I'd like to know how the business process works. According the website 580 people have pledged $434,585. and it says This project will be funded on Mon, Nov 21 2016 9:00 AM EST.
So looks like they will be making at least 600 units. Does anyone have real experience with this type of business endeavor ? |
from the website safety is taken care of
Accidents happen, and we know that sometimes you may encounter a power outage, so we’ve designed the turntable with a UPS system. This solution stores enough power to safely lift the tonearm, stop the record, and return the platter feet to resting position. This way the turntable and your record remain in perfect condition even when the unexpected happens cool You know - all of us are merely caretakers for our vinyl. Our records will outlive all of us. Out of box thinking for old technology, that I think will bring in young hearts and minds. they are up to 588 backers now. Me thinks sarcher30 is not one of them :^) .....good things come out of Slovenia |
@Atmasphere and Geoffkait - I find your use of the word Rigid misleading. Why don’t you use "Mechanically Connected" or something like that instead. Rigid - unable to bend or be forced out of shape; not flexible. - not able to be changed or adapted. Bruce Thigen did much work, analysis in this field. From ET2 manual.
The large surface area of the air bearing uses some of the tightest tolerances in tonearm manufacturing today, and is much more rigid at audio frequencies than metal bearings.
The detailed data is available for viewing if anyone is interested. I own Mag Lev, Air and Metal bearings. @Atmasphere - fwiw I enjoy reading your posts on amplifiers / preamps, but do find your posts on analog playback don’t follow my experiences sometimes. Like here. Could this be because you sell Empire turntables and have a business relationship with Triplanar ? Well thats cool; but all you have to do in your own room is start the 15 IPS tape and then 10 seconds later start the record. Toggle between the two adjusting for the fact one is high level and one is low level. The turntable set up is very tweakable so one can learn its limits quickly this way and adjust. Have you compared this way in your own personal room ? Because of the eminently tweakable nature of turntables, I never set up a room with vinyl first. Digital and Tape 15 IPS has excellent, consistent bass. Once that is setup I bring in the vinyl artillery. Its that easy. ********** Back to the OP Mofi’s thread topic. 716 backers pledged $551,298. Looks like they met their goal. Looking to learn. I would be interested if any of these backers/buyers can post their experiences here. Cheers |
One can’t help wondering why the inventors of the mag lev turntable didn’t also employ mag lev for the tonearm, which appears to be an easier task than mag leving the platter. Then the new mag lev turntable would be analogous to the air bearing everything GK - Are you able to tell us how the platter works, (I have an idea), and how doing the arm equivalent would be easier ? They could always add an air bearing tonearm later - phase two. And hey - I can recommend one ! :^) I’m also not sure why all the hoopla since vinyl records have been "flying in the air" for more than 30 years, you know, with Maplenoll, Verdier and Walker turntables. Looks like a clear case of stove piping. This turntable brings the isolation benefits of levitating for $1000. also have a look - there is no spindle below the platter. 8^0 |
"As Davorin Furlan noted during the project presentation, the product combines a commercial factor and a desire to meet current design trends. “We came to a conclusion that during our talks about new ideas, we often change platters thinking for a long time, which one should be played the next. At first, our idea on that a vinyl record has to fly in the air seemed strange. However, the things changed after we bought a magnetic levitator https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV9Pi-K56ksand found out that it was possible indeed,” the product developers told. After several months of tests, they were able to create a working prototype of a classic turntable." |
Atmasphere
I use master tapes as a reference, and have LPs and CDs made from the master tapes. @Atmasphere I acquired my Studer tape deck quite a while ago. Long before the market prices spiked. I am fortunate to have the Studer Canadian Rep being a 40 minute drive from me if I need maintenance. I have really enjoyed it for Come to Jesus moments when in past Audiophile modes. In my line of work, whenever we reached an impasse for whatever reasons on a project, we would call a Come to Jesus meeting. In this meeting, the stakeholders are present, all the facts are laid out, including goals, objectives, budgets, blah blah blah. A decision is made, everyone agrees and we go on. You know, what doesn't make a lot of sense to me at all with Audiophilia, is that we have some "well heeled" Audiophiles searching for that sound; spending thousands on gear. And as we are in the analog forum here, this means - multiple turntables, tonearms, even more cartridges. Yet, they do not take a small portion of that budget, and buy a good reel to reel with one days worth of 15 IPS master tape dubs to use as a reference point . Seems like an obvious way to start at Ground Zero with a good Analog Audio Reference .... and go from there. Let it guide your journey. What better way? Just makes sense to me. raymonda
I'm still not getting how a suspended platter and direct coupled tonearm to the plinth is suppose to be a good thing.
Major issues with that, I would think. So does this mean you would also have issues with a direct coupled platter, and suspended tonearm ? |
If my little Bengal kitty managed to sneak under the platter when a record was playing, would the platter drop on her .... or would the spiked feet come up in backup mode and trap her ?
|
you know raymonda
There is this subtle but important difference between "I think" and "I would think" :^)
If a person says "I think"., it is a straightforward statement about their thoughts on the matter. However "I would think" means that the person would probably argue for whatever is being discussed, if they were asked the question or put to the test.
So for this reason just one question really - is your opinion based on theory, or personal experience ?
if it is the later - personal experience, always looking to learn.
as we know...
Air bearing tonearm spindles are, "suspended", "levitated", and ride on a film of air. Some are partnered with direct coupled turntable platters. while with others, their platters are also levitated. This has been happening since well the 80’s anyway, and is still happening today.
****************
Geoffkait
How do you think this Mag lev table platter stays aligned ?
I think it has to do with same pole repulsion for the main part of the platter and around the edges there is a circular opposite pole pattern. . What do I know. You are the NASA guy right ? What do you think ?
|
How much do you think the platter weighs? well thinking out loud this morning. It’s a "look Mom no hands" free floating design, so permanent magnets must be embedded in the platter in some pattern. The plinth portion is using electro magnetic forces. So one idea is; I am visualizing a repulsive force on the inner part of the platter, and some kind of metal ring embedded in the platter closer to the rim. This metal ring provides attraction to the plinth’s forces keeping the platter aligned. We don’t know what kind or amount of electro magnetic force is involved, but the platter floats very high. With cartridge shielding considerations, this makes me think the platter is therefore not very heavy. Without knowing what the actual materials are that the platter is made of, I am guessing, so let’s say a few pounds. From the video you can clearly see a large variance where the platter deviates from flat. Now, whether that is from loose tolerances when manufacturing the platter or suspension effect is unknown. I learned from personal experience, never to trust videos and pictures. Especially if you are buying a used boat 8^0. Damn, when you go to see them, they always look worse than the pictures and videos. Tolerances is IMO what the audiophile should focus on, when buying a packaged turntable setup (table, tonearm, cartridge). Tolerances are what separate the men from the boys. What should separate a 4 figure turntable package from a 5 figure one. Example. So a friend buys a 4 figure turntable package. Table, tonearm and cartridge. He levels the plinth feet to the point where the platter is level in the general area where the tonearm will travel. He then checks the level of the tonearm armboard which is fixed to the plinth. It is not on the same plane as his platter. His tonearm (the one that came with the package) does not have a self leveling system. What’s he going to do ? What happens when he goes to check the other half of the platter ? Is it on the same plane as the side the tonearm rides on ? I think the person buying this Mag Lev turntable setup is not even thinking of tolerances. He or she is thinking this is so cool, I have to have one. In the end it is always the cartridge and some records that are the victims in a bad setup /design. The website says they have some folks using the product and providing input. Hopefully someone from the project team will have a look at the cartridge after XXX hours, to see what is really going on. To find out the truth. And this reminds me. if someone is having a cartridge re-tipped don’t forget to ask your re-tipper to check the wear pattern. To find out the truth. |
|
ct0517, I was kind of wondering that myself. My guess is the magnetism would go right through things that are not magnetic. But Sarcher - my little kitty is full of magnetism. So much so she is allowed downstairs in the rooms.But she likes strings so I fear for the drive system on my main turntable; and I think I need to put the clothes back on the Quads. vinyl has many flaws. Poor old record. takes a beating and keeps on ticking. It will still be ticking when we are not. You know, I have seen the pictures and videos of the golden era, when the best vinyl was produced and is coveted by so many. The quality control team looked like my Aunt Betty and friends; and they did the best job they could. I would put more trust in them than my government. Not their fault the presses were engineered with terrible tolerances. Well, no engineer ever envisioned what an Audiophile was, or that records would fly. They are a moving target - records - literally. They go up and down, sideways. What audiophiles do sometimes to control this makes for interesting reading. The starting grooves are the best - like a 4 lane highway; the inner grooves the smallest and tightest. What...Don’t the music engineers know this? Why do they put the best songs at the end? And they are made of - well vinyl of course. It changes shape with temperature and you can find pieces of it on your cartridge. So the vinyl record is anything but rigid. So why would you want to mate it to a rigid dance partner? |
|
helpful hint: don’t hit the platter whilst the record is playing.
Audiophile Handbook Rule Number 136. Section 3 Page 24. "Thou shall tap the platter and plinth with a blunt object, while a record is playing, once every 2 hours of listening. This critical test will check to ensure optimum cartridge tracking ability; as well as to ensure that the turntable resonances are not varying." Cool factor aside, I am starting to think more and more that this Mag Lev turntable was built for the Music Lover, not the Audiophile :^) |
The young project team for the Mag Lev turntable is proof of the enduring quality of vinyl. The way I see it, this should be celebrated if you like vinyl and playing records. It means continuity. So some of the attitudes shown on this thread are surprising..... well maybe not.
You know I spent my work career doing project management. So much so that I am an accredited PmP. Friends like to call me a PimP, but that's a topic for another thread.
I have met all kinds of personalities on projects, and have come to my own conclusion that for that subset of individuals that like to know and figure out how things work - well they fall into two groups.
Group 1 - look down. are well grounded. Like both feet on the ground.
Group 2 - tend to look up more. what do you see when you look up? Birds.
So they dream of flying.
Now .......
When a Group 1 Audiophile gets a hold of (owns) a product made by a Group 2 individual (and vice versa), it makes for interesting forum reading.
|
. Things that on the surface appear to be problems are actually advantages, that’s all. I prefer the design that recognizes that this is about resonances and vibrations to make music. There are different ways to go about it. I have a 100 lb Jean Nantais Lenco that does a good job of damping them (resonances) with its design. But... when you dampen you can also lose extension. I have not contributed to this kickstarter project, and am not in Audiophile mode, but if I was.... I’d be, as has been stated, changing out the feet for better isolation to the tonearm, and also changing the tonearm out for one that provides isolation as part of its design. In others words, I would follow with the designers original intentions and try to better them. There are audiophiles that drop 5 figures on a totally mechanically coupled turntable setup, and many of these are going into from what I have seen from friends, the main floor of the house - a suspended wood floor. So the fellow has just put out a princely sum on the table setup, and soon will discover that he needs more $$$$, some type of isolation platform, on top of his original investment. The dealer is very happy to sell him one. This also means the dealer needs to do his/her homework on what the person’s room needs are. |
If you are really experiencing this then the damping is not working as you surmise. Its impossible to overdamp for vibration if the damping is indeed working correctly! My comments were based on my personal experiences, and relative to the other designs in the room. Every design has its limits. In this case, imo, it’s a case of having to do unique damping for a design that from the start - employs a mechanical wheel - a high noise design. The Swiss motor is a thing of beauty, but the way it puts the pedal to the metal is not. It’s a really nice, musical table and is praised by many. At the time, raised the bar in a couple areas. Challenged me with the other two design tables in the room when I first brought it in. Some can’t get over how big it is, when they see it in person; especially when you realize there are huge full voids, by design, under the two armboards and platter/motor. And it’s still 100 lbs ! So a wonderful turntable but, when compared with others .....in the same room......, same 2 tonearms........same 2 cartridges......same people..........same time, differences revealed. That’s why I say my comments are relative based on the other designs. If you are interested in the details of the above go to my virtual system and do a search on Goldilocks and the Three Turntables. @Atmasphere - so what table set up have you heard, whether at a customer’s house, show, wherever; that based on familiar equipment being used, performed above your Empire turntable setup. I would be interested to know. Cheers. |
akadurf
It seems that the vertical tracking angle would be difficult to maintain between lp’s of dirrerent mass. akadurf - thought about this over coffee. I make physics assumptions here, not knowing the designer or the product, and whether the Electro Magnetic EM force "system" used is fixed or variable. I am assuming fixed. If the EM force is affected by changes in lp weight, then the heaver/thicker/taller lp will play on a a little lower plane due to the weight going against the electromagnetic force. This will even out things, and the heavier lp will actually be at the same plane as with the lighter thinner lp. Make sense ? If this is indeed how it works, the tonearm on this table does not even need VTA adjustment, a clear advantage over a fixed platter. As far as center weights go; most I know use a center weight to tune resonances. That would appear to become a moot point as well with the levitation. The whole VTA topic is a fascinating physics discussion. We know that with all tonearms, except one..... due to a patented design, the VTF - (force) changes when you make VTA - (angle) changes. When audiophile friends actually analyze what is really happening for the first time, they are usually surprised. In my experience how often one needs to change VTA depends on two things. The stylus and listener (individual) type. Two records same thickness can have different cut angles. The cutting stylus lasts only hours and setting it up the same way each time is very difficult. I think Atmasphere can give us more details :^) Cheers |
