing.
Major issues with that, I would think.

So does this mean you would also have issues with a direct coupled platter, and suspended tonearm ?

"You know, what doesn’t make a lot of sense to me at all with Audiophilia, is that we have some "well heeled" Audiophiles searching for that sound; spending thousands on gear. And as we are in the analog forum here, this means - multiple turntables, tonearms, even more cartridges. Yet, they do not take a small portion of that budget, and buy a good reel to reel with one days worth of 15 IPS master tape dubs to use as a reference point . Seems like an obvious way to start at Ground Zero with a good Analog Audio Reference .... and go from there. Let it guide your journey. What better way? Just makes sense to me.@

Nothing really compares to that analog sound you get from tape, whether it’s the master tape, reel to reel, or even the more humble cassette. With the major advantage at least in theory of CDs having been virtually wiped out by overly aggressive dynamic range compression over the past 20 years I am rapidly losing interest. 

You know, what doesn't make a lot of sense to me at all with Audiophilia, is that we have some "well heeled" Audiophiles searching for that sound; spending thousands on gear. And as we are in the analog forum here, this means - multiple turntables, tonearms, even more cartridges. Yet, they do not take a small portion of that budget, and buy a good reel to reel with one days worth of 15 IPS master tape dubs to use as a reference point . Seems like an obvious way to start at Ground Zero with a good Analog Audio Reference .... and go from there. Let it guide your journey. What better way?  Just makes sense to me.

+1.

I think a set of really good mics are a good investment too (I bought a set of Neumann U67s in 1984). The ability to use that tape machine with good mics really helps in establishing a good reference. These days I also run a small recording studio. We have Studer, Ampex, Sony, Otari and Tascam tape machines, as well as a Scully lathe with a Westerex 3d cutter head.

I would think that anything that separates the platter and tone arm, allowing either to be suspended independently from the other would be a problem.

you know raymonda

There is this subtle but important difference between "I think" and "I would think" :^)

If a person says "I think"., it is a straightforward statement about their thoughts on the matter. However "I would think" means that the person would probably argue for whatever is being discussed, if they were asked the question or put to the test.

So for this reason just one question really - is your opinion based on theory, or personal experience ?

if it is the later - personal experience, always looking to learn.

as we know...
Air bearing tonearm spindles are, "suspended", "levitated", and ride on a film of air. Some are partnered with direct coupled turntable platters. while with others, their platters are also levitated. This has been happening since well the 80’s anyway, and is still happening today.

****************
Geoffkait
How do you think this Mag lev table platter stays aligned ?

I think it has to do with same pole repulsion for the main part of the platter and around the edges there is a circular opposite pole pattern. . What do I know. You are the NASA guy right ? What do you think ?

"Geoffkait, How do you think this Mag lev table platter stays aligned ? I think it has to do with same pole repulsion for the main part of the platter and around the edges there is a circular opposite pole pattern. . What do I know. You are the NASA guy right ? What do you think ?"

I don't know. How much do you think the platter weighs?

geoff

I think that air bearing tone arms are considered rigid, and they fall within the same tolerances as standard bearings. I'm not so sure that this magnetic platter design does. From the video you can clearly see a large variance where the platter deviates from flat. Now, whether that is from loose tolerances when manufacturing the platter or suspension effect is unknown.
 
Also, it would be interesting to knock the side of the plinth and see what happens to the platter, as well as, what happens to the whole table while playing an album.

How much do you think the platter weighs?

well thinking out loud this morning. It’s a "look Mom no hands" free floating design, so permanent magnets must be embedded in the platter in some pattern. The plinth portion is using electro magnetic forces. So one idea is; I am visualizing a repulsive force on the inner part of the platter, and some kind of metal ring embedded in the platter closer to the rim. This metal ring provides attraction to the plinth’s forces keeping the platter aligned. We don’t know what kind or amount of electro magnetic force is involved, but the platter floats very high. With cartridge shielding considerations, this makes me think the platter is therefore not very heavy. Without knowing what the actual materials are that the platter is made of, I am guessing, so let’s say a few pounds.

From the video you can clearly see a large variance where the platter deviates from flat. Now, whether that is from loose tolerances when manufacturing the platter or suspension effect is unknown.

I learned from personal experience, never to trust videos and pictures. Especially if you are buying a used boat 8^0.
Damn, when you go to see them, they always look worse than the pictures and videos.

Tolerances is IMO what the audiophile should focus on, when buying a packaged turntable setup (table, tonearm, cartridge). Tolerances are what separate the men from the boys. What should separate a 4 figure turntable package from a 5 figure one.

Example.
So a friend buys a 4 figure turntable package. Table, tonearm and cartridge. He levels the plinth feet to the point where the platter is level in the general area where the tonearm will travel. He then checks the level of the tonearm armboard which is fixed to the plinth. It is not on the same plane as his platter. His tonearm (the one that came with the package) does not have a self leveling system. What’s he going to do ? What happens when he goes to check the other half of the platter ? Is it on the same plane as the side the tonearm rides on ?
I think the person buying this Mag Lev turntable setup is not even thinking of tolerances. He or she is thinking this is so cool, I have to have one. In the end it is always the cartridge and some records that are the victims in a bad setup /design. The website says they have some folks using the product and providing input. Hopefully someone from the project team will have a look at the cartridge after XXX hours, to see what is really going on. To find out the truth. And this reminds me. if someone is having a cartridge re-tipped don’t forget to ask your re-tipper to check the wear pattern. To find out the truth.

ct0517, Yes tolerances are very important. The MagLev table in question is highly unlikely to have good tolerances at it's price point. Also highly unlikely to out perform other turntables at the same price point. All depends on how accurately the platter is spinning and floating. From the video it looks like it has some wobble. Do they have any specs for this table? Speed stability, wow and flutter would be nice to know.  

I'm sure they will sell plenty of them based on the fact that it is a novel and cool looking design. 

 

I also suspect the platter is light, perhaps very light, in order to minimize the magnetic field requirements. I also don’t think that some motion of the platter during play is necessarily a bad thing. The primary advantage of isolating the platter is the attenuation of structural vibrations in the frequency range that could excite the resonant frequency of the cartridge (and tonearm). Thus, low frequency motion of the platter, even visible motion, would be relatively innocuous as far as SQ goes since those very low frequencies are well below the 10-12 Hz resonant frequencies of the cartridge and tonearm. And they would be well below audio frequencies

Geoff, that is true but any extra motion is not ideal. Since there is no spindle how accurately does it spin in one location? Does the platter always align to the same spot? If not this could change the pivot to spindle difference each time. When aligning a cartridge with the platter at rest, will it float in the exact same horizontal location as it does when resting? That could cause an alignment problem. This design may help one design problem but it also creates new design problems as well.

On that same track, in order to align the cartridge correctly you would need to put blocks under the platter to raise it to the same height as when it is spinning. How would you accurately place the platter at the same place it spins when floating? That would be very difficult it not impossible.

On that same track, in order to align the cartridge correctly you would need to put blocks under the platter to raise it to the same height as when it is spinning.

the website discusses the feet which are automatically raised when the table is not used.  here is the video from the site.  

https://ksr-video.imgix.net/assets/014/328/049/8218e7bfb759b4b621a7a1c4329db837_h264_high.mp4

Ok thanks. I missed that. There is some sort of groove on the bottom of the platter. The feet look like they are cone shaped to fit that groove.

To me it seems like a lot of work for a mid-fi product

Ok, that video answered some questions for me. Hit the platter and it wobbles side to side while the arm remains static. How in the world is that suppose to track without distortion and possibly skipping. Now, if they levitated the arm on a beam connected to the same plain as the platter, e.g., Rega, and it could move in accordance to the same micro and macro vibrations I might consider it. 

Also, you can clearly see how much the platter wobbles during normal playback. Whether that is uneven levitation or poor platter tolerances it is not a good thing.

I'll pass on this big time.

sarcher30
594 posts
11-27-2016 10:48am
Geoff, that is true but any extra motion is not ideal.

that's probably true but it might be a trade off between seismic vibration and any motion the platter provides, I.e., which is worse? On a related subject I'm not sure how accurately the spindle holes are centered in records generally. Maybe I shouldn't worry about it. 🙂

If my little Bengal kitty managed to sneak under the platter when a record was playing, would the platter drop on her .... or would the spiked feet come up in backup mode and trap her ?

ct0517, I was kind of wondering that myself. My guess is the magnetism would go right through things that are not magnetic.

Geoff, vinyl has many flaws. If you do not want to sweat the details that is fine. I prefer not to add errors if I can help it personally.

"Geoff, vinyl has many flaws. If you do not want to sweat the details that is fine. I prefer not to add errors if I can help it personally."

geez, just when I was learning to put smiley faces after my posts

😢

ct0517, I was kind of wondering that myself. My guess is the magnetism would go right through things that are not magnetic.

But Sarcher - my little kitty is full of magnetism. So much so she is allowed downstairs in the rooms.But she likes strings so I fear for the drive system on my main turntable; and I think I need to put the clothes back on the Quads.

vinyl has many flaws.

Poor old record. takes a beating and keeps on ticking. It will still be ticking when we are not.
You know, I have seen the pictures and videos of the golden era, when the best vinyl was produced and is coveted by so many. The quality control team looked like my Aunt Betty and friends; and they did the best job they could. I would put more trust in them than my government. Not their fault the presses were engineered with terrible tolerances. Well, no engineer ever envisioned what an Audiophile was, or that records would fly.
They are a moving target - records - literally. They go up and down, sideways. What audiophiles do sometimes to control this makes for interesting reading. The starting grooves are the best - like a 4 lane highway; the inner grooves the smallest and tightest. What...Don’t the music engineers know this? Why do they put the best songs at the end?
And they are made of - well vinyl of course. It changes shape with temperature and you can find pieces of it on your cartridge. So the vinyl record is anything but rigid. So why would you want to mate it to a rigid dance partner?

Hit the platter and it wobbles side to side while the arm remains static. How in the world is that suppose to track without distortion and possibly skipping. Now, if they levitated the arm on a beam connected to the same plain as the platter, e.g., Rega, and it could move in accordance to the same micro and macro vibrations I might consider it.

S'what I'm say'n!

"Hit the platter and it wobbles side to side while the arm remains static. How in the world is that suppose to track without distortion and possibly skipping. Now, if they levitated the arm on a beam connected to the same plain as the platter, e.g., Rega, and it could move in accordance to the same micro and macro vibrations I might consider it."

to which atmosphere replied,

"S'what I'm say'n!"

helpful hint: don't hit the platter whilst the record is playing.

helpful hint: don’t hit the platter whilst the record is playing.

Audiophile Handbook
Rule Number 136. Section 3 Page 24.

"Thou shall tap the platter and plinth with a blunt object, while a record is playing, once every 2 hours of listening. This critical test will check to ensure optimum cartridge tracking ability; as well as to ensure that the turntable resonances are not varying."

Cool factor aside, I am starting to think more and more that this Mag Lev turntable was built for the Music Lover, not the Audiophile  :^)

What holds true for macro vibrations, hold true for micro.

Look at the wobble in the platter, duh!

That’s nothing. Look at the wobble in this Rega RP1,

https://youtu.be/JklUhyW_L1s

And the wow on this record,

https://youtu.be/ncAvbtwE-as

Rolling hills music on the Cardas’ table.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF7udQJLXPQ

see the 35 second mark.

I think that Rega is defective and not representative of their tolerance standards.

BTW, if it is not, what does one bad design have to do with another?

raymonda
What holds true for macro vibrations, hold true for micro.

actually that’s not true for isolation devices since the top plate, which in the case of the mag lev turntable is the platter, can only move at the mag lev ISO system resonant frequency, probably 3 or 4 Hz. Mico vibrations (of low amplitude) can be ignored since they cannot overcome the inertia of the platter. Micro or Macro vibrations of higher frequencies can be ignored as well due to isolation. That’s why a granite slab on a spring system won’t ring - because the granite slab is itself isolated from vibrations of the specific frequencies that would otherwise cause the granite to ring.