I'm considering the Hyper Eminent for my Shindo/Altec setup. The table is a Kuzma Ref 2 and Ref 313 gimbaled bearing arm. My question only has to do with sonic flavor. I was going to go with a Koetsu Rosewood Sig, but as much as I love Koetsu, I think it will be too warmly balanced in my setup. So I'm looking for a slightly more neutral sound without dipping in to brands that tend to hyper detail the event. I think many of us know what lines they are, so let's leave specific names out of this thread. Let's just say I'm looking for a more linear, dynamic sound, yet still retaining enough body.
"Hyper Eminent" Looks every bit the $5k cartridge, except the aluminum cantilever. Yes, alloy cantilever is used in higher priced Soundsmith carts and others, but shelling out that kind of dough, I want fancy exotic sounding materials in the mix, just because.
"I'm looking for a slightly more neutral sound without dipping in to brands that tend to hyper detail the event. I think many of us know what lines they are, so let's leave specific names out of this thread"
Thanks table jockey...Nice review. Not sure if I agree with this statement within the review though: "High end cartridges often end up being super refined, polished and tonally charming at the expense of transparency and immediacy." Do you think the Boron they use in the ART 1000 is a more exotic material over an Aluminum (alloy) cantilever. Interesting stuff....MSL uses what they cal Duraluminum on three of five of their cartridges...the $4500, $5500, and $9000 models. Then the Ultra Eminent at $7000 uses Boron, along w/ their flagship $11K model.
Matsudaira San’s designs definitely fall in the ’neutral’ camp, for whatever that term is worth. This often comes together with extreme detail retrieval, but the emphasis - if any - with MSL cartridges seems more on micro and macro dynamics than details for their own sake. This may be the reason these cartridges are usually described as being very lively, but sometimes also as being somewhat ’uneventful’: nothing sticks out, nothing draws attention to itself. In other words - uh - neutral.
You should disregard the ’observation’ about aluminum being an unworthy material for a top cartridge. The phrase ’just because’ in the comment says it all. Aluminum and boron clearly have different sonic attributes and generally speaking boron emphasizes detail retrieval more than aluminum. But this doesn’t mean one is superior over the other. Matsudaira San acknowledges the distinction but refuses to take sides and provides his customers with a choice, as mentioned. So If ’hyper detail’ is not your thing you’re probably better off choosing the aluminum cantilever, which in this case is ironically called Hyper Eminent.....
fjn04, I have the MSL Ultra Eminent EX which uses a boron cantilever, so the presentation may differ slightly from the cartridge that you are considering slightly. I would say the overall character of the sound is quite neutral or what I would refer to as natural. It is not a cartridge that screams call attention to itself per se, I find it more organic and almost sonically "invisible".
Edgewear said: Matsudaira San’s designs definitely fall in the ’neutral’ camp, for whatever that term is worth. This often comes together with extreme detail retrieval, but the emphasis - if any - with MSL cartridges seems more on micro and macro dynamics than details for their own sake. This may be the reason these cartridges are usually described as being very lively, but sometimes also as being somewhat ’uneventful’: nothing sticks out, nothing draws attention to itself. In other words - uh - neutral.
Very interesting! this sounds like a very quiet in the grooves cartridge, that is perhaps more balanced than some of the hyper detailed offerings out there. All great info here...off to work...back later. Thanks to all so far!!!
I believe the sensible knowledge here know it's implementation of whatever used.
We spend our hard earned cash on boxes that produce sound. I at least like to have fancy name materials to justify my purchases.
Duraluminum is an outdated marketing term for.....wait for it.........aluminum. I worked in the cycling manufacturing industry years back and learned a few things about aluminum pedigree.
Dear @fjn04 : MSL are really good cartridge designs and any buyer can't go wrong with, so an excellent alternative.
Now, you are with Kuzma and that makes me think that with any cartridge you will improve the system quality performance level with the Kuzma 4 point tonearm. You could think a little about too.
@tablejockey, it sure seems to be that way. Some people even use cactus spines:-)
fjn04, a lot depends on the phono stage. The MSL cartridges have very low internal impedances. Used with a transimpedance or current mode phono stages there are significant advantages. I personally like the MSL cartridges much better than Koetsu's which I do not think deserve the mythical status they have. With a standard phono stage I personally think you are better off with a high output moving iron design such as a Grado or Soundsmith. They have much better signal to noise ratios and should track better due to their very low moving masses. This will also give them better high frequency performance. They should also be more durable in the long run. Since the coils are fixed the coil wires are not being continuously flexed and work hardened.
@jperry , I think the right answer to Lewm's question is, "I do not know for sure." What you hear depends more on you than the cartridge. I think what lewm is getting at is that good cartridges sound very much alike. The differences can be so minor that they are not discernable by casual methods. While speakers as an example can be vastly different and the variance can be drastic with such variables as room acoustics.
I prefer using the term "balanced" rather than "neutral." The best systems do not call attention to themselves. Nothing should stand out. Individual instruments should float in space and have size and depth. Turn the treble up just a few dB and the illusion of individual cymbals disappears. Disturbing that balance in any way corrupts the illusion that you are listening to individual sound sources and not a sound system.
OP just get a SoundSmith cartridge and be happy. Sonically they are just wonderful and for the most part less expensive than other MC's and as @mijostyn stated above "should" last longer and track better.
I find that the three or four of my 20 or so cartridges that I like the best tend to sound quite the same to me if I were to close my eyes. And I like to think that this is because I am drawn to their neutrality more than anything else. In other words they do everything right and the result is they are going toward a central character that I seem to prefer.Oddly enough, two of these are MC, one is an MM, and one of these is an MI cartridge. I’ve seen the MSL cartridges on sale in Tokyo. They seem exceptionally tiny but costly. If the pandemic ever permits me to get back there, perhaps I will buy one.
" it sure seems to be that way. Some people even use cactus spines"
mijostyn- I once had a show room with Ledermann all to myself, so I got schooled on the lineup he brought with him.
The $8K cactus Sussuro was on a stock VPi HRX with his phono stage and pedestrian bookshelves. I couldn’t believe my ears! Fantastic cart.
That was a seque to the other world Straingauge again, thru shoeboxes! I can only imagine that cart on a Tech Das/giant speakers in a nice room. I wouldn’t be able to get in any saddle time on the bike!
I’ve mentioned this before, on deck was a primo copy of David Gilmour’s debut. It played so well he wanted to keep it for the rest of the show.
tablejockey brings up a very interesting point. Why is a multi kilobuck cartridge using a cheap aluminum cantilever? One could ask another question, what does one really get for one’s money when you buy a multi kilobuck cartridge? I don’t believe that the sum of the parts of any of the cartridges one could name will add to but a mere fraction of the price asked. The answer probably lies in the expected number of sales, (which is in many cases to be counted on possibly one hand), the cost of distributing the cartridge and the number of ’middle men’ involved in the endeavor. We then add on the typical costs of doing business, ( rent, salaries, taxes etc) and maybe we can begin to see why some of these minimally produced high end cartridges cost what they do. ( Aluminum cantilever or whatever!) So long as there is even a minimal market for products like this, manufacturer’s will not give a second thought to using whatever part they think will work...at a price savings to them. Which IMHO solely explains the use of a aluminum cantilever on a multi-kilobuck cartridge.
@tablejockey , great record. Class Act. I am going to audition the strain gauge next time I visit my daughter in NYC.
@daveyf , you are probably right but until somebody makes the same cartridge with various cantilevers and no other change we won't know for sure. A tapered aluminum cantilever might be better than boron rod, or ruby or cactus spine. It is never safe to assume anything but that is what we are expected to do based on the honesty of marketing?
Thanks to all for the great info, and also the cool info on the cartridge shootout from Jperry.... Just a short rewind, and I never once thought about Boron, Aluminum, Sapphire, or Cactus. It can't hurt to pay a bit of attention to this. It's interesting that with the EMT line, their entry level (Tsd and HSD) series use Aluminum, their JSD (5/6) series use BORON, and the Lime, Pure Black (and PB V/M) series use Sapphire. I think at one stage of this wicked game, having a bit of variety goes a long way. And I think at the moment, without being fully aware, I'm shopping for two cartridges. I can't bring myself to dive in to a $10K (+/-) reference cartridge. So my eventual landing would be to have 2 really nice $5K cartridges. Being that I have the EMT Tsd75, a heck of a $2K cart itself... I think the change in sonic flavor will be next. Then, perhaps a higher EMT, or some unknown contender, will follow for my next turn.
I know NOTHING about Sonic Lab carts but, based on it’s Japanese lineage, it’s made by guys that are OBSESSIVE and perfectionist.
That alone to me, would be enough assurance the lineup is solid.
I can’t remember much about anything Peter said about the cactus, except once they are "cured" they are a "perfect" material.
Spending north of a couple kilobucks is out of my league. But if it was, it’s nice to know I can get that $5K+ cart rebuilt to last longer than me with Soundsmith, AND it here, in the good ol USof A!
Have a blowout with that Sonic Lab, you send it to Mofi, they send it back to Japan....that would be a drag.
Mijostyn, go see Jeff Catalano @ Highwater, next time you're in the city. He’s a cool dude with esoteric stuff. Last time he made it to a Cal show, we ended up geeking out over the LP’s both he and I played. I had a Bowie album to play(Pinups), he pulled out a sealed copy of Spiders?(I cant recall, it may have been Alladin..whatever)
I think we carried on more about the LP’s than listen to his always amazing setups.
Duraluminum is an outdated marketing term for.....wait for it.........aluminum. I worked in the cycling manufacturing industry years back and learned a few things about aluminum pedigree.
Wrong.
Duraluminum is an ALLOY of aluminium, copper, manganese, magnesium, iron and silicon. It is NOT aluminium. Duraluminum is lighter but harder than steel, its mechanical properties are quite different to aluminium.
I hope the other things you learnt during your employment in the cycling manufacturing industry were founded on fact.
tablejockey brings up a very interesting point. Why is a multi kilobuck cartridge using a cheap aluminum cantilever? One could ask another question, what does one really get for one’s money when you buy a multi kilobuck cartridge? I don’t believe that the sum of the parts of any of the cartridges one could name will add to but a mere fraction of the price asked.
Irrelevant - the Hyoereminent uses a Duraluminum cantilever. Duraluminum is quite different to aluminium - see my above post.
At least with the Mysoniclab you are getting the original cartridge designed by the guy that oem's many of the megabuck alternatives. it has ultralow impedance with reasonable output, compared to other designs - this has significant advantages in transmitting the signal to the phono without loss of information and distortion. There is years of research gone into his designs.
I find that the three or four of my 20 or so cartridges that I like the best tend to sound quite the same to me if I were to close my eyes. And I like to think that this is because I am drawn to their neutrality more than anything else. In other words they do everything right and the result is they are going toward a central character that I seem to prefer.Oddly enough, two of these are MC, one is an MM, and one of these is an MI cartridge.
If you cant hear significant differences between MC & MM cartridges you must be deaf. If you think that your favourite cartrdiges do everything right - you must have low standards. There are no cartridges that do everything right regardless of price - every design is a subject to the designers own aspirations or goals and what compromises are acceptable to the designer in order to achieve their particular goals.
"I hope the other things you learnt during your employment in the cycling manufacturing industry were founded on fact."
Dover, I didn’t feel the need for detailed properties. Most know it’s a few keystrokes to EXACT information. .https://www.britannica.com/technology/duralumin It’s still aluminum. Duralumin for a bike frame was considered...meh
The EMT's are very good, and often overlooked. I would say the same is true with MSL, though I've yet to hear one. I think there is something with the Alnico magnet that gives a forceful drive to the proceedings which works well with Shindo. The way my TSD 75 has performed makes going a different direction feel like quite the venture. In fact, there is a fair chance I may cave and go with EMT again. Their new series (Noble ?) is supposed to be mega bucks, so I would likely go pure black or Lime.The EMT is not considered to be a soundstage champ, but they offer a very pleasurable listen.
Why do you think a material not used in bicycle frames should not be used in a phono cartridge - do you put treacle in your car - its runny just like oil ??
@dover have you made any direct comparisons between MSL cartridges and the work Matsudaira San has done for other brands like Airtight, TechDas, Haniwa, Accuphase and others? The body materials, components and specs are all more or less the same, so it would be interesting if there's a difference between his own brand and the OEM work for others. Perhaps there's a certain amount of tailoring the sound to the requirements of that particular brand?
I have only heard the MSL & Airtight. My impression is the MSL tends to sound more precise versus the Airthight which is little warmer in the midrange. Personally whilst others describe the Air Tights as more musical, romantic - I found them to be a little muddled through the midband. Of those two brands I would go Mysonic every time. I think some folk who have "hifi systems" prefer added warmth to flesh out what is missing from their system.
I think what happens is that as Matsudaira's development continues you get trickle down to the OEMs. I suspect that the OEM's have a say in how their versions are voiced. You have to remember that all of these businesses - Mysonic, Air Tight, Techdas etc - are artisanal and they will be wanting a voicing that suits their own products that they either manufacture or distribute.
At each price point they are similar in performance, but my attitude is why buy the OEM when you can buy the original. The designers own brand, Mysonic, will represent best the designers goals at each price point in my view.
Right, MSL cartridges are a slightly better value because there is one less middleman.
The mythology surrounding cartridges is rather stunning. Cartridges are extremely simple devices. It is all in the details. Anyone with a good assembly microscope can make one. I did not say make a good one. That takes a lot of practice. Labor is the most significant and largest expense. The parts do not cost all that much. Prices are inflated to suit the market. Less so for MM cartridges.
I think people like lewm and myself are better at filtering out the psychological aspects of listening so our appraisal of sonic differences is less dramatic and I would like to think more realistic. Both of us use ESLs so it is not that our systems have limited resolution.
Dover, you twisted my words. Please re-read carefully what I wrote. “Quite the same” does not mean indistinguishable. No cartridge is perfect. And I might be deaf, but you have other disabilities associated with your character that seem to be equally incurable, eg, you are rude and not qualified for civil discourse on a forum such as this.
@dover this voicing to specific requirements for these brands is what I had suspected as well. Then again I seem to remember one poster here suggested that AirTight doesn’t even bother to offer their cartridges for sale in Japan and leaves the home market to MSL. This suggests that any sonic differences would be negligable.
I recently had a good deal on a dealer demo Accuphase AC-6, which is another variation on the MSL theme. It has the impedance of Hyper Eminent (1.8 ohm), combined with the boron cantilever and output level (0.4 mV) of Ultra Eminent. This might suggests that sonically it sits somewhere between those two, but having heard neither of the MSL’s this is just speculation.
I like to think the AC-6 combines the best of both ’worlds’. Just kiddin’ of course, but it’s definitely a highly ’neutral’ (or ’balanced’ if you prefer) cartridge with an incredibly dynamic presentation. They do sell the AC-6 in Japan, perhaps because Accuphase as a more mainstream brand has an attraction to ’one brand’ customers, unlike an amplifier specialist like Airtight.
lewm, let Dover win. He has a history of replying the way he does. You gotta wonder if that type of personality is the same face to face. If so, I feel sorry for them.
I went from a Lyra Titan i to a My Sonic Lab Gold Signature. I love it.
When I was researching, a friend pointed me to My Sonic. I had a discussion with a dealer of Lyra, MSL and Koetsu and he said on a spectrum you could generalize that Lyra was the more analytical to the Koetsu's more warm sound -- with the MSL in the middle.
I've not heard a Koetsu cart. But, I would generally agree that the MY Sonic has more body and soul (to my ears) than the Lyra Titan i. Of course, that Titan is not the newer generation of the Lyra carts. Another audiophile, who set up my cart, said the MSL is one of the most "supple carts" he's ever heard. And he's heard A LOT of them.
Anyhow, that's what I know...and I'm super pleased with the MSL Gold Sig. Hope this helps.
At each pricepoint the differences are small, so if you get a deal on a particular brand you are getting value for money.
I like to think the AC-6 combines the best of both ’worlds’. Just kiddin’ of course, but it’s definitely a highly ’neutral’ (or ’balanced’ if you prefer) cartridge with an incredibly dynamic presentation.
That describes MSL perfectly. From that description the AC-6 is closer to the original MSL than the Air Tight. I know one very high end TT manufacturer ( who hates direct drive ) whose reference is the MSL Platinum - the dynamics are why he uses it for personal listening.
The implicit premise or assumption is based on Aristotelian ''essentialism'' . The conviction that objects have ''essential'' or ''accidental'' properties. Because of his influence in Western education this assumption is still present despite the facts that his ''teaching'' is refuted by Galileo in physic and logic and methodology by Frege. Then we have Ikeda's cantileverless kinds as well Decca's.
Truth versus authority. In western ''culture'' there was confusion between those two. That is why Aristoteles ruled for 2000 years in western education. Because of his ''authority''. For my American friends who are interested in ''phylosophical questions'' I can recommend their own Willard van Orman Quine about essentialism in his ''From a logical point of view'' ( p. 22, 155 and 158). I am sure that his authority is much bigger than my (grin).
I note that you are very invested in philosophy, logic and reason.
I was wondering what thoughts you might have to explain why some folk sincerely believe they know what a product sounds like without ever having heard it, nor the system in which the proposed purchase is to be used.
Dear dover, I realize the limitation of grammar with ''Subject (is) Predicate'' sentence form while all kind of comparisons we use assume ''relational statements'' like in our forum with ''better than,,,''; ''more important than...'' etc. relations . Those can't be expressed with ''subject - predicate '' sentence form, To put this otherwise not everything can be expressed in terms of properties or qualities of objects. Take for example expression ''brother'' . Everybody thinks to know what this expression means. But ''brother'' is not some object with specific properties. It is actually an place in family ordering. It depends from the extension of the family who all are brothers and sisters. In industrial countries ''family'' is reduced to ''household'' with ''dad , mom and kids'' but in an agricultural society family is much larger and consequently more names are invented to name each member. I myself have no ''born brother'' but do have many brothers and sisters in Serbia related to me via uncles , ants etc. family of my ''dad line'' and my ''mother line''. Problem with ''names'' is that thy don't have always exact reference .
Dear dover, If you mean Lew by ''some folk'' I need to explain his way of thinking. He usually make his assertion explicit and deduce from those other statements. He of course also assume that if his assertion (premise) are not true than also deduced statement can't be true. This a kind of ''self- evident'' precaution by theoretical thinking. I can't remember that he ever ''claimed truth'' for his statements.
Dear dover, I have seen Lewn reaction at your post and assumed that he was your ''target'', That is the consequence of unclear reference . I even considered to involve Kant in our discussion with his distinction between ''pure reason'' and ''experience'' in order to explain ''the base'' or ''essence'' of mathematics. Anyway my intention was to proclaim logic as ''pure reason'' and defend my friend lew as ''pure thinker'' who ''only reacted '' at statements of others and not at their ''experience''. This way I would put you by the ''empiricist '' (knowledge based on experience) and Lew as ''theoretical thinker'' based on ''pure reason'' (grin). This would be my ''way out'' from the difficult position to chose between two persons which I both like.
If a Product is designed to be assembled using a Specific Body Material, Magnet, Coil Wire, Cantilever and Stylus, but has a different suspension specification and Output, there will in my mind be traits that are presenting quite similar across Items being produced with such similar assemblies of materials. The Ortofon Family of Kontrapunkt and Cadenza's are a testament to this, as it is quite easy to identify the traits of the design intent when hearing the presentation offered across a few Cartridges within these two design era's. How each item with similar materials and design, separates its presentation to another when heard in a particular system, where a suitably matched interface is also addressed, is only to be understood accurately when able to assess the presentation in person. As always in HiFi ones assessment they have encountered a ideal discovery, is in another's assessment one to be added to the discard list.
Dover, Duraluminum is just one of the many compositions of aluminum, basically it's 2024. Commercially pure aluminum is very soft and weak, not useful for much of anything. When I used to make parts for my racing motorcycles out of aluminum I would have to take into consideration all the factors that the part would be stressed to before choosing the proper alloy. My most used were 2024, 3003, 6061 and 7075.So strictly speaking we call anyone of those above alloys aluminum although they all have different chemical and physical properties. The main ingredient by far is still aluminum. Is steel really steel? Even more confusing than aluminum for most people is steel composition. There are thousands of different recipes for the alloys of steel that are used around us. Careful selection for the application just like the aluminum alloys is required. And just like aluminum, heat treating can change the physical properties of the material drastically. Being a machinist it's just one of the many facets of the trade that one must learn to become truly effective. It's also why I keep material handbooks in my library.
I've heard the Ultra EX as well. I think it is different enough from the Hyper, that one may like one or the other. But I don't know if one can come to a foregone conclusion that one is better than the other. I could have been happy with either.
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