geoffkait,
Ok so we all knew the cup would fall. Moving on...
Can you tell me what happens if the velocity of an audio signal entering an amplifier leaves at a different velocity?
And if that can be plugged into your formulas, why wasn't this fixed a long time ago?
Why did it take decades for someone to notice the real problems? I'll tell you one of the reasons.
Because it is not in your text books. I thank God every day for keeping me out of college. I would be just as confused as you guys. Don't get me wrong - If you have seen my white paper you can see that I have done all my homework. It just looks different from your homework.
You can't argue with success.
Roger |
Roger wrote,
"Can you tell me what happens if the velocity of an audio signal entering an amplifier leaves at a different velocity?"
-- What happens when the audio signal from the speakers travels at different velocities to the listener depending on the room temperature?
"And if that can be plugged into your formulas, why wasn't this fixed a long time ago?"
-- You haven't shown there's a problem yet. The cup falling on the floor just didn't do it for me.
"Why did it take decades for someone to notice the real problems? I'll tell you one of the reasons. Because it is not in your text books. I thank God every day for keeping me out of college. I would be just as confused as you guys. Don't get me wrong - If you have seen my white paper you can see that I have done all my homework. It just looks different from your homework."
- You will have a uphill battle if your white paper has technical "issues." You might be onto something, who knows. But it's not necessarily a very convincing argument to claim off the bat that your logic or your research doesn't agree with (all) text books on the subject. There's nothing wrong with being self taught, not necessarily.
"You can't argue with success."
- That's what they said about cold fusion.
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dracule1 wrote...
I doubt anyone can claim their stuff is neutral.
This has been the case for many years. What happens when something comes along that actually can perform as totally neutral? Can you predict the year in the future when all of these problems are behind us? That fateful day when problems with sound reproduction have been cured? The day when you feel like you are on the holodeck of the enterprise? That year is 2016 Roger |
The entire country of Switzerland is neutral, so I suggest all serious hifi listening should be done there. |
People can define 'neutral' in various ways. How about this (?): When a playback system reproduces music in such a way that it sounds like what the mastering engineer heard in his studio, then it is a neutral playback system. Surely, good equipment is up to the task.
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"The entire country of Switzerland is neutral, so I suggest all serious hifi listening should be done there."
I would suggest that since we won’t all have the opportunity in our lives to visit that idyllic land we should at a very minimum listen to the electronics manufactured there so we might gain greater insight into what the word "neutral" truly means.
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jmcgrogan2 said it all in the first reply. |
infection, jmcgrogan2 said...
I think that "neutral" is one of the most miss-understood and misused words in the audio hobby.
My impression of neutral is a sonic signature which does not emphasize the low or the high frequencies.
What happens if there is no sonic signature? Roger
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What happens if there is no sonic signature?
I did not say there was no sonic signature Roger. I said the neutral means to me that neither the high nor low frequencies are emphasized. There is a difference. Obviously everything presents a sonic signature, unless it presents no sound at all. Many folks call gear/cables/speakers "neutral" if they highlight the high frequencies, thereby giving the illusion of higher resolution. In my mind, emphasizing the high frequencies does NOT connote neutrality. Obviously YMMV. |
jmcgrogan2
I did not say there was no sonic signature Roger. I said the neutral means to me that neither the high nor low frequencies are emphasized. There is a difference. Yes I know you did not say there was no sonic signature. My point was what happens when there is no sonic signature? IOW most audiophiles can sit down in a blind test and listen to a "system" and say this sounds like a tube system or SS system (in some cases where there is both it might be tricky).
Obviously everything presents a sonic signature, unless it presents no sound at all.
It is possible to have no sonic signature and still have sound. The sonic signature represents a trace or finger print that is imposed on the music signal by the amplifying process. If you speak through a cardboard tube like you find in the center of a paper towels, it becomes obvious that the hollow modified sound of your voice was caused by the cardboard tube. That is its sonic signature and your ear-brain recognizes immediately what it is. Tube and transistor circuitry has come a long way but it still has audible traces of the process. It is due to low level distortion which are different for both circuit types. (that's why you can tell which is which). When there is no distortion (zero) there is no sonic signature and cannot be recognized as tubes or transistors. I don't know if you call that neutral or natural but I know it is desirable because it sounds "live". Any sonic signature gives your brain a clue that it is a reproduction. The only sonic signature at the concert hall is the sound of concert hall. Roger
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^^ of course, there is the issue of what is meant by 'zero distortion'.
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I'm a musician & it isn't necessarily the case that the signature of a live event is the venue. It depends which venue & it is possible to determine the 'quality' of the backline within a particular venue which would therefore be the signature of the performance with consideration to multiple artists performing in that venue. |
atmosphere
^^ of course, there is the issue of what is meant by 'zero distortion'.
I think it narrows down to obviously having ultra low or no harmonic distortion but more importantly it has to have the absence of dynamic phase errors that fall far below harmonic distortion measurements. Take for example ground loops and grounding in general. If you cue up your cartridge with the volume up and listen for noise (hum buzz etc.) it it is dead quite, it does not mean that you do not have a problem with ground loops. The problem caused by some ground loops show up when the music is playing. This is where electromagnetic broadcasts such as current running through your speaker cables can be picked up by a low Z loop that includes your IC's. The other problem is extremely low level hum (not audible) that is contaminating the phase angles of bass info between 60 to 120 hz. It dynamically modulates the presented image like a shake table. As a result, the velocity of the sound waves is modulated and the total presentation is perceived as a smear or out of focus. Amplifier errors in the area of phase distortion must be removed first.. Harmonic distortion only happens when the phase distortion is unchecked. If you kill the phase errors you kill harmonic distortion. That's zero distortion. Roger |
"^^ of course, there is the issue of what is meant by 'zero distortion'."
That's true and there is another related issue concerning whether "live" can actually be undistorted. |
geoffkait
Would you settle for whatever distortion you get in the concert hall during a live performance?
Its nothing but air which is a linear transfer medium.
If it did exactly the same thing in your home would you say "this is just like being there"? If not then some kind of distortion is happening at home and the alternative medium [electrical] transfer of sound waves does not match the purity of air.
It is a simple concept. Make the electronics act like air.
It requires that you match the velocity of air which is zero with no wind.
The sound waves velocity riding on top of a zero velocity (air) results in a single un-modulated constant speed of Mach One (about 750 mph)
When that happens you will not be able to tell them apart.
If music is traveling toward you in the hall at 750 mph why would you not want it to hit you in your living room at 750 mph? That is your proof that it is live.
If it deviates even a little (747 mph - 753 mph) it becomes a red flag to your brain and tells you it is not live.
This is no longer a theory.
Roger |
If you kill the phase errors you kill harmonic distortion. Hm. That's good work if you can get it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_distortionIn a nutshell though such is not the case, you have have harmonic distortion while at the same time having little or no phase distortion. They are not mutually exclusive. |
The difference is one is static phase error and one is dynamic phase error.
I am referring to dynamic phase error caused by the amplifying process.
If you have a dynamic speaker with tweeter, mid and bass drivers and they are time aligned (distance from you ear and delivering a coherent sound) and you add a shim under the back of the speaker stands so they are now tilted down slightly - you would still be able to hear the music but the coherency will be off by the same amount all the time. this is due to the physical maneuvering of the cabinets (mis-aligned). The tweeter is now somewhat closer to you and so the highs will now arrive too soon.
This is an example of a static phase error. if you had someone take your speakers and rocked them back and forth while you were listening - that would be dynamic phase errors. It is a process of modulation not tilt.
A tilted speaker still gives you a view of the soundstage (but from slightly different view)
A modulated speaker cabinet will cause the sounstage to blurr like a shake table. Under those conditions it is difficult to nail down where everything is.
Bottom line - even with perfect bolted down loudspeakers with good coherency they cannot project a stable image due to the dynamic modulation of the velocity fed to the speakers by an unstable amplifier.
90% of all system problems are from the electronic amplifiers.
10% is all the cables, power cords and magic pebbles.
Phase modulation is gross amounts of distortion since your entire perception of a live soundstage depends on objects not shifting around during the playback process. (like someone shaking you speakers)
It is literally the same thing as a photograph taken out of focus.
Remove the shaky nature of the display and everything is stable and in focus.
That can only happen inside the amplifier circuitry.
Roger
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I've heard speakers that you can pick up and move around and all the while the soundstage is perfectly focused. Not all speakers do that but some do. The first time I head that Mike Maloney was moving his Tesla loudspeakers around while I was in the listening chair during a dealer demo. The soundstage was very focused on that speaker. Since a set of our early amps was playing at the time, must be that we got that focus thing several decades ago. Bottom line - even with perfect bolted down loudspeakers with good
coherency they cannot project a stable image due to the dynamic
modulation of the velocity fed to the speakers by an unstable amplifier. It must be that its all in the setup. I've yet to hear a functioning amplifier than can't project a stable image. |
I've yet to hear a functioning amplifier than can't project a stable image.
I think it is a matter of how stable and how focused compared to live. It takes a tremendous amount of discipline and control during the amplifying process to not tamper with the delicate location information streamed to you via the sound waves. Most high end systems do get it right except it does not approach what you need to have your brain latch onto what appears to be an actual live event. You may be able to hear what seems like a clear image of someone playing a violin and perhaps where he is standing but it does not compare to being able to hear and perceive gestures like those caused by the actual playing and bowing movements. That kind of detail was normally available only if you attended the performance. Once you hear the difference between high end systems and actual "live" sound reproduction it becomes obvious that it is not even close. Its a whole different experience. After listening for some time under those conditions - the typical high end system sounds distorted for the first time. Because of some legal things that are happening I cannot tell you what I have done to make this happen but I do have auto-focus circuitry that totally stabilizes the venue. It is similar to the "Steadi-cam" system used in motion pictures to remove vibration from the optical image. It is impossible to obtain massive resolution and focus without the stabilization technique in place. I had to understand the effects of the burn-in process because it did contaminate the auto-focus circuitry. The good news is that when it is burned-in the contamination goes away. It is the non-symmetrical charge/discharge rate of a component that still has forming current in the equation. This causes the component to have 2 separate impedance values depending on charge or discharge. The forming current is typically added to the charge direction but not always. Moving equipment between power sources triggers some additional break-in. If you take your gear to someone else's house and set it up with a slightly lower power line voltage than your house - the main filter caps will attempt to re-form in the downward direction. If the power line is slightly higher it will require more forming current until it finishes. Focus can only be achieved in the absence of break-in. Roger |
My setup sounds like live from most any perspective in the room. That's exactly what I was shooting for
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mapman,
It sounds like it is well broken in and probably tubes - yes?
Finding a way to match the good attributes of tubes is difficult in SS but not impossible. Most SS gear cannot do it. Class A does not guarantee perfection.
Roger |
Preamp is tube. Amp is Class D.
I also have class D integrated with similar performance in that area. Speakers room acoustics and setup has a lot to do with it.
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Actually that is a good combo. |
Mapman
If you dont mind my asking who makes the class D amp?
Roger |
Bel Canto ref1000m amps.
Integrated amp in second system is Bel Canto c5i
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Roger wrote,
"geoffkait
Would you settle for whatever distortion you get in the concert hall during a live performance?
Its nothing but air which is a linear transfer medium.
If it did exactly the same thing in your home would you say "this is just like being there"? If not then some kind of distortion is happening at home and the alternative medium [electrical] transfer of sound waves does not match the purity of air.
It is a simple concept. Make the electronics act like air.
It requires that you match the velocity of air which is zero with no wind.
The sound waves velocity riding on top of a zero velocity (air) results in a single un-modulated constant speed of Mach One (about 750 mph)
When that happens you will not be able to tell them apart."
This is no longer a theory."
The problem with your argument is that there are many other sources of distortion in the home audio system other than the amplifier; thus, even though you might have solved this particular problem in an audio amplifier, I still cannot say to myself, "This is live." It is a logical fallacy that one can automatically achieve audio nirvana using an ideal amplifier, assuming for a moment that is what yours is. Things are just not that simple. There are distortions associated with speakers, with room acoustics anomalies such as slap echo, standing waves, reflected waves, with the effects of seismic vibration, the effects of mechanical vibration of motors, transforrmers, etc., the effects of static electric fields on the CD or LP and cables, the effects of induced magnetic fields in the wires and cables, the very large induced magnetic fields in large honking transformers, distortions resulting from wire and cable and fuses being installed in the wrong direction, distortions due to local environmental influences (Morphic fields), improper speaker set up, not to mention weather effects, sun spots effects, time of day effects. In other words in order to achieve "live" the audiophile who is attempting to get into audio nirvana must pay attention to everything, not just the speed of acoustic waves in air.
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geoffkait
It is a logical fallacy that one can
automatically achieve audio nirvana using an ideal amplifier, assuming for a
moment that is what yours is. Things are just not that simple
Your
right things are not that simple. This is why it took 25 years of intense
research targeting one problem - distortion in AUDIO amplifiers.
No one else has come close to a full understanding of the amplifying process
used specifically for signals in the audio spectrum. Amplifiers used for radio,
video, uhf, microwave etc. do not have to deal with delivering analog data from
a different medium. Audio amplifiers require the total package that must
include velocity. The signal has to return back to sound waves in your home. It cannot be done in an environment where the velocity is unchecked.
Try
to remember back in the day when you may have went from a mid-fi Kenwood or Sansui
receiver to your first real audiophile gear (most likely tubes) and what a
stark day and night difference it made. For you It was a whole new world of audio. Finally
it sounded like real music.
Then
there was the horror of new digital (CD’s) on the scene and all it did was give
you stress and was not anything like a good analog front end. (I'm sure most of you will say it is still the case)
Look
at how difficult it was for me to explain the [fact] that there are 2 separate distinct
speeds happening in the amplifier.
1)
Electricity traveling at (speed of
light)
2)
Electrical signals representing
sound waves traveling at (750 mph) This
is nothing new – if the wave phenomenon could not “flow” through the hardware
at this speed you would not be able to use it for audio.
What
I have done is to guarantee the flow will be at exactly one constant speed or
velocity.
That
was no simple - It takes control at quantum levels to achieve this function.
If
the velocity is perfectly nailed down – you have emulated the properties of
air.
It
has never been done before. That’s why it is a breakthrough. That’s why when
you hear it in operation it is not recognizable as electrically delivered
sound.
All
it takes is for people to be open minded enough to learn something new that
directly impacts the world of entertainment.
Judge
for yourself [after] you hear what it does The worst skeptic is converted within seconds of exposure to this process. They may have no idea how it was done - but now know it obviously works. Roger |
I have moved the above comment over to "Has anyone heard..." thread. |
Sheesh are things really so dire? My stuff sounds great. Maybe on the bleeding edge.....
One thing never changes....worry about the things that matter that you can control, not those that do not as much and you can’t.
Obsessive compulsive audiophiles are fine. Someone has to worry about the outstanding details in a lab environment before something is ready for mass consumption.
Its just not me though. I spend my time listening and enjoying the music whenever I can.
I’m an east coaster and usually try to get to Capital Audiofest each summer. Always some nice finds there.
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I think it is a matter of how stable and how focused compared to live.
I recommend that you get a set of really good microphones (I use Neumann U-67s) and go out and make your own recordings. That's what I do (Canto General, which was produced on LP and CD, is one of my first reference disks, produced in 1986). Having been there at the recording site and having heard what the microphone feed did (and having heard many microphone feeds before and since), I can instantly if something is right or not. Having your own reference is really handy; how else are you to know if a recording is really sounding right? Stable and focused is no worries. |
I guess you can compare the difference between a photo taken with a 3 MP camera, a 5 MP camera etc.
What if you take a picture now with a 100 mega pixel camera?
They are all stable and focused but now you can see detail that only could have be seen in person.
My auto-focus uses quantum physics and is accurate to parts per trillion.
Semiconductor manufacturers do not make a device that can do this.
That's why I had to make my own devices.
Roger |
The analogy does not hold up.
Do you have a method of measuring the effect you describe?
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No doubt you can only reproduce what’s in the recording most all of which are flawed in some way, even the good live recordings which are the only ones relevant for comparing a live event to what you hear off a recording.
I find once your system is performing well, the recording is essentially always the biggest bottleneck by far in regards to sound quality or "like live".
You can’t reproduce what’s not there to start with.
In a lab experiment like Atmasphere’s with ultimate care in recording and playback, only then is one in a position to be talking about anything approaching zero distortion or perfection.
With the best live recordings I know of like teh best from Mercury Living Presence, Dorian or Mapleshade most good systems should sound like being there. Even my somewhat modest rigs do. I’m sure if I was at teh live performance recorded, with same perspective as the mikes, which alone is not likely, I might notice some differences. But why should that matter? They are ALL recordings. Flawed and/or limited representations of real life. Some might be like a high res photo and some like abstract Picassos, some even just a total disaster like DT might say. What matters is the illusion of a live recording. That happens with most any decent recording in a good setup, even if produced in a studio.
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I'd say the neutral and balanced-labelled equipment has become a tool for sales guys to pitch us some low-end stuff. Maybe not.
I can honestly say I can't distinguish a neutral or balanced sounding mix unless i listen to what an unbalanced mix is.
Well, I can say that my rule of thumb for getting the right kind of equipment would be to trust my ears and what details it would love to hear. |
nootral? i know how to hear natural: I can record my guitar, accordion or beat box and if it sounds same in the same room via speakers than it's natural or maybe nootral.
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One can assume a very generic definition of neutral in regards to sound and say that if it generally sounds like the real thing its neutral whereas if not it has some unique aspect to the sound, FBOFW. Vanilla ice cream versus other flavors essentially. More people like vanilla but some like other flavors. Most people recognize vanilla.
Not much more to it practically than this I think. Neutral is generally the norm. Still some variation possible and still be judged "neutral". Anything else is more an acquired taste. Different strokes....
So its a very generic term that is useful but not sufficient alone for people like audiophiles that must obsess on details of everything.
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geoffkait,
Things are just not that simple. There are distortions associated with speakers, with room acoustics anomalies such as slap echo, standing waves, reflected waves, with the effects of seismic vibration, the effects of mechanical vibration of motors, transforrmers, etc., the effects of static electric fields on the CD or LP and cables, the effects of induced magnetic fields in the wires and cables, the very large induced magnetic fields in large honking transformers, distortions resulting from wire and cable and fuses being installed in the wrong direction, distortions due to local environmental influences (Morphic fields), improper speaker set up, not to mention weather effects, sun spots effects, time of day effects. In other words in order to achieve "live" the audiophile who is attempting to get into audio nirvana must pay attention to everything, not just the speed of acoustic waves in air. All of this is true except if the last reference - "not just the speed of waves in air" is not dealt with your system will never produce live no matter how much control you have over the vibrations. The velocity has to be right or you are wasting your time. |
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atmasphere
What velocity?
The speed of acoustic waves in air is the most important aspect of sound reproduction to get right. It alone is responsible for the most destructive damage done to sound reproduction. There is no alternative way to create the illusion of live. Assuming you have almost everything to do with vibrations under control - what is left represents at least 70% of your systems remaining distortion. Knowing where to look is half the battle. You can talk about amplifiers all day long but if you expect to use it for audio you must address the delivery speed otherwise it falls short every time. |
The live reference conundrum remains interesting to me. Orchestral (not miked) music live as a reference should make you think about what an instrument does…a violin is omni directional but mostly up, and unless the violinist is chained to one spot and can only move the bow and fingering bits…and NOT move around (there goes that pesky phase coherency issue) especially relative to the other people who may be playing something at the same time all over the stage, you get some crazy sonic character to ponder. The fact that great mikes can capture more or less what your ears might hear (if your seat is suspended 15 feet above the orchestra), is good news. To get anything like the live mojo out of yer tweets and woofs is doable, but still…it's nothing like live and maybe that's not so bad. Most people get that…is watching play on a high def TV like live actors in your house? Of course not (note that live actors are often difficult to get OUT of your house…trust me), but it can still be friggin' great…I have a Britten LP with old Ben conducting and man the passion and vibe get through big time, even though the velocity may be skewed (!). Don't forget, that $90 fuse takes a month to break in and you might have put it in backwards in the first place and you're going to have to remember what your rig sounded like a month ago…daunting... |
wolf there are some among us apparently who can do all that with confidence. The "X-Men" of audio per-se? :^)
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Roger wrote,
(Geoff) "Things are just not that simple. There are distortions associated with speakers, with room acoustics anomalies such as slap echo, standing waves, reflected waves, with the effects of seismic vibration, the effects of mechanical vibration of motors, transforrmers, etc., the effects of static electric fields on the CD or LP and cables, the effects of induced magnetic fields in the wires and cables, the very large induced magnetic fields in large honking transformers, distortions resulting from wire and cable and fuses being installed in the wrong direction, distortions due to local environmental influences (Morphic fields), improper speaker set up, not to mention weather effects, sun spots effects, time of day effects. In other words in order to achieve "live" the audiophile who is attempting to get into audio nirvana must pay attention to everything, not just the speed of acoustic waves in air."
(Roger) "All of this is true except if the last reference - "not just the speed of waves in air" is not dealt with your system will never produce live no matter how much control you have over the vibrations. The velocity has to be right or you are wasting your time."
Of course you would say that. That’s your bread and butter. That’s what they all say, the aftermarket fuse guys, the speaker manufacturers, the cable manufacturers. Audio nirvana can be yours if you just buy this product!
By the way, Nice of you to say everything on my list of distortion producers is all true. Actually I am a little surprised you agreed so quickly. You agreed to sun spots and Morphic fields? Lol
But I say, if you don’t take care of the rest of the producers of distortion, the ones I listed, it’s actually YOU who is wasting his time. You might be the missing link. But get in line. There are a lot of missing links in this hobby.
No man is an island. He's a peninsula.
Cheerios
geoff kait
machina dynamica
advanced audio conceits
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wolf_garcia
To get anything like the live mojo out of yer tweets and woofs is doable, but still…it's nothing like live.. .Why is that? |
Wolf, get some good omni/radial speakers and problem solved.
I've heard Decware radials work well with tube amps.
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The speed of acoustic waves in air is the most important aspect of sound reproduction to get right. Are you suggesting that a circuit can change the speed of sound through air? Or are you meaning something else? |
The Fasten Seat Belts sign just can on.
;-) |
Houston we have a problem. Most recordings, including many of the ones audiophiles cherish, actually invert polarity. Who cares if the velocity of air in the recording venture is maintained by the time the recording is played in the listening room. Who cares if the velocity of air is maintained if the trumpet sounds like the musician is sucking instead of blowing? Hel-ooooo! Even many or most of the recordings audiophiles REALLY cherish are out of polarity. You know the ones I’m talking about, Mercury Living Presence, Deutsche Gramophone, Proprius, Columbia Kind of Blue, Opus 3 Depth of Image, in that vein.
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That's just a flip of a switch with our MP-1 or MP-3. Actually the number of inverted recordings is more like 50%.
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I have a polarity switch on my DAC…it is generally (or always) ignored, and great sounding recordings are great sounding…period. I do bristle when gasbags tell me something sounds wrong when I think it sounds right, and there is nothing quite as pretentious as pretention…recording venture indeed. "Velocity of air" is a generally meaningless term as far as audio is concerned (sound waves pass THROUGH the air, makes waves in it, and thus exist) although there is seemingly no shortage of gas velocity generated by obfuscation and condescension. The sound of gas escaping the bag…blaaaat…. |
Its interesting that phase inversion tricks often result in most "holographic" recordings.
There have been various gadgets over the years that add this in some form. I had a Omnisonic Imaging device many years ago, also a pre-amp with Carver sonic holography, and a yamaha dsp with various effects.
Al these gadgets worked to various extents when used properly and things set up right.
But when the basics are working and set up right, no such trickery is needed, unless one seeks something more extreme than natural. Some people want that. Some don’t. I want natural not unnatural. The recordings are what they are (we have no control over how made) so ignorance can be bliss there.
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