WC,
Realism is used consistently in your description of the MAC 2301 sonic character. I interpret this to mean a more convincing sense of live musicians presence and less reproduced or electronic /Hifi character. Is this what you mean or am I inferring you comments incorrectly?
Charles |
Line Magnetic is a different case with some of their models. The 219ia and 508ia are genuine high quality sounding amplifiers. As always YMMV.
Charles |
Agree on LM...I have owned them including the 508 last year. Wait till you have a problem thou. Have fun sending back that 120 Pound monster 219. Lots of Buzz/Humming problems with various LM amps unfortunately. You can go on the Steve Hoffman Forums and no matter which LM Amp you do a search on you will find people with problems...mostly the ones listed above. |
BTW the guy who bought my 508 had problems a few months after he got it from me and he ditched it immediately. Lucky I moved it when I did. |
Riaa,
Sorry to hear that. A couple of members on this site own the LM 508ia and at least thus far haven't experienced those problems. They rave about its sound quality.
Charles |
No problem with sound quality until the transformer hum starts. Also better live in a house with a great ventilation system. I wouldnt be able to use the 508 for more than 4-5 months out of the year due to the heat it throws off. |
WCSS, I wonder if tube rolling in the BHK monos would provide a more extended top end? |
I know WC,
BHK 300s sucks.
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WC,
After hearing the BHK 300s in my system, I agree with your comments, because I found the same thing when I compared them to the Jeff Rowland 625 S2....highs not as detailed, level of realism is not there, things dont POP out of the speaker. The BHK 300s and Rowland 625 S2 are the same price. Although my system/room is different, the results with the BHK 300s were the same. |
Well I left the bhk 300s on all night long. I want them to be fully warm when I try to listen again today. I also have them with Wireworld silver 7 power cords which is what I used the first time I played them briefly.
Let’s see what happens. I still don’t think the pass 200.8 will kill the 2301s. Let’s wait and see. One thing that I HATE about pass labs is having to wait one hour to 2 hours for them to sound best. That is never the case with the 2301s. Those things sound good dead cold.
To those 2301 owners: forget about that crappy C1100 preamp. I’ve owned it and it’s nowhere near the ref10.
The ref10 is THE BEST PREAMP I’ve owned hands down. Never ever questioned that. I can’t wait to see what they replace it with.
I also heard that the ayre twenty preamp is supposed to be mind blowing?
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Are you off the Luxman C-900u pre now? Earlier in the thread I thought it was a favorite. The Ref 10 leagues better?
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I have a pair of BHK 300s driving Joesph Audio Perspectives. You need to roll the tubes if you want them to sound their best. The top end on my system is crystal clear. |
I don’t have any luxman gear at this time. |
I agree that the Ayre KX-R twenty is a terrific preamp, but I have never listened to the REF 10 to compare. I have heard the Ref 6 on several occasions. |
ARC Ref6 and Ref10, Luxman C900u, Ayre KXR 20.
All 4 are the sota. It’s a matter of taste and system synergy in choosing one.
Personnaly, I like the C900u...less expensive, with tone controls, etc. |
ricred1, thanks for your comparison of the Rowland 625 to the BHK. How would you characterize the mids/highs of the Rowland--warm, or neutral, or cold/dry? |
WC, as a few people said, try different tubes in the BHK before you finish with it. On p 63 of your thread, I described how Roger Majeski's best tubes with the lowest noise transformed the tonal character of my Theta tube preamp to more neutral, less sweet, more extended highs. He is still in business at RAM tube works, or tubeaudiostore.com. Call him and discuss your needs, or ask anyone with tube experience on this thread where they get their tubes. I also find it enlightening that you find the Mac2301 so superior. I have an open mind to any technology that produces the lowest distortion and the sound I want. I remember you said that the 601 reduced the highs on the Magico a bit, but since you heard more highs from the 2301, do you find that the 2301 has better highs than anything else you have heard? Perhaps the "pop" you describe from the 2301 relates to more transient response in the highs, or does the "pop" apply to all instruments from bass to treble? That 2301 is certainly a keeper, and may be the best tube amp out there for so many criteria. The 2301 also deserves experimentation with the best tubes. It may involve moderate cost and maintenance, but as you said about the Magicos, it is worth it. |
viber: i am not done yet with the bhk300s. I am going to keep doing more comparisons with them and also let them sit idling for a while to see what happens to their sound:
UPDATE: A good connection of mine has done business with me today. I will be picking up 2 components from a brand i have no experience with: BAT. I am going to be picking up the bat 600se amplifier and the REX VERSION 1 tube preamp.
Now we will do a full shoot out here and things will get A HELL OF ALOT more interesting with a new preamp in the mix. |
Thanks to everyone who enlightened me on the true character of the Rogue. I had stated that my knowledge of the Rogue only came from reviews, so I am thankful for the real reports from users with personal experience. |
viber6,
" How would you characterize the mids/highs of the Rowland--warm, or neutral, or cold/dry?"
In the context of my system I submit the 625 S2 is neutral. It really takes on the character of the recording. Several Audiogon members have heard my system and have made the following comments...good resolution and quick, some songs have bite, warm, great soundstage.
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Hello Viber, while I have not listened to the M625 S2 yet, I have personal experience with a number of Rowland amps in my own system, including my current M925 monos.
Definitely, the tone of current rowland amps is far from being dark/dry, nor on the other hand is it "warm"... At least if warm implies a preferential treatment to mid bass up to midrange.... "Neutral" might apply, in the meaning of the original Latin word "neuter", meaning "neither of the two", in that Rowland seems to give even treatment to the full audible frequency spectrum.... On the other hand, seems that "neutral" for many has come to imply blanched, having a paucity of mid harmonics, mixed with some etched treble frequencies.
So I would rather characterize Rowland as linear across the frequency spectrum, with well defined first harmonics extending from the lower bass up to the high treble... But at the same time they exhibit a high degree of harmonic complexity and exposure. This means that for a partial synesthese like me, acoustic instruments are bristling with harmonic barbules... I can hear with most any instrument.... From double bass to violin, piano, harpsichord, low to high brass, woodwinds, etc...
Treble intermodulation is limited to the benign type which is created by psychoacoustic effect... Those eery third notes that one can sometimes perceive with live instruments on certain treble chords which seem to be emanating from the middle of our head... Lots of those in good recordings of Bach Sonatas and Partitas for violin, for example, and by the interaction of flute and clarinet towards the end of the first section of the 2nd movement in Dvorak 9th under Bernstein and the Israel Phil. Conversely, these Rowland components typically do not generate audible levels of distortive and harsh intermodulation at perceivable levels.
But I will let Richard comment on his M625 S2 in particular.
G.
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Tomorrow: BAT gear makes its first appearance here. Will it disappoint?
We shall see...
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Imagine it gives ´´the spank’´ to your Ref10. 🤭 |
We shall see....
anyhow, tonight I’ve been listening back and forth between the bhk300s and the 2301s but today I chose different music. I chose more electronic music and I would say the bhk300s edges out the 2301s with this kind of music. It totally throws a bigger picture. Let’s just say for instance deadmau5. If you play a couple of his tracks you can see the bhk will give you a Little more width and depth. If you then switch to Adele, then the 2301s will engage you more. They will make you sit down and listen longer. No amp is perfect for everything. Anyone who tells you that is a liar. You need to realize that there’s no perfect amp. |
Guidocorona,
Thanks for your honest assessment of the Rowlands. I have enjoyed reading your reviews and comments the past few years. As for the M925 which uses the NC1200 like the Merrill Veritas and Mola Mola Kaluga, I wonder if you have heard the Mola Mola amp and can comment on the relative tonal qualities and resolution of these 3 products using that NC1200. I had thought the Mola Mola uses the best implementation of the NC1200 since Bruno Putzeys is the designer of the NC1200 and wanted to make his own Mola Mola stand out. It is the most expensive unit, except for the Rowland 925 which is much more costly. Sometimes words like neutral, warm, cool, dry, dark have ambiguous meanings to different people, but if you compare products using whatever words you want, things take on a closer meaning, especially with reference to different pieces of music, as you have eloquently done in your reviews. As for the warm word, I don't refer to it as pertaining to emphasis on lower frequencies, since I have heard amps that are diminished in these lower frequencies, but they have sweetness and harmonic richness in the midrange which I characterize as warm. As I have said, take a walk outside and listen to the sounds of nature--the wide open space of the wind, birds, and the harder sounds of crickets, hammers/saws, car and truck honking horns. Then listen to street musicians and singers outdoors uncorrupted by the acoustics of soft auditorium materials like wood and chair fabrics. These natural sounds are not harmonically rich, they just ARE as they ARE, produced by the friction of rubbing or struck surfaces or air turbulence, just like musical instruments. For example, Boston Symphony Hall has no carpeting or fabric on the chairs, and the sound is cooler, less harmonically rich than Carnegie Hall with its plush chairs and carpeting. That's what I have heard in both halls. |
Did you roll the tubes in the BHK 300s? There is a wealth of information on the PS Audio website, discussion forum. |
No i havent rolled any tubes on the preamp.
Ok guys: the BAT 600se amp sounded decent when I first plugged it in then then at about the 2 hour mark it began to hit its stride. I really think this amp is amazing for the money. This amp really doesn’t lack anything. I can’t think of a bad thing to say about it. It is clear, powerful, dead quiet and it runs hot as hell but hey it’s great bargain. This amp could be the best amp I’ve owned for under $5500 street price. |
How does the BAT 600se compare to the Pass Labs 250.8/350.8? |
Let’s keep something into perspective: im using the ref10 as my preamp which im sure helps the amp tremendously. What I hear it is capable of might not be something some of you would be able to hear if you have subpar preamps.
I’d say this amp can hold its own against the 350.8, hegel. No it won’t beat the luxman.
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You go WCSS. I like the real opinion. I'll Pass on that. LOL. The Magico S3 is your helper with what works. Me like it.
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whitecamaross
Looking forward to your review of the B.A.T. REX vs. ARC Ref110 pre-amps. Happy Listening!
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WC, thanks for your initial comments on the BAT amp. What is the tonal balance--mellow, neutral, extended in highs/bass, sweet or neutral or cool in the midrange, etc.? I thought you were going to try the BAT 655se. I am most looking forward to your listening with the Lux M900u--it should be a treat with your Magicos.
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Some of the best bang for the buck I’ve heard is the Rex preamp with the bhk300s Monos. Id say this combo is awesome and about 80% of the ref10 and mc2301s. Highly recommended for those of you that can’t afford the 2301/ref10. |
WC, how do compare the BAT600se to the BHK300? Maybe the BAT is an even better bang for the buck, and even better on an absolute basis? Also, we were referring to tube rolling for the BHK, although doing so for the Mac2301 and the Ref10 and the BAT Rex opens up so many more possibilities. Try Roger Majeski's tube service. He also has made Music Reference tube amps for years.
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Bhk: musical amps. Good mids and highs. Certainly enough for most people.
Bat 600se: a work horse that reminds me of krell due to its massive size. Awesome dynamics and true to the source. Nothing is lacking in my opinion. This amp is a steal for what it typically sells for. |
viber6
what is the difference between a B.A.T. 655se and 600se ?
Happy Listening!
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The big BAT solid state amps are beasts, they punch even more powerful than spec.
i don’t think the are as “bright” as a Krell. Bass is close, smoother than a Krell I think.
Victor builds good stuff. |
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jafant, I don't know much about BAT except what I read. My guess is that the 655se is an update to the 600se. The 2008 Absolute Sound review of the 600se says it has a hint of loss of highs. Has roysq personally heard them and agrees with that assessment? WC may need more time to verify this also. Music Direct owns BAT, so their opinion is probably biased. I get the impression that the sales staff at Music Direct is too busy with diverse orders that they don't sit down and listen much, the way old fashioned dealers do. Certainly the opinions of WC, roysq and others here with personal experience carry more weight with me. |
I was suggesting that you roll the tubes in the BHK 300s. |
Guys:
the bat is great. No real loss of anything in my opinion and it has balls. Amazing component. |
I will be demoing Lux 900u paired with Nagra Classic preamp in november, psyched.
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WC and all,
As an interesting experiment, bypass the preamp by connecting your source to the power amp. In my case, I use the volume control on my Benchmark DAC which is not bypassable. All line stages suck because the circuit always loses information, transparency or whatever you want to call it. The increase in dynamics from the extra line stage is not worth it to me. Often more distortion and fat bloating is perceived as increased dynamics. Along with the increased dynamics, you also get loss of focus, loss of highs and the murky/confused spatial effects that go with these losses. An example of the dynamics/clarity tradeoff is an old school tube preamp or amp which may have increased fullness and dynamics compared to a more accurate SS piece. Another example relating to speakers is the accurate Magico compared to the Focal. The Focal has more dynamics but it is not as accurate as the Magico, according to WC's listening observations. Many mini monitors give the illusion of more dynamics and bass due to the mid bass bump, but of course this is not true accurate bass. The line stage gives a smaller version of this effect. If your source doesn't have a volume control, just choose an appropriate musical selection where unity (0 dB) gain on the preamp gives a satisfactory volume level, and you will hear the vast difference with and without the preamp. Of course, most of your music will require different gains on the preamp, but this experiment is enlightening. I resent paying big bucks for a SOTA line stage that still corrupts my music. I am able to bypass the line stage by using my DAC volume control. With my phono stage that doesn't have a volume control, I do need another method of volume control. I use the admittedly cruder volume control on my Rane ME60 EQ, which I find absolute necessary for the reasons I posted recently, and several people here confirmed the necessity of an EQ unit. I agree with techno_dude who said the use of the EQ is life-changing.
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Hello Viber, in WC's case, he might not be able to bypass the linestage.... Esoteric, in its masterful lack of wisdom, has not implemented a gain attenuator on K1's analog output.
G. |
Guido, true, but for a limited selection of musical excerpts, WC and others can choose something where unity gain (about 12:00 mid position on many preamps) gives the correct volume level so the bypass test can be done. Obviously, level match by ear or by measurement. At a minimum, the bypass test has great educational value. For full flexibility in volume control, I regard the crude volume control on my Rane a slight handicap compared to the overwhelming benefit of bypassing the line stage and using the EQ of the Rane to yield overwhelming benefits. The electronics of the Rane circuits are very good, more transparent than many audiophile line stages I have tried, although admittedly I have not tried the super expensive ones that many people here are using. Once people realize the ultra importance of the EQ, I challenge anyone to demonstrate that adding any line stage on top of the EQ gives benefits without the tremendous drawbacks of the added sonic impurities introduced by the line stage.
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Sure, if the unity gain point on WC's REF10 is clearly identified, he could then choose a few musical selection that are not going to blast his ears at that level.... But I fear that relying on the conjecture of a "in most cases" approach, might end in some unpleasant circumstances... Risky behavior in my audiophilic book.
G. |
Guido, I agree with the potential risks, although they are mitigated by the basic practice of having the power amp off when you unplug and plug in, the way I'm doing it. With my 75-77 dB very low efficiency electrostatic speakers, unity gain yields a comfortable moderate volume level, although for conventional speakers with 10 or more dB higher efficiency, the musical selection for the bypass test could be a soft voice, instrumental solo, or soft brushes on the drum to avoid the blasting effect. Another option is the Music First passive transformer based volume controlled "preamp." I heard one of the models in several repeated bypass tests in someone's system, and there was NO difference. There's even a plus 6 dB switch, which produced NO difference, and gives the option of that 6 dB of gain for those who want it. The Music First has high quality switches, rotary attenuator and lots of inputs, so anyone--show me an active line stage that equals it in terms of clarity and uneditorialized neutrality. I didn't live with the Music First at home, so I might have missed something.
Guido, did you A/B the Rowland 925 with the Merrill Veritas, Mola Mola Kaluga implementations of the NC1200? Thanks for commenting.
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Thank You - viber6
Happy Listening! |
whitecamaross
are you comparing the ARC REF10 and B.A.T. REX
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