I posted several months ago seeking recommendations for hi-rez, highly focused power cords in the tradition of the TG Audio Silver but with greater warmth or body. I did acquire a pair of Fusion Audio Enchanters and a VD Nite Platinum from the responses to my inquiry. However, after changes in amps, cd player, interconnects, and new Porter Ports, I find myself in need of advice again on the same matter. My system presently is: A Consonance Droplet 5.0 run directly into a Wyred 4 Sound ST 500 driving a pair of custom Legacy Focus clones using Eton drivers/midbass, metal dome mids & tweeters/NHT woofers. Both components are plugged into a PS Audio P 600 equipped with Porter Ports. I have an Enchanter plugged into both the power regenerator and the CDP and a Wolff Gain with Oyaide Palladium/Gold plugs on the amp. Interconnects (balanced) are either Sunny Cables 1000's or Jungson Golden Dragons. Speaker cables are Anti-Cables which I run directly into the speakers/crossovers bypassing binding posts.
My system is very detailed with very good focus and staggering dynamics. With good recordings, all is well and I'm quite satisfied. However, on some (many) recordings, horns, piano, and some guitar can some across aggressively. It has been recommended I replace the Oyaide plugs. Perhaps I will. What I would like are some recommendations on hi-rez, highly focused power cords that are to the laid back and warm side. I really liked the VD Nite Platinum but, it was too upfront for my system. Price is a factor in that I would like to spend $600 or less on the used market. Thanks in advance.
Hi Martennis: You might try the Spectron amp with "Sensing Speaker Cables" This class D amp is set apart from all others. developed by the famous John Ulrick. These amps operate at the speed of light, and will blow away any other Class D and almost anything else out there.
Hello Lcherepkai: That same Virtual Dynamics site has a Salon area where they show various tweaks and cable building techniques. There is a complete segment on tightening and replacing the Woofer screws, and the reasons why. This is a very informative site. Link below.
Hi Martennis: There is one cord that will probably fit your requirements. The power cord by David Elrod is about the best I have ever heard. The original cost of this cord is around 5K, which is beyond the means of normal mortals! however, you will find them, (Rarely) on Audiogon. Previously Owned cords will sell for 1K to $1400, still very expensive! I believe that if you invest in one of David's miracle PC's, you will never feel the need to upgrade it. It is that good. I think I know what you are after. Terms like laid Back, focus, haze and clarification are buzz words first initiated by all those tech writers describing and evaluating gear. To put in Lay terms. I think we want clean clear sound with clean layered bass. If you attain the upper and lower registers you seek, the all important midrange should fall into place. I feel that with the proper synergy between components and connecting wire, "Laid Back" along with high definition is attainable. Very often when one perceives a bright presentation, it may be the result of IM distortion. something as simple as stranded wire, delivering the signal nano seconds apart. the resulting output sounds like shrill treble, however is distortion that fatigues the ears. You might try building one yourself, it isn't difficult. With oynaid ends, you can build a very good cable for $150 that would retail for $500 to $1000. Virtual Dynamics has some wonderful instruction videos on the subject. take a peek. Very good luck to you. Best/ DR Cervantes
Sns---A fellow A'goner may do the crossover upgrades though I couldn't possibly afford the kind of caps you mention. I'm certainly out of my league when it comes to $1000 caps. Since I put an Oyaide R1 in the wall and run my power conditioner from there, I hear practically NO bite. I had to play Harry Belafonte's Greatest Hits on CD to make my system bite (if you have this disc, then you know how EXTREMELY bright some of the tracks are). I hope the more affordable cap upgrade will improve focus and maybe bring out a little more detail. But, for all purposes, my problem is fixed. All who offered actual help, recommendations, or advice, thanks so much!
The only reasonable cost way your going to upgrade the crossovers is to either change out the capacitors yourself, or find a local tech to change them out. Speaker crossovers aren't dangerous from a voltage standpoint so you could change them out safely. If you're handy with a soldering gun (which I assumed having a DIY design speaker)do it yourself.
To keep costs down I would only change out the tweeter caps to start with (maybe the mids as well). Boutique caps cost, how much depends on values. I would expect caps alone would cost anywhere from $100 to maybe 1k, all depends on values, cap chosen and who does it. To do all my Merlin caps with Duelunds will end up costing somewhere around 2.5k, well worth the money in my estimation.
Rfogel8---If I came across as offended, sorry. I can be rather direct but I wasn't offended; perhaps frustrated though. These speakers replaced a pair of Von Schweikert VR 4 Gen II's and, after I lined them with Dynamat (damping) and wired them internally with Anti-cables, they've been better in almost every way (the VR 4's had a tighter image though much smaller). I was driving the mid-bass, mids, & tweeters with an 805/300B tube amp and the woofers with a Consonance Calaf (bad reputation but excellent bass) and the source was a Consoance SACD 2.0. The sound was warm and full-bodied though not quite so extended on top and certainly lower rez. I gave up the tube amp because the heat was a killer and I couldn't possibly waste that kind of money on tubes again. I know these speakers can do magic. I've heard it.
I don't believe my components are a bad match either. It may just take a little more work to get "there". Changing cables, plugs, and outlets is easy. I'd much rather ship these cross country than components. I'm not really spending much on them either as I usually sell what doesn't work and buy something of similar price (although this economy has made that difficult) and the $100 I spent on the Oyaide R1 was a minimal investment which, as I indicated in a previous post, has taken me about 80%+ toward where I wanted to go. I may try the Oyaide M1/F1 plugs and see if that finishes my work (for now!!!)
Tvad is right about lasagna. My recipe is just a little more work than yours. Thanks and enjoy.
I would really like to upgrade the crossovers. It's been on my "to do" list for quite some time. I even shipped them up to Meniscus Audio a couple years back and they said they were just fine the way they were. That doesn't inspire me. Perhaps one of you know a good and affordable shop or individual who would be interested in upgrading my crossovers. Also, could someone take a rough guess as to what it would cost? The speakers are 4-way, six-driver. If possible, try to give me a best case/worst case scenario. Thanks!
Lcherepkai, No, I really don't take issue with cables as tone controls to "sculpt" the sound. I personally find them quite necessary to bring out the best in a system and look at them as a means to do a little fine tuning. That is, after putting together components and speakers that already work reasonably well together no matter what cables are used.
Some components and/or speakers may never sound good, no matter what cable you throw at them. Changing a wall outlet or the end of a power cord strikes me as something akin to grabbing at straws.
Sorry to offend but after reading your trials and tribulations with power cords, plugs and wall sockets, hoping to tame aggressive sound, I can't help but think you're spending your money, and lot's of it, on the wrong things.
Bob is on to something. If you really want the best cap in those crossovers try the Duelund VSF copper foil caps, be prepared to be blown away by the naturalness! No other cap I've tried comes close to these, two sets in my Merlins which use a highly transparent/resolution tweeter, absolutely amazing!
For all those unaware, Duelund has just come out with a high voltage cap for electronics. I may eventually change out all my caps for these. Won't be cheap!
Perhaps you might want to take a closer look at your crossover in the speakers. Perhaps a cap change in the tweeter to something with a gentler disposition might be the uptimate answer. Something like a Mundorf Silver and Oil might smooth it out without losing any transparency.
Rfogel8----I'm in total agreement with you that the metal dome mids & tweeters exacerbate brightness in recordings. I don't believe either the PS Audio P-600, Wyred4Sound ST-500, or Consonance Droplet are bright themselves. I believe my system allows brightness nowhere to hide. I'm sure the speakers are the culprit but, they can be so revealing that many others seem veiled in comparison. They are also too big to get rid of without considerable effort and, I LIKE THEM. It just takes more effort to get them to behave as I wish.
As to the comment of cords/cables as bandaids or tone controls. so? Aside from the ideal of neutralality, what isn't a tone control? Where you sit to listen and even your mood is, to a certain extent, a tone control. Call them whatever you wish but cables are as valid a method to sculpt your sound as your component choices. Do you take issue with using cables this way? Thank you.
Update---I wanted to try a gold plated outlet to see if it would take some of the edge out of my system (only presents itself on some "hot" recordings with certain instruments) and found a SWO-GX and and R1 from Oyaide used here on A'gon. The GX pushed the soundstage forward and made the problem worse. However, the R1 has made a significant improvement. Soundstaging distance is about midway between the slightly laid-back Porter Port and the upfront Oyaide SWO GX. Detail is excellent as is tone with a relaxed feel that has taken 80-90% of the bite out of my system. I'm still going to install either a KS Emotion or Purist Dominus pc soon. Thanks for the advice!
The power conditioner feeds the most components, try there first.
I'm also not sure the Oyaide SWO GX is going to give you the more recessed soundstage you want. All the Oyaide's are more forward sounding than the Porter Ports in my system. You want laid back, natural, the Porter Ports are it. The Oyaide GX will be warmer tonally than the other Oyaides, this may be what you're looking for.
Well, I'm waiting on an Oyaide SWO GX (gold plated outlet) to arrive and see if that takes the edge out of my system. If not, I'll probably acquire either/both a Kubala Emotion and/or a Purist Dominus. My system consists of a CDP, an amp, and a power regenerator. Where would it be best to install either cable? Thanks all----------Lyle
Casouza----You're right about the speaker cables. I only use these (and I use the smaller gauge anti-cables) so I can bypass the binding posts on my speakers (I don't have any presently) and connect directly to the crossovers. Originally, I had the crossovers pulled out and I ran anti cables from each driver out of the speaker to the crossovers located behind my amp and I had these connected with Electraglide Silver Ribbon speaker cable (Goertz Silver ribbons). That certainly sounded better but the EG cables were quite short. Eventually, I would like to install a couple pairs of Eichman binding posts and then go after better speaker cables but that is a long term project. For the moment, this is the best, temporary fix. I'll probably upgrade the crossovers at that time. Oh, this is a never ending battle isn't it? I have had Kimber 4TC before and I like the anti-cables better. I think they have better detail and are more palpable. Still, you're right about upgrading this weak link. Thanks.--Lyle
Lyle, taking a closer look at your system it seems to me (IMHO) that the weak links regarding midrange forwardness could be the anti-cables (great for the price but outclassed in your system, IMO) and the metal dome speakers. In general, solid core cables made of a single gauge have a "preferred" range of frequencies where they deliver the most dynamics. That's why better louspeaker cables use multiple conductors and multiple gauges in order to spread-out the "spotlight" frequencies. Since you can not easily change the metal speakers, I suggest that you try better speaker cables (I like Van den hul Inspiration, VDH Supernova and Tara Labs Air, Kimber 8TC if budget is a concern) and a Fusion Enchanter CU power cord. The copper-based PC plus "musical"speaker cables will nicelly flll-in the lower-midrange and make your system more even-handed from upper bass to upper midrange, you will hear a less forward/fatiguing midrange presentation. I hope this helps
Anyone (with good feedback) want to do a cable swap? I'd be interested in a 3'-6' Emotion or Dominus for a 4' or 5' Fusion Audio Enchanter. I may include some cash toward the Dominus. Thanks-------Lyle
It sounds to me that you are looking at a K-S Emotion or a PAD Aqueous Anniversary or Dominus cord. Both of these are laid back and relaxed. IMHO the Emotion sounds a tad more 'natural' harmonically, while the PAD cords will offer a tad more bass.
I just checked out your amp, not familiar with it previously. It appears to use Wima and Muse electrolytic caps, those are good electrolytics, sill not up to good film caps. Wyred 4 Sound (Cullen circuits) does mods, check with them for possible upgrades in caps.
I also can't imagine that amp being responsible for the majority of your problem. ICE based amps are realatively warm, not biting. Could be your speakers, specifically those Eton metal dome tweeters.
Tvad has the ratings correct. Funny you should mention image sharpness and ambience. I recently replaced the MIT PPMFX capacitors in my Joule Electra preamp with Jantzen Z-Superior caps. While I am hearing improvements in all sonic parameters, image focus and ambience are absolutely astounding after this change!
Many cheap caps sound smeared and hard, quality caps reduce this by a much greater amount than cables, tubes and other tweaks IMO. If you are willing to change out the caps this may be your answer, this may also cost much less than all the cable changes.
Sns & Tvad----If I could trouble both of you one more time, please. I "need" a more relaxed cord or laid back in a perspective sense to take the edge/bite out of the mids on some horns, piano,......but what really gets me into the sound experience is a highly focused soundstage where I can clearly identify the individual sounds both instrumental and ambient including the air of the recording venue. I use the TG Audio Silver as a reference for this quality as it presents sounds very vividly in my system. However, that's all that it did right in my system. Still, that experience has left me wanting that quality in all my cables. How highly would you rate the VH Audio Airsine, the Kubala Emotion, and the PAD Museaus and Dominus cords with regards to focus of the image or sharpness of image outlines? Thanks so much for taking the time to help me out.------Lyle
I just received an email with the word "LESSLOSS' and nothing else. Anyone want to offer an opinion on this power cord within the context I've previously mentioned? Thanks. Lyle
Hi Tvad-----Read a little on the Emotion and sounds promising and not too expensive. A couple questions: would you characterize the sound as relaxed? Also, how would you characterize the soundstage? laidback, neutral, or forward. I need something to the relaxed/laidback side. Does the emotion fit the bill? Thanks for your input Tvad.------Lyle
i think the ideal would be to "tune" one's system to achieve a balance between resolution and warmth. as i understand, warmth implies some attenuation in the upper midrange/treble region coupled with a slight (?) peak in the upper bass/lower midrange region. any deviation in frequency response does detract from resolution.
however, a stereo system can be sufficiently resolved and yet have some color. does this make sense ?
now, finding a power cord to accomplish this is indeed difficult. i could not recommend one because i have not experienced a line cord which is subtractive and additive at the same time.
Hey folks---just heard from Virtual Dynamics and they recommended I simply tighten all the screws/bolts on my drivers and, you know what, that took a significant amount of bite out of my system. I'm still interested in that laid back or relaxed, warm, highly focused, hi-rez power cord that I started this thread with but, I'm a little less motivated now. If there are no more recommendations, I would like to thank all who have offered REAL and WORTHWHILE advice and alternatives. It's so nice to have such helpful audiophiles offer up their experience rather than combing through dozens of reviews hoping to find the right cable or piece of equipment. Thanks again to all. Lyle Cherepkai
The Dominus is relaxed for sure, laid back, I'm not sure what you mean by that term, I think of laid back and relaxed as the same thing. If you mean laid back soundstaging, I would say a neutral depth of soundstage.
I would pull the Oyaides for sure, they make a large soundstaging difference in my setup. The Porter Ports should diminish that forward sound you speak of. They won't really take the bite away, however, sounds like a tonality issue, IC's and speaker cables make more differnce here.
Almost forgot, the VH Audio AirSine power cords also provide the sound you're looking for, warm, relaxed and top flight resolution, these are my preferred cable at the moment. These are also quite a deal compared to the higher line PAD cables.
I'm not familiar with your IC's. The anti-cables you're using on your speakers are certainly relaxed. Have you tried these as IC's, could be just what you need.
Would you consider the DNM's comparable with regards to detail/resolution and image focus?
Unfortunately, the best answer I can give is it depends.
It's a synergy thing that will vary from configuration to configuration I have found, so no way to know for sure without trying.
They are a very minimalist design in regards to materials used though and therefore easy and inexpensive to try.
Do the DNM's come balanced?
No, not that I am aware of.
Here is a link to some commentary on these that I think is a fair assessment:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/3cables.html
In general they work best I have found in situations where the music has a bit of an edge in the mid to upper ranges that needs to be taken off for whatever reason. The other ICs I use (Harmonic tech and MIT) are more likely to draw attention to the same.
SNS----Would you consider the Dominus laid back or relaxed? The metal dome mids only seem to bite when the mids are pushed forward in the mix (and recorded a bit to the hot side already). I have a lateral mosfet amp with a laid back midrange and this amp never seems to bite but, it lacks the resolution of the Wyred ST 500. It works well in the A/V room. Would you try pulling the Oyaides before going on this cable quest? If so, what plugs would you go with to maintain the resolution and focus as much as possible while allowing the sound to "relax" a bit? Thanks so much SNS------Lyle
Mapman---I can take most of the edge off using Golden Dragon interconnects but they loose a significant amount inner detail and focus to the Sunny Cable DX 1000's. The Sunny's remind me of Nordost Quattro Fil but with more extension on top and a fuller & richer midrange. I love the inner detail and image focus these cables bring to the mix. Would you consider the DNM's comparable with regards to detail/resolution and image focus? Do the DNM's come balanced? Thanks Mapman.-----------Lyle
While I still think finding one cable that is both maximally focused and detailed and consequently maximally warm and laid back an impossibility (this would be the perfect cable!), I do think you can achieve this system wide. A cable may be able to help you here.
I now understand Lcherepkai is trying to acheive this sonic signature system wise. I would second Samhar, the PAD cables are both warm and detailed, not so focused, the Dominus being the best I've tried in the line, the Ferox version would likely be your best choice, the Museus and Venustas could also work.
And yes, I've found the Oyaide's to be forward sounding in my system. The Porter Ports are more laid back, more distant soundstaging.
An easy and cheap thing to try with low risk might be a DNM Reson IC between CD and amp.
I've used these effectively in the past to help take the edge off digital compared to Harmonic Technology Truth Link and MIT ICs, for example. They have that warmer, mellow, and refined "british" sound to them compared to most cables.
They can be had for well under $100 even new usually. If you didn't like them , you could sell them or hold them for future application if/when a change is needed without taking a big hit.
Might just be the inexpensive ingredient needed to add to the "soup" to make it taste just right!
Lcherepkai, I'm using the Superconductor 2 and FX ICs, Superconductor Petite bi-wire speaker cables and the AC and Digital power cords and have not noticed any loss of focus. Actually, I have quite a pit of focus without being overly analytical. I've tried cables from Kimber, Tara, Synergistic, Silver Audio, Harmonic and a few others and find the JPS the best match for my all tube system. The Kaptivators are a bit pricey for me.
Sorry for the rant MR T, you have two people who's opinions I respect agreeing with you. I think in this instance "laid back" is used to describe the soundstage presentation not the sound. Like I said if you haven't had this problem then it may seem like a contradiction but in real world experiences (bad) it makes perfect sense.
"My only complaint is some bite on midrange forward instruments like some horns and piano on SOME recordings. Do you feel the Kaplans would be a good choice to tame this effect?"
All I can tell you is what the Kaplan cords did for my system. As others have said, your mileage may vary. I found that on certain recordings my top end seemed a bit screechy and forward. It seemed to be very open and detailed otherwise, and was very good on good recordings. I put a Kaplan copper cord on my DAC and on my Amp and that screetchiness is now gone. The music is detailed and flowing and the bit of grunge that I heard is now gone.
As a bonus I also found there was more openness and air now than before. I thought it was open before, but the cords improved that aspect even more. It sounds cliche, but I now heard what I didn't know was missing before.
Good luck with your search, but you will never know for sure unless you try different cords in your rig and hear them for yourself.
Evidently you aren't familiar with the sound we are discussing (lucky you!) or semantics wouldn't need to enter into the discussion deviating away from the OP's post and into some quadrant of your mind.
"i think the terms, "warm", "laid back", "hi rez" and "focus", need to be defined. i sense a combination of a desire for accuracy (focus) and coloration (warmth). such a combination is indeed not possible."
one of the problems with using adjectives is that they may be open ended, lacking precision.
such words have no universally accepted definition.
experience of sound is so subjective that there is likely to be disagreement as to whether or not a prpduct can be described in a certain way.
i think the terms, "warm", "laid back", "hi rez" and "focus", need to be defined. i sense a combination of a desire for accuracy (focus) and coloration (warmth). such a combination is indeed not possible.
Hi, I have a PAD Aqueous Anniversary on the Calypso and thought it might not be what I'm looking for with the CDP's (maybe a little to big a presentation), the CD3 MKll is back in the system with the Calypso . The Musaeus had a similar effect with the CD3 MKll but to a slightly lesser degree. I'll get another Aqueous Anniversary P/C for comparison but I think I've got It right for now. FWIW I didn't expect the effect to be as big as it is and 180* from the VD David 2.0. I have used the VD in three different systems and it had a similar effects on all three, overly dynamic, big separations within the soundstage,fast attack fast decay and a little bright and thin.
A1 I don't know if a different power cord is THE solution but, I know that's where I'm willing to look first. I could change any component or cable and get closer or further to/from my ideal. All the variables you mention are certainly valid but I want to do something and I think moving around power cords is the easiest way given the satisfaction I feel with my other components/cables. I'm also open to trying a gold plated outlet or pulling the Oyaide palladium/golds and trying something else. I not the DIY type though so that option is less appealing. I think I'll see where this thread goes before I pursue that option. Thanks.
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