akadurf It seems that the vertical tracking angle would be difficult to maintain between lp’s of dirrerent mass.
akadurf - thought about this over coffee.
I make physics assumptions here, not knowing the designer or the product, and whether the Electro Magnetic EM force "system" used is fixed or variable. I am assuming fixed.
If the EM force is affected by changes in lp weight, then the heaver/thicker/taller lp will play on a a little lower plane due to the weight going against the electromagnetic force. This will even out things, and the heavier lp will actually be at the same plane as with the lighter thinner lp. Make sense ?
If this is indeed how it works, the tonearm on this table does not even need VTA adjustment, a clear advantage over a fixed platter. As far as center weights go; most I know use a center weight to tune resonances. That would appear to become a moot point as well with the levitation.
The whole VTA topic is a fascinating physics discussion. We know that with all tonearms, except one..... due to a patented design, the VTF - (force) changes when you make VTA - (angle) changes. When audiophile friends actually analyze what is really happening for the first time, they are usually surprised. In my experience how often one needs to change VTA depends on two things. The stylus and listener (individual) type. Two records same thickness can have different cut angles. The cutting stylus lasts only hours and setting it up the same way each time is very difficult. I think Atmasphere can give us more details :^)
If you are really experiencing this then the damping is not working as you surmise. Its impossible to overdamp for vibration if the damping is indeed working correctly!
My comments were based on my personal experiences, and relative to the other designs in the room. Every design has its limits. In this case, imo, it’s a case of having to do unique damping for a design that from the start - employs a mechanical wheel - a high noise design. The Swiss motor is a thing of beauty, but the way it puts the pedal to the metal is not. It’s a really nice, musical table and is praised by many. At the time, raised the bar in a couple areas. Challenged me with the other two design tables in the room when I first brought it in. Some can’t get over how big it is, when they see it in person; especially when you realize there are huge full voids, by design, under the two armboards and platter/motor. And it’s still 100 lbs !
So a wonderful turntable but, when compared with others .....in the same room......, same 2 tonearms........same 2 cartridges......same people..........same time, differences revealed. That’s why I say my comments are relative based on the other designs. If you are interested in the details of the above go to my virtual system and do a search on Goldilocks and the Three Turntables.
@Atmasphere - so what table set up have you heard, whether at a customer’s house, show, wherever; that based on familiar equipment being used, performed above your Empire turntable setup. I would be interested to know.
But... when you dampen you can also lose extension.
If you are really experiencing this then the damping is not working as you surmise. Its impossible to overdamp for vibration if the damping is indeed working correctly!
Things that on the surface appear to be problems are actually advantages, that’s all.
I prefer the design that recognizes that this is about resonances and vibrations to make music. There are different ways to go about it. I have a 100 lb Jean Nantais Lenco that does a good job of damping them (resonances) with its design. But... when you dampen you can also lose extension.
I have not contributed to this kickstarter project, and am not in Audiophile mode, but if I was....
I’d be, as has been stated, changing out the feet for better isolation to the tonearm, and also changing the tonearm out for one that provides isolation as part of its design. In others words, I would follow with the designers original intentions and try to better them.
There are audiophiles that drop 5 figures on a totally mechanically coupled turntable setup, and many of these are going into from what I have seen from friends, the main floor of the house - a suspended wood floor. So the fellow has just put out a princely sum on the table setup, and soon will discover that he needs more $$$$, some type of isolation platform, on top of his original investment. The dealer is very happy to sell him one. This also means the dealer needs to do his/her homework on what the person’s room needs are.
The young project team for the Mag Lev turntable is proof of the enduring quality of vinyl. The way I see it, this should be celebrated if you like vinyl and playing records. It means continuity. So some of the attitudes shown on this thread are surprising..... well maybe not.
You know I spent my work career doing project management. So much so that I am an accredited PmP. Friends like to call me a PimP, but that's a topic for another thread.
I have met all kinds of personalities on projects, and have come to my own conclusion that for that subset of individuals that like to know and figure out how things work - well they fall into two groups.
Group 1 - look down. are well grounded. Like both feet on the ground.
Group 2 - tend to look up more. what do you see when you look up? Birds. So they dream of flying.
Now .......
When a Group 1 Audiophile gets a hold of (owns) a product made by a Group 2 individual (and vice versa), it makes for interesting forum reading.
Looks like you really like the engineering of this"
Sure, why not? And with a half million dollars raised in the Mag Lev Kickstarter a lot of others like it too. Things that on the surface appear to be problems are actually advantages, that’s all.
All you need to do is put the whole shebang up on some high carbon cryo’d springs then you’d really be in business. You’d have two stages of isolation for the platter and one stage of isolation for the tonearm and cartridge. 😊
"Hit the platter and it wobbles side to side while the arm remains static."
Any iso device worth it’s salt will move when struck or pushed. It’s the advantage of mass on spring iso devices (and mag lev devices) that they move EASILY in the direction of isolation. If an isolation device didn't move in the direction of the push it couldn't isolate in that direction. Obviously the Mag Lev turntable isolates in both vertical direction and all horizontal directions. If it couldn’t move easily it would NOT isolate. Hel-loo, Of course you wouldn’t want the Mag Lev platter to move due to the micro force of the stylus/cartridge.
raymonda What holds true for macro vibrations, hold true for micro.
actually that’s not true for isolation devices since the top plate, which in the case of the mag lev turntable is the platter, can only move at the mag lev ISO system resonant frequency, probably 3 or 4 Hz. Mico vibrations (of low amplitude) can be ignored since they cannot overcome the inertia of the platter. Micro or Macro vibrations of higher frequencies can be ignored as well due to isolation. That’s why a granite slab on a spring system won’t ring - because the granite slab is itself isolated from vibrations of the specific frequencies that would otherwise cause the granite to ring.
helpful hint: don’t hit the platter whilst the record is playing.
Audiophile Handbook Rule Number 136. Section 3 Page 24.
"Thou shall tap the platter and plinth with a blunt object, while a record is playing, once every 2 hours of listening. This critical test will check to ensure optimum cartridge tracking ability; as well as to ensure that the turntable resonances are not varying."
Cool factor aside, I am starting to think more and more that this Mag Lev turntable was built for the Music Lover, not the Audiophile :^)
"Hit the platter and it wobbles side to side while the arm remains static. How in the world is that suppose to track without distortion and possibly skipping. Now, if they levitated the arm on a beam connected to the same plain as the platter, e.g., Rega, and it could move in accordance to the same micro and macro vibrations I might consider it."
to which atmosphere replied,
"S'what I'm say'n!"
helpful hint: don't hit the platter whilst the record is playing.
Hit the platter and it wobbles side to side while the arm remains
static. How in the world is that suppose to track without distortion and
possibly skipping. Now, if they levitated the arm on a beam connected
to the same plain as the platter, e.g., Rega, and it could move in
accordance to the same micro and macro vibrations I might consider it.
ct0517, I was kind of wondering that myself. My guess is the magnetism would go right through things that are not magnetic.
But Sarcher - my little kitty is full of magnetism. So much so she is allowed downstairs in the rooms.But she likes strings so I fear for the drive system on my main turntable; and I think I need to put the clothes back on the Quads.
vinyl has many flaws.
Poor old record. takes a beating and keeps on ticking. It will still be ticking when we are not. You know, I have seen the pictures and videos of the golden era, when the best vinyl was produced and is coveted by so many. The quality control team looked like my Aunt Betty and friends; and they did the best job they could. I would put more trust in them than my government. Not their fault the presses were engineered with terrible tolerances. Well, no engineer ever envisioned what an Audiophile was, or that records would fly. They are a moving target - records - literally. They go up and down, sideways. What audiophiles do sometimes to control this makes for interesting reading. The starting grooves are the best - like a 4 lane highway; the inner grooves the smallest and tightest. What...Don’t the music engineers know this? Why do they put the best songs at the end? And they are made of - well vinyl of course. It changes shape with temperature and you can find pieces of it on your cartridge. So the vinyl record is anything but rigid. So why would you want to mate it to a rigid dance partner?
If my little Bengal kitty managed to sneak under the platter when a record was playing, would the platter drop on her .... or would the spiked feet come up in backup mode and trap her ?
sarcher30 594 posts 11-27-2016 10:48am Geoff, that is true but any extra motion is not ideal.
that's probably true but it might be a trade off between seismic vibration and any motion the platter provides, I.e., which is worse? On a related subject I'm not sure how accurately the spindle holes are centered in records generally. Maybe I shouldn't worry about it. 🙂
Ok, that video answered some questions for me. Hit the platter and it wobbles side to side while the arm remains static. How in the world is that suppose to track without distortion and possibly skipping. Now, if they levitated the arm on a beam connected to the same plain as the platter, e.g., Rega, and it could move in accordance to the same micro and macro vibrations I might consider it.
Also, you can clearly see how much the platter wobbles during normal playback. Whether that is uneven levitation or poor platter tolerances it is not a good thing.
On that same track, in order to align the cartridge correctly you would need to put blocks under the platter to raise it to the same height as when it is spinning.
the website discusses the feet which are automatically raised when the table is not used. here is the video from the site.
On that same track, in order to align the cartridge correctly you would need to put blocks under the platter to raise it to the same height as when it is spinning. How would you accurately place the platter at the same place it spins when floating? That would be very difficult it not impossible.
Geoff, that is true but any extra motion is not ideal. Since there is no spindle how accurately does it spin in one location? Does the platter always align to the same spot? If not this could change the pivot to spindle difference each time. When aligning a cartridge with the platter at rest, will it float in the exact same horizontal location as it does when resting? That could cause an alignment problem. This design may help one design problem but it also creates new design problems as well.
I also suspect the platter is light, perhaps very light, in order to minimize the magnetic field requirements. I also don’t think that some motion of the platter during play is necessarily a bad thing. The primary advantage of isolating the platter is the attenuation of structural vibrations in the frequency range that could excite the resonant frequency of the cartridge (and tonearm). Thus, low frequency motion of the platter, even visible motion, would be relatively innocuous as far as SQ goes since those very low frequencies are well below the 10-12 Hz resonant frequencies of the cartridge and tonearm. And they would be well below audio frequencies
ct0517, Yes tolerances are very important. The MagLev table in question is highly unlikely to have good tolerances at it's price point. Also highly unlikely to out perform other turntables at the same price point. All depends on how accurately the platter is spinning and floating. From the video it looks like it has some wobble. Do they have any specs for this table? Speed stability, wow and flutter would be nice to know.
I'm sure they will sell plenty of them based on the fact that it is a novel and cool looking design.
well thinking out loud this morning. It’s a "look Mom no hands" free floating design, so permanent magnets must be embedded in the platter in some pattern. The plinth portion is using electro magnetic forces. So one idea is; I am visualizing a repulsive force on the inner part of the platter, and some kind of metal ring embedded in the platter closer to the rim. This metal ring provides attraction to the plinth’s forces keeping the platter aligned. We don’t know what kind or amount of electro magnetic force is involved, but the platter floats very high. With cartridge shielding considerations, this makes me think the platter is therefore not very heavy. Without knowing what the actual materials are that the platter is made of, I am guessing, so let’s say a few pounds.
From the video you can clearly see a large variance where the platter deviates from flat. Now, whether that is from loose tolerances when manufacturing the platter or suspension effect is unknown.
I learned from personal experience, never to trust videos and pictures. Especially if you are buying a used boat 8^0. Damn, when you go to see them, they always look worse than the pictures and videos.
Tolerances is IMO what the audiophile should focus on, when buying a packaged turntable setup (table, tonearm, cartridge). Tolerances are what separate the men from the boys. What should separate a 4 figure turntable package from a 5 figure one.
Example. So a friend buys a 4 figure turntable package. Table, tonearm and cartridge. He levels the plinth feet to the point where the platter is level in the general area where the tonearm will travel. He then checks the level of the tonearm armboard which is fixed to the plinth. It is not on the same plane as his platter. His tonearm (the one that came with the package) does not have a self leveling system. What’s he going to do ? What happens when he goes to check the other half of the platter ? Is it on the same plane as the side the tonearm rides on ? I think the person buying this Mag Lev turntable setup is not even thinking of tolerances. He or she is thinking this is so cool, I have to have one. In the end it is always the cartridge and some records that are the victims in a bad setup /design. The website says they have some folks using the product and providing input. Hopefully someone from the project team will have a look at the cartridge after XXX hours, to see what is really going on. To find out the truth. And this reminds me. if someone is having a cartridge re-tipped don’t forget to ask your re-tipper to check the wear pattern. To find out the truth.
I think that air bearing tone arms are considered rigid, and they fall within the same tolerances as standard bearings. I'm not so sure that this magnetic platter design does. From the video you can clearly see a large variance where the platter deviates from flat. Now, whether that is from loose tolerances when manufacturing the platter or suspension effect is unknown.
Also, it would be interesting to knock the side of the plinth and see what happens to the platter, as well as, what happens to the whole table while playing an album.
"Geoffkait, How do you think this Mag lev table platter stays aligned ? I think it has to do with same pole repulsion for the main part of the platter and around the edges there is a circular opposite pole pattern. . What do I know. You are the NASA guy right ? What do you think ?"
I don't know. How much do you think the platter weighs?
There is this subtle but important difference between "I think" and "I would think" :^)
If a person says "I think"., it is a straightforward statement about their thoughts on the matter. However "I would think" means that the person would probably argue for whatever is being discussed, if they were asked the question or put to the test.
So for this reason just one question really - is your opinion based on theory, or personal experience ?
if it is the later - personal experience, always looking to learn.
as we know... Air bearing tonearm spindles are, "suspended", "levitated", and ride on a film of air. Some are partnered with direct coupled turntable platters. while with others, their platters are also levitated. This has been happening since well the 80’s anyway, and is still happening today.
**************** Geoffkait How do you think this Mag lev table platter stays aligned ?
I think it has to do with same pole repulsion for the main part of the platter and around the edges there is a circular opposite pole pattern. . What do I know. You are the NASA guy right ? What do you think ?
You know, what doesn't make a lot of sense to me at all with
Audiophilia, is that we have some "well heeled" Audiophiles searching
for that sound; spending thousands on gear. And as we are in the analog
forum here, this means - multiple turntables, tonearms, even more
cartridges. Yet, they do not take a small portion of that budget, and
buy a good reel to reel with one days worth of 15 IPS master tape dubs
to use as a reference point . Seems like an obvious way to start at
Ground Zero with a good Analog Audio Reference .... and go from there.
Let it guide your journey. What better way? Just makes sense to me.
+1.
I think a set of really good mics are a good investment too (I bought a set of Neumann U67s in 1984). The ability to use that tape machine with good mics really helps in establishing a good reference. These days I also run a small recording studio. We have Studer, Ampex, Sony, Otari and Tascam tape machines, as well as a Scully lathe with a Westerex 3d cutter head.
"You know, what doesn’t make a lot of sense to me at all with Audiophilia, is that we have some "well heeled" Audiophiles searching for that sound; spending thousands on gear. And as we are in the analog forum here, this means - multiple turntables, tonearms, even more cartridges. Yet, they do not take a small portion of that budget, and buy a good reel to reel with one days worth of 15 IPS master tape dubs to use as a reference point . Seems like an obvious way to start at Ground Zero with a good Analog Audio Reference .... and go from there. Let it guide your journey. What better way? Just makes sense to me.@
Nothing really compares to that analog sound you get from tape, whether it’s the master tape, reel to reel, or even the more humble cassette. With the major advantage at least in theory of CDs having been virtually wiped out by overly aggressive dynamic range compression over the past 20 years I am rapidly losing interest.
Atmasphere I use master tapes as a reference, and have LPs and CDs made from the master tapes.
@Atmasphere I acquired my Studer tape deck quite a while ago. Long before the market prices spiked. I am fortunate to have the Studer Canadian Rep being a 40 minute drive from me if I need maintenance. I have really enjoyed it for Come to Jesus moments when in past Audiophile modes. In my line of work, whenever we reached an impasse for whatever reasons on a project, we would call a Come to Jesus meeting. In this meeting, the stakeholders are present, all the facts are laid out, including goals, objectives, budgets, blah blah blah. A decision is made, everyone agrees and we go on.
You know, what doesn't make a lot of sense to me at all with Audiophilia, is that we have some "well heeled" Audiophiles searching for that sound; spending thousands on gear. And as we are in the analog forum here, this means - multiple turntables, tonearms, even more cartridges. Yet, they do not take a small portion of that budget, and buy a good reel to reel with one days worth of 15 IPS master tape dubs to use as a reference point . Seems like an obvious way to start at Ground Zero with a good Analog Audio Reference .... and go from there. Let it guide your journey. What better way? Just makes sense to me.
raymonda I'm still not getting how a suspended platter and direct coupled tonearm to the plinth is suppose to be a good thing. Major issues with that, I would think.
So does this mean you would also have issues with a direct coupled platter, and suspended tonearm ?
One can’t help wondering why the inventors of the mag lev turntable didn’t also employ mag lev for the tonearm, which appears to be an easier task than mag leving the platter. Then the new mag lev turntable would be analogous to the air bearing everything
GK - Are you able to tell us how the platter works, (I have an idea), and how doing the arm equivalent would be easier ?
They could always add an air bearing tonearm later - phase two. And hey - I can recommend one ! :^)
I’m also not sure why all the hoopla since vinyl records have been "flying in the air" for more than 30 years, you know, with Maplenoll, Verdier and Walker turntables. Looks like a clear case of stove piping.
This turntable brings the isolation benefits of levitating for $1000. also have a look - there is no spindle below the platter.
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