Need DAC/Streaming Advice

Just now experimenting with Roon DSP. (Recently dumped Tidal for Qobuz.)

Not sure if I'm hearing expectation bias, but my impressions are the the DSP settings give a much more "near field" experience from my normal perch of approx 18 ft from my Harbeth m30.2/HSU ULS-15 MKS subs. Hearing greater delineation /space/air between voices. 
Also, seems to take a bit of upper register "sheen" away at higher dB settings.

Haven't played yet with EQ, as I'm pretty happy with balance of Harbeths and subs together.  

I got my initial settings from this Archimago's Musings post - though I confess 90% of the article is Greek to me (I looked up 64 bit floating point which served to reignite all my high school feelings of math inadequacy...)
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2019/04/measurements-roon-16-upsampling-digital.html?m=1

DSP settings I'm using are:
Head Room Mgmt: ENABLED (using default -3dB)
Sample Rate Conversion: PRECISE LINEAR PHASE
DSD Processing Settings: 7TH ORDER (CLANS)
Other settings are default.

Rest of system is:
Modwright/OPPO Sonica DAC
Fidelizer Nimtra S Server
AQ-VOX SE Switch
PS Audio BHK Signature preamp
PS Audio BHK 300 monos 

@ghulamr 
Sorry for the very late response. I understand you would like to keep using Apple Music but at the same time you are not very fond of airplay 2. Just my opinion here: I think a sort of a compromise can be achieved where you improve the main system (living room) but accept the use of airplay in less important zones / end points. To that end you could use a Mac mini / MacBook Air etc. feeding your dac directly (you can even add a usb to spiff bridge for even better results). This means that you would have your iTunes library on the Mac mini and then you use the iTunes remote from your phone to control playback etc. You can send airplay streams from the Mac mini to other rooms. All this means a Mac + dac for your main system (avoiding airplay) and airplay for the rest of the rooms where you can accept a (potential) quality compromise. Even a 2014 Mac mini with a reasonable SSD would do the job and then you can go crazy if you want with improving the output with DACs etc.

One thing to keep in mind with the above route... avoid DACs or DSP that may introduce delay. For example, older Chord dacs or Naim Dac V1 etc... they use a buffer which introduces a delay. Why does this matter? You will not be able to have perfect sync between your Mac mini (living room) and any other airplay enabled room. The annoying echo will drive you nuts :-o. Most DACs are fine though (no buffer).

Just an idea, hope it helps

@puppyt 

What are the rest of your associated equipments? I would highly recommend either Linn DS (digital streamer/DAC) such as the Linn Akurate DS or the Linn Klimax DS if you can afford them or any Naim streamer/DAC if you can also afford them as they both are expensive.
Both Linn & Naim are highly musical sounding streamer/DAC units. Musicality wise I would give an edge to Naim.

Someone mentioned about the Naim Uniti Nova in a previous post. The Naim Uniti Nova is a digital streamer/DAC/integrated amp all in one box solution. If you already have an integrated amp or preamp/power amp combo I wouldn't get the Naim Uniti Nova. I would get a dedicated Naim streamer/DAC unit like those in its 200 or 500 series but they are very expensive especially the 500 series streamer/DAC but are highly musical. 

Roon is a great app.  I switched from Logitech Media Server (LMS) a few months ago and haven't looked back.

If you plan to use Roon DSP, you will need a fairly robust computer or device to run Roon core.  DSP use is not mandatory.  I think it makes for a much better listening experience and does improve SQ.  I use Headroom Management, Sample Rate Conversion, and the Parametric EQ filter.  I also use volume leveling.  I'm still learning how to use DSP, but overall, I'm quite satisfied with my results.

My source is an Innuos Zenith MKII network media server/CD ripper.  Roon core runs on a sonicTransporter for Roon DSP.  If you are looking for an excellent media server/CD ripper, take a look at Innous products.  The Zenith line is relatively pricey, the Zen line is far less expensive with basically the same functional capabilities as a Zenith. 

• With an Innous product, you will need an external DAC
• Innous products can decode/render MQA files
• Innous products are Roon ready and can run Roon core (My older MKII runs Roon core, but isn't powerful enough to run Roon core with DSP.  The newer MK3 version can.)

I have a NAD M12 pre/dac with BluOS module (that I installed). I used the BluOS module with LMS.  Since switching to Roon, I don't use the BluOS module and I've purchased a Mytek Liberty DAC.  If you plan to use Roon, I wouldn't base my streamer decision on whether it has MQA or not. Just let Roon handle it. I would not have purchased the M12 BluOS module if I'd starting using Roon before buying the M12.

Roon handles MQA unfolding and, because I use Roon DSP, the Liberty feeds the M12 a PCM stream.  I done a few BluOS MQA versus Roon MQA comparisons.  At the same volume setting, BluOS MQA is brighter and louder than Roon MQA.  I attribute that to my use of Roon DSP Headroom Management and Parametric EQ filter.  Both sound great, I like the Roon MQA sound better.

Lastly, if at all possible, use Ethernet cable to your endpoints.  I use WiFi in my secondary system (Verizon FIOS Quantum Gateway router with Orbi RBR50 WAP and satellite).  The WiFi signal blankets my house, but I still get an occasional dropout.  My main system is all Ethernet, with no network connectivity issues!  

I am using the PS Audio DirectStream DAC vir Roon/Tidal.  It is amazing.  I would put it up against the MSB dac (in my system)!  

I don’t have personal experience with them but NAD (which is part of the same company that makes BlueSound) makes several products with BluOS built in. So you get the exact same functionality of the BlueSound products but in a much "better" (higher end) package (full separates with better power supplies, better DAC, etc). They make DAC/streamers, integrated amp/streamers, etc. Someone already mentioned the brand new NAD C658 ($1,500), which is one I have my eye on too, but there are other models depending on which specific features you are looking for.

Oh and +1 for Roon. Fantastic interface and the "killer app" functionality is the ability to seamlessly integrate all your music from Tidal, Qobuz, and whatever is stored on your local drives into one large library. You can shuffle music in your library regardless of if it's a local CD rip or on Tidal or Qobuz. I LOVE that feature because sometimes I want to create a playlist of a handful of albums where I have a few files on my hard drive and a few are on Tidal. BluOS doesn't do this - you either listen to Tidal or you listen to a local CD rip. Can't do both seamlessly but with Roon you can. 

@russellrcncom 

+1 on the mini. I just recently acquired a Lumin u1 mini from upscale audio. They offered a 10% discount for returning customers so I was able to get the mini for 1800. Still above your 1500 limit, but it’s closer and every bit counts, right? 😀

anyway, I have been extremely pleased with it streaming hi res Qobuz to my devialet. The Lumin app, is quite nice and user friendly as well, but I also am doing a Roon trial, and already know I will buy the lifetime membership as soon as my trial is over. Roon is fantastic!

regards,

mike

Although there are facilities within the Roon software to modify/improve the sound, I personally would not purchase it solely on the basis of those features.  Roon is a superior interface...significantly so in my opinion and is worth it for that alone.  I have experimented with some of the DSP features but frankly couldn't reliably hear any differences.

There have been several mentions of Roon. Does Roon improve sound quality or is it simply a superior interface?

I own a Bluesound Node2 and a Lumin T1.  I used the Bluesound in my main system for about a year before I moved it to a second system and replaced it with the Lumin.  I was, and still am, very happy with the performance of the Node2.  Yes, I think the Lumin is better (at a significant increase in cost) but the Bluesound is a very, very good entry level unit.  The law of diminishing returns is invoked when it comes to moving up from the Node.  I use both the Bluesound and Lumin with Roon so issues with their respective apps are not relevant to me at this time but I thought the Bluesound app was very functional and straightforward.

Headphone:

Thank you!  I very much appreciate explanation.

@ghulamr you probably want to re-clock as close to the dac as possible, not near the source if you go through another device. 

puppyt, re-clocking is when a device takes in a digital signal and then sends it out (or to some internal part) but changes the timing of the bit-transfer. It usually uses a small cache-memory and a very precise clock. A problem with digital transfers through spdif and such are that they carry the clock-signal as a "side effect" in the transfer. If this don't work perfectly the digital data sent to the dac will arrive (slightly) out of time and decrease the sound quality. Many expensive dacs have built-in reclockers now days and some allows an external clock to be connected and used.

Surprised no one referenced Roon. Allows you to choose your preferred streamer gear but not be enslaved to an app or UI that may not be supported once a device is obsolete.

Running Roon with Tidal and Qobuz on a Squeezebox and will shortly add a Lumin D2, still using Roon. Roon does not support Deezer or Spotify which may be a dealbreaker. This is due to both services not agreeing to participate, not anything on Roons part.

What does it mean to “reclock with a Synchro-Mesh”

Hi Steve, 
I always appreciate your posts. Unfortunately unlike other folks on this forum, I stream using Apple Music. Don't find much difference between Tidal basic and Apple music basic plans. And besides the entire household is using Apple Music. I don't like to use Airplay as that really compromises the sound - so my connection is streaming from my Apple TV to OPPO 105 digital out (to split the HDMI sound) and spdif into my Benchmark DAC. Can I use the Synchro-Mesh at the source (Apple TV) to re-clock? Will it improve sound? or should I bite the bullet and get Tidal hi-rez along with a better streamer? 

There is nothing wrong with Sonos, as long as it's reclocked with a Synchro-Mesh.  Customers tell me that the SQ is as good as it gets and hi-rez doesn't matter.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

My bias would be the Bryston BDP-3, as that is the call I just made, but I just picked up the BDP-3 and haven’t had a chance to set it up yet, so check back with me in a few weeks.  I am hoping for synergy with the BDA-3 and that the unit as a whole will be more stable than Bluesound, and hopefully, considering the increased price relative to Bluesound, it will sound better.
  With the NAD you are confined to the Blue OS app, and while it isn’t bad, with the Bryston there are at least two possible ways to control it.
Actually I don’t know that much about the NAD, so perhaps it can be used with another app...worth investigating.

This is a pretty robust and enjoyable discussion. I have a Bryston BDA-3 feeding a Bryston 17B3 feeding two Bryston 4B3 monoblocks feeding a pair of Magnepan 1.7i Speakers. Given the above what would be the best streamer of the following: NAD Masters Series M50.2 (A Blusound unit that can also rip CDs. I am hoping that the Blusound streaming would be better than a Node 2i) OR a Roon Nucleus OR the Bryston BDP-3 and why? Thanks!

@ghulamr I don't think there's any direct option to stream Apple Music from one source to another except using AirPlay. You'd have to convert the digital output or perform digital audio capture from an Apple Music source (e.g. your computer) for transmission over a network-compatible audio transport protocol going to some other device. Or use a long digital cable.

@johnkay74 - if you don't have Roon, what's the best way to stream Apple music from Allo Digi One? I really don't want to use Airplay as I believe it compromises on the sound. Also I want to stick with Apple music because of everyone in the family using it. 
Currently I am streaming from my Apple TV to OPPO 105 digital out (to split the HDMI sound) into my Benchmark DAC. Sounds really good but I've heard Digi One takes to another level. Any help or direction will be greatly appreciated. Thanks, 

I'm not entirely familiar with the Bryston kit, but FWIW if you already have a ripped collection going from that machine via USB to your DAC (I run a Win10 machine into the Brooklyn DAC+) and stream via Roon which does Tidal as well as Qobuz in addition to accessing my FLAC archives. 

I have a Blusound Node 2 and it's great but the sound coming from the same things directly to the Brooklyn are far superior to my ears.  Trying to figure out where else in the house I should put it now ... I never had any connection issues and used Gigabit ethernet. 

Jonkay
sorry to hear about your Bluesound problems. Did you try a different streamer?

mahler123, I have gone back and forth with a number of solutions:
- Sonos connect (with external dac + amp)
- Naim Nova
- Allo Digi One with Volumio (feeding the above external dac + amp)

The Nova sounded great but it is super expensive and it needs careful partnering with speakers (a bit bass heavy). The Naim app was occasionally buggy.

The Allo Digi One used with Roon is (to my ears) the best sounding and also the cheapest. Unfortunately, scaling this to include additional units (RPi3 based) is not easy and it involves a lot of hassle.

I have resigned to using a single Allo Digi One feeding my main system for critical listening and then a Sonos Connect + Sonos One units for multiroom around the house.

The combination allows for listening options but it results in multiple boxes, cables and switching. Not a problem for me but my family will not go near the system...

Burchart? Some entry level kit?

I see you seedubcris. I started out (my desktop) with Martin Logan's 15's and a Schiit Vidar with the Chord Mojo acting as a pre- and volume control streaming Spotify.. Not too shabby.. Now it is PS M700's, Burchart S400's and Prism Sound Callia streaming tidal.. its all in the wrist.. 

Blue sound/node should have never came into the conversation as well as the other "affordable" alternatives.. Save your pennies and get something worth owning, just my opinion.. My target is the Lab12 Dac1 and Aries G1, albeit they are both a future goal on my vision board.. 
 

I am most happy streaming tidal from my Astell and kern AK320 via optical to the Chord Hugo 2 TT. Works great . Sounds fantastic. Might upgrade to an aurelec Aries but for now the little player works very well for me . Sounds better than streaming from the tidal desktop app by a big margin . The new Hugo 2 is amazing . 

 listen to the man  @lalitk
 

@puppyt we carry both Bryston and Lumin, and I would recommend looking at Lumin if you're interested in a change in the user experience coming from the Bryston and Manic Moose. Although as others have mentioned fronting the Bryston with Roon is also a good option.

@ghulamr AirPlay will resample any streamed music to 16-bit/48kHz which may be undesirable to some. Most of the higher-end dedicated audio streamers support native bit-perfect playback of multiple different audio codecs and containers, which can be beneficial. Particularly if your DAC sounds different depending on what it's playing back.

Really trying to understand why audiophiles prefer AirPlay? 

Thanks for posting that, mgrif
In the past, I didn’t think that there was much difference between Bluesound as a transport when I compared it with my Oppo 105 and my MacAir using Audirvana + when all played into the same DAC.  They didn’t sound identical, but I thought they were more or less equivalent.  After not using Bluesound for over a month due to connectivity issues, and now using it again, I do think that it is just a slight bit less transparent than the other two options I currently have for controlling my NAS.  My 0.03 on SQ

Like others, I had a great deal of difficulty with connectivity of a Bluesound Node 2.  I think (hope, pray) that I’ve permanently solved that by putting an access point (google Wifi mesh) and connecting the Node via Ethernet.  It’s been stable since I made that change.  I have two Node 2’s in separate homes connected this way now.  For the price, Node 2/2i is a great device.

I also have an Aurender N100 in another system. To satisfy my curiousity, I  compared the Node 2 to my Aurender N100 going into the same DAC playing the same file and while streaming via Tidal.  On another post, I talk about how I did this and the cables used (turns out they’re pretty important).

Conclusions:

1)  The DAC in the Node 2 is decent for the price, but is easily and significantly bested by my outboard DAC - which is no surprise given the significant cost differential.

2) the Node 2 is a great device as a streamer but is significantly bettered by the Aurender in every regard too. 

3) Aurender’s conductor app is significantly better than Bluesound app in every regard.  

4) Aurender conductor app is severely limited in that it only runs on an iPad.  This is a major frustration.  We have adult kids who don’t travel with iPads - so they can’t control an Aurender server - hence my use of the Bluesound Node 2 in two of these systems. 

My $.03 (inflation)
mgrif

Does playing Tidal or any other service via AirPlay affect SQ? I’ve A/B using Apple TV direct connect to my Benchmark DAC and AirPlay and there is definite SQ compromise with AirPlay. 

I haven’t picked up the BDP3-just got an email from the shop today saying it arrived.
is the Tidal app on your computer, or on theBDP-2?  Or do you access it it as a direct link from Manic Moose?
btw, Bryston has a users forum, you may want to scope it out if you haven’t already.

Mahler, would love to hear how your BDP-3 is coming along. FWIW, I fired my BDP-2 up this morning and updated the firmware. I was able to stream Tidal smoothly. I still can’t figure out how to get to the hi-rez music and I do pay for Tidal Hi-Fi. The Manic Moose controller still leaves a lot to be desire but I did have a couple of hours enjoying streaming music and my own hi-Rez files today.

For ripping that many cd's I would look for special hardware. Maybe there is an audiophile group around that has one?
Or you could buy one and then sell it afterwards. 
These things can RIP 50 discs at a time or more.

https://www.alphr.com/realworld/362734/the-rapid-way-to-rip-a-cd-collection/page/0/2

Vault 2 sounds good I agree but some cd it can’t record into hard drive only few songs, but the same cd when I insert into my CD player I can listen even random mode entire cd without any problem , and also recorded library is unorganized art work mixed up, in this case Mac mini is better and sound is not bad too and easer to move files,ofcours  if this is not main reference source, like in my case  my min source is still cd and records.

Like mahler123 above, I I also encountered significant problems with Bluesound and ended up returning. I initially purchased the older Node 2 and Puse 2 about a year ago. Used them for 3 months and then sold as I could not deal with the bugs I encountered. More recently I purchased a Pulse mini 2i and a Node 2i. Different bugs and not a good experience with customer service (similar to mahler). Ended up returning as I was in the window. I think that a lot of problems occur when multiple units are installed and used as a multiroom system.

So like a XSP-1 ? Where I could still utilize AVR for Video but use that for 2ch?

I have the node and the main problem I have had is that it has a very weak wifi receiver. It will miss or drop a signal that my Apple TV or MacBook pick up without a problem. I have tried elevating it on books, tables, etc but the problem persists. But if you use it wired with Ethernet it seems fine. Good sound for its price and the app for me has been fine. 

Jonkay 
sorry to hear about your Bluesound problems.  Did you try a different streamer?

Well with regards to Roon with the BDP-1 there is an option on the services area of the Bryston interface (Maniac Moose, not the Bipolar Bison :) which allows you to enable ROON option, if it does not show up try running a firmware update. Once this options is enabled then ROON will be available. Hope this helps.

The BDP-2 should be a nice streamer. It should be more than quick enough. I would try different sofware before buying an other streamer. 
Serious music server software on a NAS might do the trick. I'm using Minimstreamer. It's very responsive. Other player software might be it. Like Bubbleupnp on an Android Phone. I'm using Bubbleupnp with Tidal/Qobuz for 3 years now. It always has been immediate in its response.

I'm taking a hard look at the Lumin U1 mini.  No internal DAC (which is what I want)  but I'm not sure I have the infrastructure to run it.  
I just wish I could find something under $1500.  MSRP for the Lumin is $2000.

I use Sonos to stream my digital music, which is all flac ripped CD sourced.  A friend recently came by and we fed the same material in that format plus some higher res files of the same music. Small improvement on some but by no means all cuts.

Unless you are going into high res formats for most of your listening, it may not be worth upgrading to something else.

FWIW, I use a Hegel HD-12 converter, which is a considerable step up from the on-board Sonos DA conversion.

Like mahler123 above, I I also encountered significant problems with Bluesound and ended up returning. I initially purchased the older Node 2 and Puse 2 about a year ago. Used them for 3 months and then sold as I could not deal with the bugs I encountered. More recently I purchased a Pulse mini 2i and a Node 2i. Different bugs and not a good experience with customer service (similar to mahler). Ended up returning as I was in the window. I think that a lot of problems occur when multiple units are installed and used as a multiroom system.

Entry level or not, my Bluesound Vault 2i sounds damn fine using the built-in DAC. As far as the cumbersome software, I can agree to a point, Which is why I run mine using Roon on an Intel NUC running the ROCK OS. Works flawlessly and the Roon architecture kicks SQ up considerably.

Puppy
  I’ll be interested in your take on comparing the Manic Moose app versus the BlueOS.  I know that Bipolar Bison (sorry) is supposed to be a weak spot with the Bryston Players and I might be asking Austinbob above for suggestions when I get the BDP3.
  It’s also interesting that there are complaints about speed and reliability of the BDP 1 and 2 and speed and reliability.  A lot of people wondered why Bryston went so fast from BDP 1 to 3, and the reviews tend to mention how fast and stable the BDP3 is but seem to avoid mentioning problems with the earlier players.
  I wasn’t aware that Roon could be added to the BDP2, as the ads for the BDP3 make a big deal of how It will do Roon, which to me implied the BDP2 couldn’t be a Roon endpoint.  Perhaps asosa can elaborate 

How do you add Roon to the Bryston?

Lumin U1 mini into an external dac.  

Mahler:

I bought the Node and am awaiting delivery.  I was asking about the 
Vault out of curiosity and thinking ahead. I have a couple of systems so if the Node worked great then I might buy a Vault as well.  I appreciate the advice on going the NAS route. I’ve got a bunch of thing running around my mind; just thinking through all of the options.

Good luck on the BDP. I have a feeling your experience will be much better. Please come back to the forum and let us know how it goes.  I very likely am missing some things I should be doing. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I would still consider upgrading my BDP2 especially if your experience and others is positive. 

Congrats on the BDP3. Sorry about the cold!