Need some turntable guidance

I’d like to "modernize" my system a little bit, but as a record collector, my initial focus is on the turntable. I’ve been looking around, and seems I have several options.

As a record collector you have to focus on your stylus profile if you don’t want to ruin your collection, make sure the stylus is not worn yet, replace your Grado with new stylus. You can’t do that with Supex (only re-tipping). Turntable just rotate your record on the platter and if you don’t have any issues with speed stability then focus on cartridges - this is the most important. This is where you can get huge improvement that anyone can notice. With new stylus on old cartridge (or completely new cartridge) you will get much better sound.

I bought the Supex cartridge as NOS a few months before I stored the system, and looking at it under a microscope, it looks fine.  The Grado does not have a user replaceable stylus assembly, but it too looks good.

As for TT there are so many great directions...it would be hard to know where to start. Have you settled on belt-drive as your prefered drive method?
I don't have hands on experience with your PS audio preamp but putting resources into the phono pre is usually rewarding...
Nice system!

Thanks, solypsa.

I haven't really looked at direct drive tables, back in the day they were mostly lower end offerings.

The PS phono stage fed by the MC transformer with the PS preamp stage set to straightwire was quite good.  I think the Bryston amp may be a sonic weak link, as it can sound a bit harder than I like.

But for now I want try and deal with the table first, if it even needs dealing with.

I suggest

set it up again as is, find needed tools or get missing tools, rediscover your tt alignment skills,

listen to it

tt is about speed, I agree with chackster, no problem = no problem.

and if the suspension/bearing transmits vibration into/out of system. sounds like you know about this.

is your floor solid walking around? my floor is springy, my beloved thorens td24 amazing machined bearing very subject to vertical motion, not good, had to trade it.

my new to me jvc-victor very heavy plinth cl-p2, (dual arm) heavy TT81 direct drive spinner, plinth’s factory adjustable feet, still needs and sits successfully on isolation blocks, no problems approaching ...

not these, but similar

https://www.amazon.com/Turntable-Equipment-Tuneful-Cables-Audiophile/dp/B076DGD3X2/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=isolation+blocks&qid=1594745516&s=electronics&sr=1-3

elliottbnewcombjr ,

I'm in the course of setting it up.  The speed controller (vpi PLC) is dead, and I'm waiting to try and get schematics for it from VPI.  In the mean time, I did cobble together a DIY speed controller but my audio signal generator isn't great, I'm waiting on a new one to come in.  I can't bring myself to spend over a grand on an SDS or ADS and other syncronous motor speed controllers on the market won't provide enough current to drive the motor.

Right now the table is on a wall shelf.  Floor is carpeting over concrete (ground level basement).  I may build or buy a floor stand, but that's a question for later.  Either way, I know the current TT is sufficiently isolated.

Thanks for the link, those may work if I have issues with the Denon for any reason.

The only thing I would do is when your ready to get a new cartridge get one .You have great stuff ,enjoy .....

I only asked as both idler and dd offer some different qualities, I am however not making any sweeping 'this is best' statements. For 'dd vintage' chakster uses the excellent Luxman and elliotbnewcombjr mentions the also excellent Victor tt81 (which I have had and is excellent albeit perhaps not as reliable as some). There are some modern choices as well. Then there is the vintage idler direction ;)
Agreed you have nice stuff enjoy it! Also can easily imagine your comment re the Bryston to be a factor...

I bought the Supex cartridge as NOS a few months before I stored the system, and looking at it under a microscope, it looks fine. The Grado does not have a user replaceable stylus assembly, but it too looks good.

Then you're good.
Grado can do the replacement job when it's time.
Some Grado models have user replaceable stylus. 

I'm not giving TT advice, but I also have Apogee Duettas. Hope you love them as much as I do.

If possible keep everything and change the Bryston amp , its not bad but you can do better . I have a PS Audio 5.0 and its phono stage is very good so no problem there .

I luckily joined the forum, started learning about playing Mono lps with a real mono cartridge (definitely better), then decided I wanted to try a long arm, and wanted to get to quartz locked direct drive.

long and short of it led me to this large dual arm plinth, 1 arm mono cartridge or MC cartridge (SUT with bypass); long arm stereo, fixed cartridge.

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1SQJL_enUS881US881&sxsrf=ALeKk01z8qSpwytB1W4QD6B0AlagLefr8g:1594902892333&source=univ&tbm=isch&q=victor+cl-p2+plinth&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwif5-Si5NHqAhXSZTUKHSqDCaEQjJkEegQICxAB&biw=1707&bih=888#imgrc=hu6FokQZ0vOUpM

have a look at it's construction, not 4 layers glued, 3 special layers, total 7 layers, 70mm thick.

It's big, but smaller than two TT. Of course modern versions exist, I just feel so lucky to have joined the forum and the advice I have gotten here.

I used to use my McIntosh Mode switch to play 'Mono' mode using a stereo cartridge. I played an old (young Lois Armstrong among others) Jass LP. It was not very involving, more like a history lesson. Played it using my Grado Mono cartridge, behold, very involving music. Others are not as dramatic a change, but in all cases, mono lp sounds better. Starting ___? quality mics, recording machines, recording techniques were quite good before stereo, surprisingly good.

So, I never wanted a two arm table, but, to have Stereo and Mono cartridges mounted, calibrated, mix mono and stereo lps in a listening session at the instant turn of an input dial is fabulous. Just saying.

Sorry I kind of left the thread hang, but I had to deal with Uncle Sam's yearly extortion payoff.
solypsa:
I'm not into vintage for the sake of vintage, most of my stuff was fairly current when I bought it (been doing this a long time).  I wouldn't be looking to ditch the VPI for older DD or idler wheel tables.

chakster:
Thanks for the info.
  
richmos:
I love the duettas.  Since I acquired them in the 80's, I listened to a lot of speakers, and nothing I heard at (almost) any price compared, to my tastes at least.

mcmvm:

Yeah, I think I'm leaning in that direction.  The Bryston has served me well over the years including as a subwoofer amp for my home theater system, but with the Apogees, they sound a bit hard.

elliottbnewcombjr:

I have 4 arm tube assemblies for the ET2.5.  Swapping arm tube assemblies is simple once the cartridge is initially set up, so I have no need for additional arms.  I do have some mono records, including a bunch of 50's and 60's rock, jazz and some classical, and have thought about mono cartridges over the years. I even have a mono integrated tube amp still in storage that I was going to restore and use if I ever did get the mono cartridge.

The modern mono cartridge feeds the signal, (vertical vibrations totally ignored), to both channels, so it goes to a standard stereo phono input and your existing stereo amp. You get full room sound, dual mono, frequency balanced as you have already solved. 

So, using the mono amp might be fun, but not needed, and send the cartridge dual mono output where, how to a single mono amp, then to a single speaker? Unless you get a vintage single channel cartridge.

Not being critical of your idea, just letting you know my experience.

I have a pair of tube mono blocks (and spare), but far from integrated, they were made in 1958, so power switching, input switching, speaker out/in, all had to be independently solved. It was fun to have these 35 wpc tubes beat my 305 wpc McIntosh SS EVERY TIME! I sold the SS Preamp and Amp and got tube tuner/preamp from 1962 into modern integrated tube amp.

Another advantage of not using a stereo cartridge to play mono lps is that the grooves are different, and Mono cartridges are conical or elliptical, modern microline stylus are not 'right' for those grooves.

elliottbnewcombjr :

OK, so two channel mono (?) with a modern mono cartridge can be solved two ways:  One is a Y adapter, and the other is just use one channel off the cartridge and load the other with the recommended impedance.  The second method is probably preferable, as the differences between the two stereo parts of the chain could possibly introduce unwanted channel differences.  The one channel then stays mono straight to a single speaker.

I'd like to hear more about your DIY speed controller.  How did you do that?

xaak,

It's simple, really.

All you really need is a signal generator, and a way to amplify the signal to deliver 120 volts. Actually, between 60v and 130v is better because you can tune the voltage to provide adequate drive at the lowest motor vibration possible.

Keep in mind, this is for 120v synchronous motors only.

The signal generator is the easy part. You need to find one that provides adequate granularity so that small adjustments to the output frequency are possible, and it must output sine wave.  I have an old Leader signal generator that works OK for now.

The trickier part is amplifying the output of the signal generator so that it can output up to 130v @ roughly 10w (vpi motor needs 7.5 I think).  For this, I used a Kicker IX500.4 car stereo amp I had laying around and an old 15v laptop power supply (I never throw anything out :) ).  This easily allowed ouput in the range of I was looking for, to output 12w, a safety margin over the 7.5 needed for the motor.

So now I had to turn 5 to 7 volts into 120v.  Looking at my parts drawers,  I found a 6V center tapped line transformer, which normally turns 120v into 6v.  Reversing it and driving the secondary with 6v (not using the center tap), it turns 6v into around 120v.  Then I hooked the primary to a standard wall receptacle, and plugged the motor into the wall receptacle,

With the gain on the signal generator set to 0 and frequency set to 60hz, and the gain on the amp set to maybe 20%, I slowly increased the gain on the signal generator, while monitoring the voltage on a true RMS multi-meter until the platter started spinning.  It took a minimum of 75 volts to start the platter, and once started, it would maintain speed at anything over 60v.

There you have it.

I'm not into vintage for the sake of vintage, most of my stuff was fairly current when I bought it (been doing this a long time). I wouldn't be looking to ditch the VPI for older DD or idler wheel tables.

chakster:
Thanks for the info.

You're welcome. Let me assure you that any of those vintage turntables I have mentioned are much better than VPI or any modern belt-drive at this price. Technics SP 10 mkII, Luxman PD-444, Denon DP-80... those turntables are all HIGH-END direct drive and you will never find anything equal today in terms of price/performance. Garrard will cost more without being any better. 

When I mention any vintage gear (turntable or cartridges) in my posts i'm referring to the best turntables and best cartridges at certain price category TODAY (imo). Not because they are good looking or vintage, but only because they are better. 

You don't have to buy the latest gear when it comes to analog.
But you have to buy the latest gear when it comes to digital.

  

ctor

Yes, a Y connector works, and I have used them many times successfully over the years, even though purists make faces like they just smelled dog poop. I never have, or would mess with your impedance idea but you are more advanced than me.

You may be right, because playing the Grado 'dual mono' cartridge output thru both channels thru a pair of speakers does sometimes give a subtle illusion of location, not frequent, but it does occur, not disturbing, just huh? when you notice it, then you forget it, and just listen. Mono well recorded can be excellent and thoroughly involving.

My single mono amp hesitation is playing from only one speaker that is presumably near a corner of the room normally for stereo imaging and located precisely for room frequency balance. Mono Jazz LP's is frequent for me, a few of us in listening positions for imaging, i.e. Oscar Peterson, play this Stereo LP, then that Mono LP, back to Miles Davis Stereo, ... which is my frequent habit, and why I am truly enjoying the two arm large plinth solution.

When they knew Stereo LP was coming, before 1958 (tape went stereo in 1956), the big studios sent two separate teams, their accomplished mono recording team, get a session done, then a separate recording team of new Stereo whiz kids, repeat the whole process, costly for sure.

I read that Rudy Van Gelder observed this, couldn't afford double ..., so he decided to record in Stereo, and mix mono from that, and have the Stereo masters for the future. Clever Indeed.

chakster,

I'm listening to Eric Clapton Steppin' Out on Decca FFSS using my Denon DP-1250 with a Magnepan Unitrac 1 tonearm and a Grado Reference Platinum cartridge as I type this. I'm waiting on getting my spindle rewired from ET and some new belts for the VPI. It's a very satisfying combination, I'll grant you. The arm and table are certainly vintage though the cartridge is from the mid 90's.

On it's best day, with as perfect a setup I can muster, it never came close to what the VPI/ET2 could do with the same phono cartridge. IMHO and obviously your mileage does vary.

Thanks. That sounds easy enough that maybe even I can do it.

Your gear is mostly still extremely nice by today’s standards. You obviously put a lot of thought into system building. After checking into the condition of your styli (potentially upgrading to a new MC cartridge), I’d look hard at the PS Audio phono preamp - a $1K preamp from so many years ago should have numerous options today for significant improvement. It could absolutely be the weak link of your system.

I don’t know much about the TNT turntables and their versions. My dealer had one as his personal table for a while before upgrading to a Clearaudio innovation Master, and it seemed quite nice. I seem to recall reading some posts about such-and-such version / configuration being much better than this-or-that, so significant research is warranted before making any moves there. With VPI, newer does not necessarily mean better, so definitely proceed with caution. The ET 2.5 arm is quite nice, fortunately you don’t have to suffer with a VPI unipivot :) And I think Supexes were the basis for Koetsu cartridges so if in good running condition should be quite nice too?

mulveling, Thanks.

With the preamp, maybe, but using the Supex step-up transformer into the PS Audio, I never had reason to question it.  Now, maybe, but replacing the Bryston, which is the original generation 3b from the early 80's, would still be first on the list as far as electronics go.  There was much better available even 15 years ago when I had to put the system into storage, where trying new preamps back then really didn't give me a burning feeling I needed to upgrade.  Maybe after I get other things sorted out.

I never really looked back once I got the TNT, but I thought maybe enough time had passed that there might be something out there worth looking at today.

Yes, the Supex cartridge is exceptional.  When I bought it, I was running a Lyra Lydian.  I did some listening back and forth between the two, and the Supex stayed on the table until I had to store it.  I hope it still has the magic, I'll find out in a couple of weeks when I get my arm back from ET.

@ctor

Agree that perhaps it’s time to look at a newer amp to replace that Bryston. I think a lot of amp makers have made great strides in sound quality over the last 15-20 years, including Bryston themselves! Unfortunately the prices have gone up, up up too. I absolutely love my new VAC 200iQ mono amps, they sound like magic, but the price is up there in "firstborn" territory.

Yes, also agree a good SUT can make for an excellent half of the phono stage equation.

There was some interesting discussion a year ago - I forget where, here or audio asylum - on the pros/cons of inverted bearings. I think some of that was specifically around the VPI TNT tables. That would be good to peruse before making a decision there. You should also of course examine the condition of your existing bearing. Steve Leung of VAS (known for pretty intricate cartridge repair and manufacturing) has shared on his Facebook page photos specifically of VPI tables with extremely worn ball bearings that he’s repaired lately. Looked pretty scary, tbh. But if your bearing is damaged than a repair or replacement should make a huge improvement in playback for relatively low investment. I think Steve uses a TNT, actually. You might ask him for advice - he seems exceedingly knowledgeable.

From what I can tell, my bearing is in good shape, it's not the inverted type.  The old stethoscope test reveals it's dead quiet. And yes, I've started to research the newer inverted bearing and I've seen good and bad about it.

I looked up VAS, and it turns out that they're practically around the corner (well, an hour or so drive) so maybe I'll see about paying a visit when things loosen up a bit.

Thanks for the advice!

ctor

around the corner from VAS, well what a coincidence. Where are you?

Bill turned out to live in Burlington, NJ, I'm in Plainfield, NJ. Bill knows Steve well. Actually Bill is going to dress up as a masked man and come over today to hear my new and first MC cartridge, AT33PTG-II played thru my 'new to me' vintage SUT, Fidelity Research FRT-4.

It sounds fabulous.

VAS handles Cayin, I plan to take my Cayin AT88 Tube Amp to Steve, he will bias it (internally) while I wait. Later versions of Cayin's have external bias with meters.

I’m listening to Eric Clapton Steppin’ Out on Decca FFSS using my Denon DP-1250 with a Magnepan Unitrac 1 tonearm and a Grado Reference Platinum cartridge as I type this. I’m waiting on getting my spindle rewired from ET and some new belts for the VPI. It’s a very satisfying combination, I’ll grant you. The arm and table are certainly vintage though the cartridge is from the mid 90’s.

On it’s best day, with as perfect a setup I can muster, it never came close to what the VPI/ET2 could do with the same phono cartridge. IMHO and obviously your mileage does vary.

Denon DP-80 is reference model, the drive alone was ￥95,000 in 1981.

The DP-1200 was￥49,800 with plinth and tonearm in 1977.

This is very big difference in price and those drives are way different.

The DP-80 was the most expensive Denon DD in production line, except for their ultra high-end DP-100 which is one of the most expensive vintage DD even today.

When it comes to vintage turntables it’s very important to pay attention to exact model, not all of them are good enough, only specific models. I do not quote entry level models here on audiogon when it comes to Denon turntables, because the reference PD-80 is very reasonably priced on used market and this is the one to buy (the rest of the models can be ignored). DP-80 is amazing Direct Drive, the price i paid for my mint condition unused unit was a steal.

@chakster 

Have you ever owner a Garrard?  Yes. I agree DD would be a more costly approach. But to state not any better is wrong. DD and idler have a different sound. To state no better isn’t correct. They are different. 

I have a 301, along with two DD and a belt. My two close audio friends also have and one still owns an idler and a DD. One settled  on a Nantais lenco. The other has two 301’s and the DP80 all  in a row. He favours the 301’s. These are both very high end systems. But your correct the dp80 and sp10 mk2 are very cost effective.   Even more for your money is going the Lenco route. These can be purchased for about $500. 
I do understand the favouritism for the DD sound as I really like it too.  

Correction to last post. 
I meant DD is a less costly approach.

Garrard 301 alone (without plinth and tonearm) can be $4k and this is the type of turntable that must be fully refurbished, maintained, many parts must be replaced, this is a very old turntable. I like the design, especially hammertone finishing. With tonearm, cartridge and plinth this is way over OP's budget. I wish to have Garrard 301 Hammertone when I will be rich, here is a nice article about this model. It is probably a $10k turntable. With $4k budget I wouldn't mess around with Garrard and at this budget DD is the way to go. Especially Luxman PD-444 that does not need any modification, refurbishing, plinth replacement etc.   

I owned a PD-444 back in the late 70s and early 80s.  I attended a listening session at a local dealer in the early 80s that featured the Luxman, a Logic DM101, an Oracle Delphi and a Michell Gyrodec, all with the same arm and cartridge.

It wasn't even close, with the Luxman clearly the worst of the bunch.  I wound up trading mine for the Gyrodec.  As I recall, Luxman discontinued the 444 shortly after and came out with a similar belt drive table.

Be sure you have performed any necessary cleaning, oiling and greasing and other maintenance on the TT and motor. Happy listening.

It wasn’t even close, with the Luxman clearly the worst of the bunch. I wound up trading mine for the Gyrodec. As I recall, Luxman discontinued the 444 shortly after and came out with a similar belt drive table.

@xaak

I love people who can comment about some piece of gear using their memory from 40 years ago. That’s brilliant! How old are you?

I would prefer to read about Luxman from people who actually own this turntable right now, I have two of them and personally compared my PD-444 to the best direct drive turntables. Luxman 444 with its slotless/coreless motor is a keeper, I would never sell this turntable.

Luxman PD-444 was designed by Micro Seiki and everyone know that Micro made DD and Belt Drive under their own brand.

The story about PD-555 belt drive brother of the PD-444 DD is not as described in your post.

"The PD-555 sold rather poorly in Japan and wasn’t even advertised at all - a fate very different from the earlier PD-444 which sold very well and with minimal advertising, too." -vintageknob

You can find valid opinion from experienced users who own PD-444 since the 80’s and still love it (in comparison to many different turntables). You can read about it here (or see the quite below). It has been posted by @213cobra and I always enjoyed reading his posts about audio gear, because he has the same high efficient Zu Audio speakers and low power amps (valves and solid state that I like a lot).

Here is what he said: "I’ve owned Linn, Transcriptors, Thorens, VPI, Pink Triangle, Mission, Systemdeck, Kenwood, Sony and maybe even some other belt drive turntables since the early 1970s. I was socialized in my early hifi days to prefer belt drive turntables. But some things don’t stick. Continuously since 1980, I’ve had a Luxman PD441 (and later added a PD444) direct drive turntable. Various Linns, VPIs, Pink Triangles and Thori co-existed with the Luxman and it’s the Luxman 441/444 that’s always been left standing. They’ve won on sound, speed consistency, drive, tone, isolation, lack of noise, immunity from ambient factors. Rumble? I’ve never had so little on any turntable. It’s essentially undetectable. If there’s any coming from the turntable, it is dwarfed by rumble recorded into most discs. This Luxman series has a magnetic-repulsion arrangement for a "load-free" (I think it’s really "reduced load") spindle/bearing. A Verdier is interesting to me, but I stopped bothering with belt drive. I continue to get superb tone and energetic presentation from my Luxman PD 4XX turntables. Watch out for either a 441/444 and snag it." -Phil (213cobra).

@xaak 

Another comment from audiogon member Phil (213cobra) about his experience with different turntables and Luxman PD-444, it will spread the light a bit:  

Circa 1976 I owned at once a Linn Sondek, Luxman PD444 and a Transcriptor Glass Skeleton. I've been using the Luxman PD441 and 444 turntables for 36 years. In the meantime, Linn, Pink Triangle, VPI, Mission and several other belt drive turntables have come and gone. Along the way I found the Luxman direct drives could be significantly improved by replacing the stock spring/elastromer feet with brass cones on Aurios media bearings. At the time, the Luxman PD444 was the best sounding direct drive turntable of its era, better still than the Technics SP10 and SP25, and it has remained the table to beat in my systems. I have two PD444s with the footing upgrades. So me using direct drive is not a recent thing nor a "move away from belt drive." I used both drive technologies together in my systems over the years, but about ten years ago sold my last belt-drive turntable. I haven't heard anything belt-driven to persuade me to return, save possibly the top version of the VPI Classic.

If Luxman hadn't made the PD44X turntables, I'd probably have been using belt drive all these years. The design choices made for these tables were exceptional and in some respects resemble choice Harry Weisfeld arrived at for his Classic series about 35 years after the Luxmans were engineered. The Luxman PD444 weighs about 65 lbs because its plinth sandwiches a chipboard (better than MDF for resonance control) core between a heavy iron plate and an aluminum top sheet. The drive motor, custom built by Tokyo Electric, includes magnetic repulsion for a "load-free spindle" (really, load reduced bearing), phase-lock loop and a perimeter-mass platter to smooth out any residual "hunting." At a time when an armless Linn Sondek cost $350 in the US, the Luxman PD444 was $895.

The closest equivalent today is the Brinkmann Oasis, and if I were to replace my Luxmans today, that's what I'd buy.

Now, each drive technology sounds different. I did briefly own a Thorens TD124 in 1975. Less was investigated back then about plinthing idler drive turntables in domestic hifi, and idlers had fast lost respect for their problems. But remembering the energetic drive of that Thorens, a couple of years ago I bought a nearly NOS Garrard 401, had a birch-stack plinth made for it and topped it with a Thomas Schick tonearm to use with Ortofon SPU cartridges. That has proved a sufficiently entertaining alternative to the Luxmans that I am pretty sure I'll upgrade it with a slate, slate/wood or solid wood (blocks laminated) plinth. The Luxmans have the more precise, objective sound. The Garrard/Schick/SPU produces a big, robust, bursty sound less extractive of detail than the Luxman, but more imbued with sheer emotion.

I used the direct drive Luxman for 25 years before moving my systems to SET amps about ten years ago, and then to Zu + SET in 2005. So the "shift" between drive systems had different origins. Modern SET + Zu overcame a multi-decades dissatisfaction with hifi for me. The ability to at once be relieved of the incoherence, phase anomalies and dynamic choking of crossover-based speakers and enjoy the absence of crossover grunge in push-pull tube amps, get the tonal completeness and integrity of SET and wideband drivers, with modern sonic accuracy ended the futility intrinsic to high end audio as a pursuit, for me. It was a far bigger development than choosing turntable drive systems. Since placing Zu + Audion SET in my systems, a wider range of music has been made listenable and enjoyable. My patience for truly advancing upgrades is Zen-like. And I am entirely opportunity-focused about improvements rather than chasing irritations around the edges because the central topological problems in speakers and amps weren't solvable.

It's not that I am upgrading via DACs as much as I am going to expand by adding another source, and if I can get an upgrade to optical, terrific. We're clearly, in the waning years of Redbook CD, getting more options for good sound from that format than in all the years of the format's existence up to, say, 2009. So this is worth paying attention to.

When you're evaluating turntables/tonearms/cartridges, beware the many contemporary devices that succeed in making vinyl sound more like CD. Prioritize simplicity and quality of execution. And remember, you have to live with the device day-to-day, which can be different from 2 hours in a store.

Phil

Originally posted on audiogon in 2012 here. 

Actually Phil inspired me to try PD-444 and when I bought my first unit I  sold my Technics SP-10 mkII because Luxman was better and more convenient for many tonearms. 

@chakster

Old enough to recognize your response is indicative of someone who’s world view is being attacked.

The facts are I owned a pd-444, I heard something significantly better, and I bought it. Sorry this doesn’t fit your world view.

TBS can be so limiting.

@xaak I could buy whatever turntable, but I use two PD-444 and my Denon DP-80, Victor TT-101 and Technics SP-10 mkII (and many more turntables) were near and easy to compare to PD-444. I use so many different tonearms and cartridges, but I hate belt drive turntables believe it or not, over 20 years ago I had enough time with belt drives (never again, i came to Direct Drive for a good reason), also I think vacuum pump is inconvenient. I prefer Direct Drive and already have the best of them (not all, but some of the very best). I wish I could buy Denon DP-100 in the next 10 years.

By now I don’t think turntable of such high class like PD-444 must be replaced and there are NO turntables like that for two tonearms designed so nicely to swap and adjust tonearms quickly. For me it’s the best TT in the lab (I got 8 tonearms at the moment and still searching). For me cartridges and tonearms are far more important that the drive (if the drive is DD, especially coreless DD).

If you like to tell us about better turntable with all these features please post a link, don’t forget to mention the price!

If you are so upset that you bought Luxman in the 80’s let me tell you that today it goes for $4000 in perfect condition and you could make a good profit. This is one of the most beautiful turntables and people love it.

Artisan fidelity could make additional wooden plinth for them. 

Luxman still making turntables, but sadly not as good as the PD-444

@chakster 

I'm not upset I bought the 444 in 79, and I'm not at all upset I traded it in.  Audiophilia is a journey, and I'm extremely happy with the musical enjoyment I've gotten out of my system over the years.

I don't need, or even want two tonearms on my rig at the same time.

I'm glad you enjoy your system, but it doesn't make you look good to try and attack people who don't agree with you.

That's it, I'm done with you now.

@chakster 

It is possible to put together a 301 more affordably. Still more than the budget we are talking about here. I prefer grease over oil bearing but an oil bearing 301 can be had in nice condition for under $2k. And even less for a 401. I sold a perfect grease recently for $3k Canadian dollars. And plinths can be purchased online for as low as $500. I had Steve Dobbins do a full service on the one I’m using now for a cost of $450 usd. 

Yes. Still more than the direct drive options. But not by that much. I do agree that the Luxman is a good choice as it is complete with plinth. I saw one in a shop recently for $2k Canadian dollars. ($1500 usd). It had an arm on it too. Can’t remember the arm. 

I'm not upset I bought the 444 in 79, and I'm not at all upset I traded it in. Audiophilia is a journey, and I'm extremely happy with the musical enjoyment I've gotten out of my system over the years.

The OP asked for turntable guidance, i'm not sure your post could help someone if you tried Luxman in 1979, now we have much better phono stages, speakers, cables etc.  

I don't need, or even want two tonearms on my rig at the same time.

People have more enthusiasm at younger age I believe. However, It's not necessary to put two tonearms on Luxman, it can be used with one tonearm (any size). 

I'm glad you enjoy your system, but it doesn't make you look good to try and attack people who don't agree with you.

I never attack anyone, simple facts is what I post here, especially when other people asking for guidance. I don't like belt drive turntables as I said, but we have many more people who do not understand what is a high-end direct drive and posting nonsense about them, some models are completely unknown for them as i can see reading this forum.

An impression from a listening session made in 1979 is not valid today, many younger audiophiles re-discovering vintage Japanese direct drive and happy about them, prices only goes up. Direct drive perspective like almost everything in audio was a way different in 1979 than today (in the digital world and belt drive turntables) @xaak   

Thanks everyone for the advice.  I've been enjoying getting back to my analog system and rediscovering some of my records.

I find myself wondering how I lived with digital only these past 15 years.  Probably because I don't really listen to digital stuff, it's just background.

Now I really can't wait to get my VPI/ET2.5 back up and running.

Nothing wrong with your TTs or speakers.  Upgrade your electronics.  Get a better cartridge.  

Bryston is fine gear, but a 3B is a 40 year old design! That's the first of five Bryston generations. Twenty years ago I had a 3BSST and 4BSST and they sounded very well with Magnepans, but my 3B was only usable for HT.

That's your first improvement, I say.