@xaak
Another comment from audiogon member Phil (213cobra) about his experience with different turntables and Luxman PD-444, it will spread the light a bit: Circa 1976 I owned at once a Linn Sondek, Luxman PD444 and a Transcriptor Glass Skeleton. I've been using the Luxman PD441 and 444 turntables for 36 years. In the meantime, Linn, Pink Triangle, VPI, Mission and several other belt drive turntables have come and gone. Along the way I found the Luxman direct drives could be significantly improved by replacing the stock spring/elastromer feet with brass cones on Aurios media bearings. At the time, the Luxman PD444 was the best sounding direct drive turntable of its era, better still than the Technics SP10 and SP25, and it has remained the table to beat in my systems. I have two PD444s with the footing upgrades. So me using direct drive is not a recent thing nor a "move away from belt drive." I used both drive technologies together in my systems over the years, but about ten years ago sold my last belt-drive turntable. I haven't heard anything belt-driven to persuade me to return, save possibly the top version of the VPI Classic.
If Luxman hadn't made the PD44X turntables, I'd probably have been using belt drive all these years. The design choices made for these tables were exceptional and in some respects resemble choice Harry Weisfeld arrived at for his Classic series about 35 years after the Luxmans were engineered. The Luxman PD444 weighs about 65 lbs because its plinth sandwiches a chipboard (better than MDF for resonance control) core between a heavy iron plate and an aluminum top sheet. The drive motor, custom built by Tokyo Electric, includes magnetic repulsion for a "load-free spindle" (really, load reduced bearing), phase-lock loop and a perimeter-mass platter to smooth out any residual "hunting." At a time when an armless Linn Sondek cost $350 in the US, the Luxman PD444 was $895.
The closest equivalent today is the Brinkmann Oasis, and if I were to replace my Luxmans today, that's what I'd buy.
Now, each drive technology sounds different. I did briefly own a Thorens TD124 in 1975. Less was investigated back then about plinthing idler drive turntables in domestic hifi, and idlers had fast lost respect for their problems. But remembering the energetic drive of that Thorens, a couple of years ago I bought a nearly NOS Garrard 401, had a birch-stack plinth made for it and topped it with a Thomas Schick tonearm to use with Ortofon SPU cartridges. That has proved a sufficiently entertaining alternative to the Luxmans that I am pretty sure I'll upgrade it with a slate, slate/wood or solid wood (blocks laminated) plinth. The Luxmans have the more precise, objective sound. The Garrard/Schick/SPU produces a big, robust, bursty sound less extractive of detail than the Luxman, but more imbued with sheer emotion.
I used the direct drive Luxman for 25 years before moving my systems to SET amps about ten years ago, and then to Zu + SET in 2005. So the "shift" between drive systems had different origins. Modern SET + Zu overcame a multi-decades dissatisfaction with hifi for me. The ability to at once be relieved of the incoherence, phase anomalies and dynamic choking of crossover-based speakers and enjoy the absence of crossover grunge in push-pull tube amps, get the tonal completeness and integrity of SET and wideband drivers, with modern sonic accuracy ended the futility intrinsic to high end audio as a pursuit, for me. It was a far bigger development than choosing turntable drive systems. Since placing Zu + Audion SET in my systems, a wider range of music has been made listenable and enjoyable. My patience for truly advancing upgrades is Zen-like. And I am entirely opportunity-focused about improvements rather than chasing irritations around the edges because the central topological problems in speakers and amps weren't solvable.
It's not that I am upgrading via DACs as much as I am going to expand by adding another source, and if I can get an upgrade to optical, terrific. We're clearly, in the waning years of Redbook CD, getting more options for good sound from that format than in all the years of the format's existence up to, say, 2009. So this is worth paying attention to.
When you're evaluating turntables/tonearms/cartridges, beware the many contemporary devices that succeed in making vinyl sound more like CD. Prioritize simplicity and quality of execution. And remember, you have to live with the device day-to-day, which can be different from 2 hours in a store.
Phil
Originally posted on audiogon in 2012 here. Actually Phil inspired me to try PD-444 and when I bought my first unit I sold my Technics SP-10 mkII because Luxman was better and more convenient for many tonearms. |
It wasn’t even close, with the Luxman clearly the worst of the bunch. I wound up trading mine for the Gyrodec. As I recall, Luxman discontinued the 444 shortly after and came out with a similar belt drive table. @xaak I love people who can comment about some piece of gear using their memory from 40 years ago. That’s brilliant! How old are you? I would prefer to read about Luxman from people who actually own this turntable right now, I have two of them and personally compared my PD-444 to the best direct drive turntables. Luxman 444 with its
slotless/coreless motor
is a keeper, I would never sell this turntable. Luxman PD-444 was designed by Micro Seiki and everyone know that Micro made DD and Belt Drive under their own brand. The story about PD-555 belt drive brother of the PD-444 DD is not as described in your post. "The PD-555 sold rather poorly in Japan and wasn’t even advertised at all - a fate very different from the earlier PD-444 which sold very well and with minimal advertising, too." -vintageknob You can find valid opinion from experienced users who own PD-444 since the 80’s and still love it (in comparison to many different turntables). You can read about it here (or see the quite below). It has been posted by @213cobra and I always enjoyed reading his posts about audio gear, because he has the same high efficient Zu Audio speakers and low power amps (valves and solid state that I like a lot). Here is what he said: "I’ve owned Linn, Transcriptors, Thorens, VPI, Pink Triangle, Mission, Systemdeck, Kenwood, Sony and maybe even some other belt drive turntables since the early 1970s. I was socialized in my early hifi days to prefer belt drive turntables. But some things don’t stick. Continuously since 1980, I’ve had a Luxman PD441 (and later added a PD444) direct drive turntable. Various Linns, VPIs, Pink Triangles and Thori co-existed with the Luxman and it’s the Luxman 441/444 that’s always been left standing. They’ve won on sound, speed consistency, drive, tone, isolation, lack of noise, immunity from ambient factors. Rumble? I’ve never had so little on any turntable. It’s essentially undetectable. If there’s any coming from the turntable, it is dwarfed by rumble recorded into most discs. This Luxman series has a magnetic-repulsion arrangement for a "load-free" (I think it’s really "reduced load") spindle/bearing. A Verdier is interesting to me, but I stopped bothering with belt drive. I continue to get superb tone and energetic presentation from my Luxman PD 4XX turntables. Watch out for either a 441/444 and snag it." -Phil (213cobra). |
@xaak I could buy whatever turntable, but I use two PD-444 and my Denon DP-80, Victor TT-101 and Technics SP-10 mkII (and many more turntables) were near and easy to compare to PD-444. I use so many different tonearms and cartridges, but I hate belt drive turntables believe it or not, over 20 years ago I had enough time with belt drives (never again, i came to Direct Drive for a good reason), also I think vacuum pump is inconvenient. I prefer Direct Drive and already have the best of them (not all, but some of the very best). I wish I could buy Denon DP-100 in the next 10 years. By now I don’t think turntable of such high class like PD-444 must be replaced and there are NO turntables like that for two tonearms designed so nicely to swap and adjust tonearms quickly. For me it’s the best TT in the lab (I got 8 tonearms at the moment and still searching). For me cartridges and tonearms are far more important that the drive (if the drive is DD, especially coreless DD). If you like to tell us about better turntable with all these features please post a link, don’t forget to mention the price! If you are so upset that you bought Luxman in the 80’s let me tell you that today it goes for $4000 in perfect condition and you could make a good profit. This is one of the most beautiful turntables and people love it. Artisan fidelity could make additional wooden plinth for them. Luxman still making turntables, but sadly not as good as the PD-444 |
I'm not upset I bought the 444 in 79, and I'm not at all upset I traded it in. Audiophilia is a journey, and I'm extremely happy with the musical enjoyment I've gotten out of my system over the years. The OP asked for turntable guidance, i'm not sure your post could help someone if you tried Luxman in 1979, now we have much better phono stages, speakers, cables etc. I don't need, or even want two tonearms on my rig at the same time. People have more enthusiasm at younger age I believe. However, It's not necessary to put two tonearms on Luxman, it can be used with one tonearm (any size). I'm glad you enjoy your system, but it doesn't make you look good to try and attack people who don't agree with you. I never attack anyone, simple facts is what I post here, especially when other people asking for guidance. I don't like belt drive turntables as I said, but we have many more people who do not understand what is a high-end direct drive and posting nonsense about them, some models are completely unknown for them as i can see reading this forum. An impression from a listening session made in 1979 is not valid today, many younger audiophiles re-discovering vintage Japanese direct drive and happy about them, prices only goes up. Direct drive perspective like almost everything in audio was a way different in 1979 than today (in the digital world and belt drive turntables) @xaak |
I’d like to "modernize" my system a little bit, but as a record collector, my initial focus is on the turntable. I’ve been looking around, and seems I have several options. As a record collector you have to focus on your stylus profile if you don’t want to ruin your collection, make sure the stylus is not worn yet, replace your Grado with new stylus. You can’t do that with Supex (only re-tipping). Turntable just rotate your record on the platter and if you don’t have any issues with speed stability then focus on cartridges - this is the most important. This is where you can get huge improvement that anyone can notice. With new stylus on old cartridge (or completely new cartridge) you will get much better sound. |
I bought the Supex cartridge as NOS a few months before I stored the system, and looking at it under a microscope, it looks fine. The Grado does not have a user replaceable stylus assembly, but it too looks good.
Then you're good. Grado can do the replacement job when it's time. Some Grado models have user replaceable stylus. |
I'm not into vintage for the sake of vintage, most of my stuff was fairly current when I bought it (been doing this a long time). I wouldn't be looking to ditch the VPI for older DD or idler wheel tables.
chakster:
Thanks for the info.
You're welcome. Let me assure you that any of those vintage turntables I have mentioned are much better than VPI or any modern belt-drive at this price. Technics SP 10 mkII, Luxman PD-444, Denon DP-80... those turntables are all HIGH-END direct drive and you will never find anything equal today in terms of price/performance. Garrard will cost more without being any better. When I mention any vintage gear (turntable or cartridges) in my posts i'm referring to the best turntables and best cartridges at certain price category TODAY (imo). Not because they are good looking or vintage, but only because they are better. You don't have to buy the latest gear when it comes to analog. But you have to buy the latest gear when it comes to digital. |
I’m listening to Eric Clapton Steppin’ Out on Decca FFSS using my Denon DP-1250 with a Magnepan Unitrac 1 tonearm and a Grado Reference Platinum cartridge as I type this. I’m waiting on getting my spindle rewired from ET and some new belts for the VPI. It’s a very satisfying combination, I’ll grant you. The arm and table are certainly vintage though the cartridge is from the mid 90’s.
On it’s best day, with as perfect a setup I can muster, it never came close to what the VPI/ET2 could do with the same phono cartridge. IMHO and obviously your mileage does vary. Denon DP-80 is reference model, the drive alone was ￥95,000 in 1981. The DP-1200 was￥49,800 with plinth and tonearm in 1977. This is very big difference in price and those drives are way different. The DP-80 was the most expensive Denon DD in production line, except for their ultra high-end DP-100 which is one of the most expensive vintage DD even today. When it comes to vintage turntables it’s very important to pay attention to exact model, not all of them are good enough, only specific models. I do not quote entry level models here on audiogon when it comes to Denon turntables, because the reference PD-80 is very reasonably priced on used market and this is the one to buy (the rest of the models can be ignored). DP-80 is amazing Direct Drive, the price i paid for my mint condition unused unit was a steal. |
Garrard 301 alone (without plinth and tonearm) can be $4k and this is the type of turntable that must be fully refurbished, maintained, many parts must be replaced, this is a very old turntable. I like the design, especially hammertone finishing. With tonearm, cartridge and plinth this is way over OP's budget. I wish to have Garrard 301 Hammertone when I will be rich, here is a nice article about this model. It is probably a $10k turntable. With $4k budget I wouldn't mess around with Garrard and at this budget DD is the way to go. Especially Luxman PD-444 that does not need any modification, refurbishing, plinth replacement etc. |
