@mrdon
Solid gold decisions are tough to make and i appreciate "the angst" that goes into decisions such as these as well as anyone else. This guy gets it :-) While I love reading about people with huge budgets, amps that cost more than the speakers, or even cables that cost more than the speakers, that's not what I want. I love music, and I want to set this system up right, but I'd love to set it and forget it for at least 10 years. I'd rather lease another car than spend 30k on cables. For this setup (802+McIntosh), I was looking at finding used Kimber cables at reasonable prices. All in, I suspect this setup will run me a little less than 40k (half of which is the speakers). Again, thanks everyone for input. At least for me, right now, it's a pretty big financial commitment, so I want to make sure I wasn't overlooking something obvious. To be honest, I could probably just listen to my 805+Rotel+sub setup for 10 years and still be pretty happy. |
As a side bar to this discussion:
Solid gold decisions are tough to make and i appreciate "the angst" that goes into decisions such as these as well as anyone else.
Just yesterday i painted my listening room and will soon order sound panels (Acoustimac) as the next step in raising the acoustics.. New-er speakers ( and amp) are on the horizon as well but i will at least will have a "new nursery" awaiting any new pieces be it speakers or amps. ( Get it-raising acoustics-nursery)... |
A pair of Legacy Signatures at $7k can easily compare to a Proac D48R which is a $12k set of loudspeakers with even deeper lower bass and greater efficiency.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion :-) |
I have my 802D3's in a 17x26 room and they are enthralling. I have never been disappointed with their clarity or bass. I recently added a PS Audio P10 AC regenerator and it only further enhanced my musical experience particularly with classical music.
Stay with B&W in my opinion.
Happy listening.
Shad |
I have the Ref 5 and can say that they are detailed and throw a wide and precise image. The bass is fast and they go deeper than you think they should. I did compare them with the B&Ws and the Ref 5 was a step above to my ears.
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At this time, I have Rotels on the Focal Kanta 2 and the Sonus Faber Olympica 3.
The BW 802D3 is in the big rig.
DAC: Emm Labs TSDx transport + Emm Labs DAC2x dac
Preamp: Cary Audio Tube SLP-05
Amp: Boulder 2060 Stereo Class A Amplifier
Interconnects: XLR (standard cabling, yes I need to upgrade but budget budget budget!)
Power System: Torus RM15 Distributor
Power Cords: Audioquest NRG-WEL x 4
Speaker Wire: Audioquest WEL 8ft Single-Biwire
Dedicated room, nearly fully treated (66% done with the room, need maybe 2 more shipments from GIK to complete, need more diffusors and bass traps).
People say that you have to hear XYZ speaker in all its glory with the best upstreams, I think I read that in one of the posts above regarding the KEFs.
Well, you have to also keep in mind that the demo for the 802D3 is subpar... wait until you hear it in the best and most tweaked upstreams. I have had several big time speakers come by, and I still kept with the 802D3.
I have had Sonus Faber Stradivari and Rockport Aviors in my room.
BTW, if you have the room, the 800D3 is a more complete version of the 802D3.... I had the 800D3 in my room also, but I traded down to the 802D3 after having it for a couple months just because the bass was a little much. I believe you need a room that is atleast 21 feet deep for the 800D3, whereas you can get away with an 18ft room with the 802D3. Those last 3 feet make a difference. |
Thanks @joey_v that’s exactly the sort of feedback I was looking for. I heard the Kantas along with the Sopra. Very good sounding for the price. If you mind me asking, which components did you pair with the 802s? Cables? |
I have the 802d3... one of the best transducers at that price point if you mate it well with components and room.
I also own the Focal kanta 2 and the sonus Faber olympica 3 so I am well versed with different House sounds.
For me, it goes BW then Focal then SF.
But I can see where the Sopra 3 can beat out the 802d3 in some settings. |
@mayoradamwest… you are so right... any such discussion should
begin with the criteria one values most in their sound reproduction.
For me… that is… the utmost in transparency, detail
resolution, clarity, soundstage, imaging, and the tone, tenor,
texture and timbre of instruments (especially bass texture and
resolution), all in which the Legacy Audio Aeris is unmatched –
they make a double bass, cello, or piano sound live / real. Though,
the Focal 3 certainly comes close, as do the higher end Magico’s,
Tannoy’s, Gamuts, and ATC professional monitors.
Other factors, including aesthetics, are of secondary
consideration for me. Moreover, I value the capability of the
Aeris to correct for the idiosyncrasies of the room.
For others, these attributes may make them sound a bit strident on
occasion - they may value a smoother, less resolved sound. The
same is true for the Sopra 3, or the Magicos – they may seem too
strident at times (too transparent).
As you say… “to each his own.”
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I'd suggest to also listen to Dynaudio Confidence line. You'll get both smoothness in the high as well as the bass. |
Speakers are very subjective so you will know the right sound when you hear it! I don’t know how many times I thought I had the “best” to only find something better....for me. If you think they sound too bright... they are (for you)! What drives me nutz is when you go to audition speakers and the dealer feels necessary to crank them up like you were sitting in the front row of a Led Zep concert!
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Thoughts? Is the KEF really that pudgy in the middle, is the B&W really that bright, and does the Sopra 3 really lack bass presence? If you take a system level approach these questions fade away and become irrelevant. Build around what you want to achieve and not the component. |
@bassdude I can appreciate that. We’ve all got different tastes. I’m sitting here right now listening to my 805s on Rotel equipment and love it. Also, aesthetics matter to me and the Legacy Audio speakers just aren’t my cup of tea. |
If I were going to invest that much... the only speakers I would consider would be the Legacy Audio Aeris (nothing else compares).
But... of those... only the Sopra 3. |
Milipai, we are glad you love your Proacs, they are very nice speakers, our point was that the Proac is not the most popular line of loudspeakers these days if you noticed we did not knock their sound quality.
We choose our loudspeaker lines based on their sound quality, value, technology, and sonic attributes as well as their position in the market.
A pair of Legacy Signatures at $7k can easily compare to a Proac D48R which is a $12k set of loudspeakers with even deeper lower bass and greater efficiency.
The Pardigm Persona's use the most advanced drivers on the market today, with a pure Beryillium midrange driver which is unhead of at these price points, plus a pure Beryillium tweeter.
The Kef Reference line do so many things well, with one of the largest soundstages for a speaker of this size, they are very dynamic and have very deep bass for the size of the speakers, the Kef Ref 5 in particular are amazing sounding and do not dominate a room the way many otherr reference loudspeakers do.
We are also Mytek dealers, the Brooklyn dac is excellent it does not have a particularly warm sound it is not bright either, it is a neutral dac, if you want warm and musical listen to an Aqua Hifi Lavoice,
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
@
mayoradamwest, I had auditioned the B&W 805 and 804 D3 series with the PSB Imagine T3s. They sounded bright - only when I compared the treble to the T3. I did not compare them to any other loudspeakers I auditioned. Do you think you would have a chance to demo the Paradigm Persona 5F? I listened to the 3F and in a super less than ideal environment they sounded really really good. There was a huge glass window behind them and the room was not treated. Yet they sounded coherent and not diffused. That really amazed me. You should really audition this loudspeaker if you feel that your 805Ds are bright.
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@milpai agreed. I am listening to the KEF and B&W again this week on the same equipment I’d be using. I am also wondering if some of the brightness I hear is the Mytek. I have a Violectric V800 DAC, and call me crazy but it seems like it sounds fuller and less harsh on the top with my 805D3s. Seems worth another thread. Tough to audition DACs. |
@mayoradamwest,If you narrowed it down to the 3 speakers you listed, I suggest that you go and listen to these speakers, instead of getting opinions. Loudspeakers are the most critical components in an audio chain. Make sure that you pair the correct ancillaries with the KEF and Focals. Both are very good loudspeakers, but might sound bright or analytical, if not paired properly.
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@audiotroy , @yyzsantabarbara,Very surprisingly I took 2 years to look for the right loudspeakers for me. Listened to tons of speakers discussed here and ended up with ProAcs. And I did multiple audition of these loudspeakers to make sure that I make the right choice. You can say that that your preference is not ProAc.
So I can smell BS when you knock ProAcs. |
One of the downsides of audiogon forums is the hint of snobbery with a lot of people such that it can be tough to tell who's not that way. That said, based on @audiotroy posts in many other threads, I do trust his opinion. I assumed I would get even more flack from people about my choice of McIntosh SS. I know in many other threads people call it mid-fi as an insult, but honestly all the pro reviews are excellent and every time I've heard them vs other more boutique brands (at a much higher price) I felt like they held their own. That said, I do wonder if I should find a way to test out a tube pre-amp with the B&W. My concern was losing resolution for big orchestral works. |
@milpai
I believe audiotroy only carries the KEF line of speakers listed on this thread. He also said good things about B&W and Focal here. Though those comments seem rather obvious to people who know a bit about these Euro audio companies.
I have heard Brystons and Spendor and they are nowhere in the class (for me) of the KEF, Focal, and B&W. |
Milipai almost every company offers the same margins and we dont sell B&W nor Focal. Not huge B&W fans as the Diamond tweeter is a little too much for us. We love the Focals but we dont need the line as we have the Paradigm Persona line.
Lets face facts Proac was a player in the 90s same as Audio Physic both make good speakers but are hardly the go to lines they were 20 year ago.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Seriously, why speak negatively and self-serving?
Because KEF, B&W and Focals provide higher margins to audiotroy? |
I suggest, since you like the KEF's, to try listening to Tannoys. Like the KEFs, they are Dual-Concentric, will image very well, and have great bass. Check and see what they have to offer in their current lineup.
Regards,
Dan
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Hmm, that escalated quickly. I do like the Proacs, I just liked the other 3 more for the music I listen to. I heard the Sonus Faber Serafino in the same room with the same setup as the Sopra 3, and the Sopra was a clear winner to my ear. Anyway, I was just curious about feedback between these 3 for anyone who has compared them. I’m guessing there are some other things like cables that could help smooth out the diamond tweeters on the B&W. |
(((Proac are certainly good speakers but class leading they are not.
Dave))))
Troydave leaky?
Seriously, why speak negatively and self-serving?
World Class Proac and Bowers Wilkins both have great bass,
owned by many music lovers.
I have sold many of the folks that have visited your home with world-class Proacs D48 Rs so good even a caveman can do it.
The guy likes 802s.
Cant you let him enjoy his questions without peeing confusion in his sandbox.
Best JohnnyR
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Thanks @audiotroy I agree. For the record I did listen to a lot more speakers than I listed. Proac, Magico, Harbeth, etc. There is just something magical about the B&W and classical music. I liked the Focal and seemingly a bit more balanced, but the KEF was a wild card. Loved the sound of the Full size blade, but hate he look.
@audiotroy would love to visit the shop as I’m from NJ but currently live in San Jose CA. Appreciate the feedback! |
Izhak what are you talking about.
Kef, B&W, and Focal are 3 of the most prestigous and advanced loudspeakers manufacturers on Earth.
ATC, and Spendor make very good speakers with their own drivers Bryston speakers are made by Aperion and they are okay and Proac are certainly good speakers but class leading they are not.
These 3 companies produce some of the best models in their respective price points.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
I am not a big fan of any of the brands you mentioned and my recommendation is to look elsewhere into more serious brands like Bryston ,Spendor,ATC or Proac. |
Thanks both of you. My inclination at this point is the 802s. Overall I love the sound of the 805D3 and they’re not overly bright in my home theater which has room treatments. My main concern about them is whether I’d be underwhelmed by the bass. |
Completely agree with Audiotroy about sopras vs kef vs B&w.
As far as bass lacking with Sopra 3, it had to be the room, or the placement of the speakers in said room. I will admit some of the Focal speakers with bigger 8+ inch woofers can be hard to place in a room. They don’t just sound perfect with little work, but once you get them properly placed in the room, the bass will be tremendous.
In all reality, most speakers have pretty good bass now — its just making sure you get them in the right spot, and in some rooms, it’s impsosible to get the best soundstage and three dimensionality PLUS perfect bass response. |
Mayoradamwest, We are major KEF dealers and we display the entire Kef Range, the KEF's are wonderful speakers, we don't feel that they are too warm, most people find them quite detailed with a huge panormamic soundstage.
As per the KEF vs the B&W the B&W are way forward with the Diamond tweeter being a bit on the hot side for many people, your comments on their clarity with the top end being a bit too hot is quite common.
You need to hear the Kef's at a better dealer than Magnolia, we have visited the Magnolia design centers and most of the store's setups are not good. Magnolia doens't play with different combination of cables or source components, they don't know anything about upsampling and how to maximize streaming setups, and they really don't know how to derive the maximium sound quality out of these higher end products.
If you are on the East Coast come over to our shop and hear what a well setup pair of Kef Ref 5 sound like.
The Sopra's are also very musical, they don't punch as hard as the Kef's but the new Sopras are very very good. If you crave detail, speed, punch and a huge well focused soundstage the KEF's are hard to beat.
If you like a silky smooth tweeter, good detail, a rich midrange, but less dynamic presentation you should hear the Sopras again.
Dave and Troy
Audio Docdtor NJ |
