One hour into my listening session and I’m having mixed feelings. Yesterday I was very impressed and today im like in the middle. Not sure if it’s that this amp goes through that phase where it sounds bad and then it gets better with time ? I have read that there are certain amps go through a process of charging and discharging their capacitors before they sound good. I believe the Jeff Rowland 925s are the amps that go through this process.
Anyhow, one interesting thing Is that I’ve been playing with switching the speaker cables from the 4ohm to 8ohm connections to see what happens. My speakers are a 4ohm load but I connected one speaker on the 4ohm tap and the other one on the 8ohm and I hear more midrange on the speaker that’s connected on the 8ohm connection. Very interesting indeed.
On another note, this amp is starting to give me the impression that it is unforgiving. Although it's tubes, it still is transparent enough to let you hear bad recordings sound bad. This wasn't the case with the Levinsons. They sounded pretty much good with any sort of source and the sonus fabers.
|
I think it's good that you responded to lalitk. I made similar comments before, but your response to lalitk put everything into perspective. I've reached out to you through PMs several times and I appreciate that you took the time to respond. Keep writing and I'll keep reading.
|
|
Well said! It's unfortunate that you have to explain yourself. I don't understand why lalitk felt like the comment was necessary. I think most other folks here appreciate your comparisons and experiences that you've shared. Plus, you've even given advice to some (me included!)
Thanks for the fun and the information - I'm truly enjoying it!
Dave
|
Hi guys,
a couple of things I want to discuss:
lalitk:-- the added statement you made about my end game being to sell for a profit isn't really the case. First off, I don't have to keep this thread alive in order for me to do what you stated above. I could do that without sharing any of my findings with any of you. I've spent close to half a million dollars since I started this thread. i share this with you all and YOU ALL take my feedback and make a decision as to what you want to buy. I don't hold a gun to anybody's head forcing them to buy anything.
That said, i also want to add that MANY OF YOU have messaged me asking for amp and speaker recommendations on my experience and some of you have even bought amps from me and have been very happy with my recommendations.
If you all want to go spend the same money I've spent in order to do a trial and error until you find what you want then sure you can do that.
Fsonicsmith---- I've owned other tube amps. If you followed my thread you'd see I've owned the McIntosh mc2301s, mc275 mk6.
Minorl---- I appreciate your view on what I'm trying to do here. I'm glad you find my thread of much use in search of the best amp for your current set up. You and many others are what make me want to keep this thread alive. I've had phone conversations with some of you who have thanked me for keeping this thread going. I don't bullshit or sugar coat any product. I leave that for dealers and magazines to do. That's their job. Not mine.
As i stated before, I gain nothing from keeping this thread alive. Dealers don't pay me to help them move any product at all. I hand pick my amplifiers based on price and resale value and if it's a product that I feel has synergy or potential to to take my system to the next level. If some of you find my thread biased, wrong, not accurate etc then don't follow my thread. Change the channel and move on to reading somebody else's thread.
My thread is one of the few threads that is constantly updated and keeps going and so it will always have a following. If I had a YouTube channel and did my own reviews, I'd probably be making money from YouTube from all the views I'd have. It's simple and easy to do but I also have a family and a life and don't have time to put that effort in.
Once again, take my feedback about amps as my personal input. Not everyone will agree with my input but some of you will agree with it. With that said, let me go downstairs and continue to listen to my gs150 / ref6 preamp combo. Cheers ! |
my apologies for misunderstand. Regarding the REF 6, this is the only purchase I have ever made where I hadn't heard it before purchase. I've heard the REF 5 vs the REF 3 and the REF 5 was "slightly and I mean slightly" better than the REF 3 which didn't warrant me buying the REF 5. However, the REF 5SE vs the REF 3 was a different story entirely. My friends heard the comparison and loved the REF 3 and couldn't understand how the REF 5 SE was that much better. Now we are at the REF 6. Well, I've heard the REF 10 and if I had the funds I would have bought the REF 10 outright. Wow! what a pre-amp. Everyone I know that has heard the REF 6 told me that it really is that much better than the REF 5SE as the REF 5SE was over the REF 3. It must be a trickled down REF 10. I'm really looking forward to getting it. enjoy |
Since when is "reseller" a bad word? You are mounting a defense to an imagined attack. I envy the deal you got on your Ref 6-congrats. |
I'm sorry, maybe I'm missing something but, what difference does it make if he is a reseller? The real question to me would be are the equipment reviews helpful. To me they are not only helpful, but entertaining. I actually think this is very nice. Magazines don't do this. Not only are most products they review the "best ever" but, they only typically compare with one or two products. This is actually a progression in performance as seen from the OPs perspective. A is better than B in certain ways, and C is better than B in certain ways. On and on. this is quite informative. I've been in this for quite some time and yes, I only really rely on my experience and hearing when making purchase decisions. But, it can't hurt to read others experiences and thoughts. And I also am a cyclist with many bikes. Not an inexpensive hobby either. On the bike or sitting listening to music with a glass of wine a good book and maybe a partner? Hmmm??? I'm enjoying this. Waiting for my REF 6 to arrive also. With Audio Research's trade up program, they give (gave?) 75% of MSRP on older equipment towards new equipment. 75% is better than used price. enjoy |
Going by the history of this thread, I don’t think OP has ever owned anything more than couple of months. I believe he is a reseller who has been graciously sharing his personal experiences. The end game is to churn high end components for profits. My two cents!
Yes. I suppose it would be rude to ask how much money this journey has cost based upon purchase price vs. resale price. Care to share Whitecamaross? It would likely make me feel better as to how much I just spent :-). |
@fsonicsmith,
"So crazy to me whitecamaross that you’ve stayed away from good tube amplification for so long. I can’t remember if your preamp is the Ref 5se or 6 (or other)......."
Congrats on the awesome ARC gear, hope you enjoy the music for years to come!
Going by the history of this thread, I don’t think OP has ever owned anything more than couple of months. I believe he is a reseller who has been graciously sharing his personal experiences. The end game is to churn high end components for profits. My two cents!
|
@fsonicsmith Are you stocked up on essentials? You might not be leaving your listening room. Congratulations!
So kind of you, thx. I am going to be 58 soon. I used to spend small fortunes on custom made bicycles. I broke my hip in November and suffered some complications that continue. Haven't sold my stable of exotic bikes but decided life is too short to listen to less-than-thrilling gear. I have also decided to invest in a RoomPlay session with Jeff Smith. |
@fsonicsmith Are you stocked up on essentials? You might not be leaving your listening room. Congratulations! |
So crazy to me whitecamaross that you've stayed away from good tube amplification for so long. I can't remember if your preamp is the Ref 5se or 6 (or other), but as good as the GS150 is, the Ref 6 is reported by most in the know to be even better. I ordered my Ref 6 a month ago but thanks to summer break and ARC's method of manufacturing batches of one component and then another in 10-piece increments, my Ref 6 only recently arrived at my dealer. I picked it up last night and will hook it up to my brand new Ref 150se tonight. When I picked up my Ref 6, my dealer had it hooked up and running at my request and with other top-tier gear the sound was amazing right out of the box. Are you running balanced from preamp to amp? PC with the GS150? |
Cables should be next on my list. Right now I'm just getting acquainted with the sound signature of this amp. |
ARC and SF speakers are a sonic match. Chose cabling carefully and you are set! Happy Listening!
|
I can’t believe how "laid back" my 350.8 sounds when compared to the GS150 That’s exactly how I felt when comparing the XA-160.5 to the ARC REF 250. Cheers |
Nice update Whitecamaross! I have on order the icon audio stereo 30se using KT150 tubes! 😊
|
@whitecamaross,
PM me, when you're ready to sell the GS150. |
ok guys... i couldn’t resist so i pulled the plug on the audio research gs150 today. i have had it playing for about 2 hours and here are my brief impressions:
1. Gobbs of detail. Layer of detail on top of detail. Think of it as ordering your favorite alcoholic drink, but add an extra shot of liquor. in other words, twice as much detail as before.
2. i don’t recognize my music. It feels as if each song now sounds different in a good way. Crazy separation and background noises that i didnt hear before.
3. i do not have to turn it up to make the music come alive. I hear every nuance, detail, and particle of each song at low volume.
4. FAR, BUT FAR FAR FAAAAAAAAR BETTER match than the pass labs 350.8 is with my sonus faber cremonese. It is not even close in terms of detail. I can’t believe how "laid back" my 350.8 sounds when compared to the GS150. Audio Research and Sonus Faber synergy is UNDENIABLE.
Those are my initial impressions. More to come later this week! |
Gs150 to be discontinued in 2 months. Dealers who have inventory will be unloading these at dealer cost perhaps. I decided to wait and snatch one once the dust settles. |
I hate to say this. But your
Thinking you need a new amp. Think about another
Area. Like those 2 big tall things. Don't take this the wrong was. |
"GS150 is going to be discontinued" ~ Hope the surplus from ARC shows up on Audiogon. If the price is attractive I will grab one in a heartbeat as they are simply gorgeous and a nice break from good old industrial look, IMHO.
|
Fsonicsmith if you roll KT150s in your Ref150se it will sound like the GS 150! kw6, the Ref150se was designed and built around the KT150. It comes with KT150's. As I mentioned earlier in this long thread, I contacted ARC and asked if there was any sonic difference between the Ref 150se and GS150 and the response was that they are sonically identical. Whitecamaross says he was told the GS150 is going to be discontinued. If this is true, one explanation is that most AR buyers are going to do a little research (pun) and can't justify $5000 for meters, easier biasing, and nicer casework. |
whitecamaross AMPLIFIERS SOUND BEST WHEN CONNECTED STRAIGHT INTO THE WALL:
yes!!!!!! This is a true fact. Amps seem to open up more when they have full control of the available electricity. I have tested this theory many times and they always sounded best to me when connected into the outlet. Shouting is not necessary. Your claim may be a "true fact" in your system, but the "true fact" isn’t universal, and certainly isn’t what sounds best in my system. |
Jafant I heard the 4b3 at Hifi Centre in BC Canada!
|
Fsonicsmith if you roll KT150s in your Ref150se it will sound like the GS 150! |
Also some amps have to be left on 24 hrs a day to sound their best too! |
You bring up good points Whitecamaross! Also some speakers don't come alive until driven louder. As I don't listen loud I chose electrostatic speakers. |
Hi guys,
i think it’s time I share a few things that some people don’t seem to understand. I’ve learned most of this due to the vast experience I have with power amps. I don’t go by reviews from magazines which don’t really tell you the full story. I go by my experience and me actually owning the equipment. With that said, here we go:
1. Speakers: who said you need to buy amplifiers with the same or less power than what your speakers can handle ? That’s a stupid mistake. What blows up speakers for the most part is DISTORTION NOT EXCESS CLEAN POWER. If you own a speaker that hands 300 watts and you select an amp that has 150 watts per channel or a second amp with 500 watts per channel, chances are higher that the amp with 150 watts is going to damage the speakers faster than if you were to feed the speakers with more clean power than what they can handle. The less powerful amp will clip and begin to introduce distortion way before the other amp is. This distortion is the prime reason why the speaker would begin to kill its drivers. BUYING AMPS WITH MORE POWER THAN WHAT THE SPEAKERS CAN HANDLE IS NOT A BAD THING!!! It’s actually a good thing !
2. Listening at low volume vs high volume:
it has been brought to my attention that some of you listen at low volume levels. Please keep in mind that each amp sounds very different at different output levels. Some amps only hit their stride at moderate volume and others hit their stride at low and moderate levels. You need to figure out with an actual sound decibel meter how loud you listen on average and then take this into account when you select an amp. I’ve owned amps that fell apart at low volumes and only came to life when you put the pedal to the metal. Some amps sound thin at low volume. Some sound good at low volumes. Choose amplification wisely.
3. AMPLIFIERS SOUND BEST WHEN CONNECTED STRAIGHT INTO THE WALL:
yes!!!!!! This is a true fact. Amps seem to open up more when they have full control of the available electricity. I have tested this theory many times and they always sounded best to me when connected into the outlet.
|
Never heard them. Curious to know what you paid for the reference 6 and 150se. Send me a message and let me know |
Humble Acoustic Zen Adagio's. I like them. |
Very nice. I want to hear that combination you have. What sleakers do you own ?
|
The GS150 is sonically identical to the REf150se, same topology and parts, just different layout and casework/meters. I got that info right from the source. I just unboxed my brand new Ref150se last night. Though it looks a bit plain in the pics over the web, in person it's very handsome in an understated way-bigger than I thought too. Coupled with the looks of the Ref 6 they should look great together (and sound great together). I am waiting for my new Ref 6 to come in from ARC. |
Hi,
i sent you a message in regards to your question.
Ok so I have decided to pass on the audio research tube amplifier. I was about to purchase the gs150 but I just heard it's about to be discontinued due to the poor sales volume. I will wait to snatch one at a very good price and then try it. |
@whitecamaross and others:
What amp would you recommend for 5K or less, new or used?
Not looking for a long list. Just your top recommendation at this price level.
Speaker is efficient, so I don't need mega power. I prefer Class A or Class A/B. Solid State is also preferable.
My current amp is the Spread Spectrum Technologies Son of Ampzilla Mk 2. Top contender is the Pass XA30.8
Thanks.
|
Thank You- denon1
it is important to have excellent instrument separation, air around all instruments, sparkling highs, as I enjoy Jazz music and love the drummer's brushwork on the skins.
Happy Listening!
|
Hi, and thanks for the feedback about the sb301mk1. I certainly feel that this amp is an amp you must keep on at all times in order to sound best.
I also wanted to share with you all that if you remember above, i loved the simaudio 860a. I found it very amazing with a deep and wide soundstage. Anyhow, i have decided to purchase the 870a simaudio amp which is the top of the line and most expensive ($22k) simaudio stereo amp there is. It is dual mono design (2 transformers) and it is supposed to be like the 860a but on steroids.
I am also working on a deal on a Dan D'agostino momentum stereo amplifier. This could potentially mean 5 amplifiers in my living room and the ability to do true comparison tests. For the record, i do not use any sort of power conditioners. All my amps get plugged into the wall directly.
We shall see what happens, but what i can certainly report on is that my 350.8 disappointed me with my sonus fabers. I actually felt that the mark levinsons 536s did a better job. |
I had all pliniuses except SA-Ref. Even so being very good, the SB 301 mk1 I had, drove SF Anniversario. Yes it had great bass, yes it had terrific midrange, but highs were grainy and most important to me - lack of instrument separation in compare with my Pass int-250.8 integrated. But looks like Mk2 version of Sb-301 is much better if it can beat Pass 350.8. I know Vince, great guy, not sure if he still sells pliniuses, since he so involved with msb. In US , I can strongly recommend Eric Love from audio surroundings. He sell plinius brand.
I cant wait until Witecamaross will get a chance to listen to Plunus SA-REF. Vince told me that its in league of its own. |
I dont live anywhere near Buffalo. Have no idea whats in his workshop unfortunately |
Thank You- riaa.
does this gentleman have a listening room? Happy Listening!
|
Whitecamaross-how about posting a pic or two of your back-wall showing your speakers and the wall in between and then one further back from behind your listening chair? Re-reading your OP I see references to multi-channel and HT. Do you have a flat screen between your main speakers? Please tell me "no"!
|
JAFANT,
Call up Vince Galbo at 716-688-3527 He is in NY and he is the guy who repairs all Plinius amps here in the USA. He IS the Plinius guy to talk to. He can probably get you the best deal. He also deals with MSB products as well. He's a pleasure to work with and talk to. |
Whitecamaross- you have an ARC Ref 6 and you are hesitant to try it with the Ref 150se that will inherently be a great match and your hesitation is based on spending $900 (not 1300) after 3000 hrs of listening? In the context of your other expenditures that's a head-scratcher. But forget all that for now-I would bet the ranch that whatever you are searching for with all these amp swaps could be solved/found with careful analysis of your room and speaker placement. Spend some money to save a lot more money; contact Jim Smith of Get Better Sound for a personal "fitting" of your room and room treatment and speaker placement. Hire someone else if you want. Or keep chasing the wrong squirrel if that's your preference. I don't mind-it's fun watching someone else spend a lot of money.
|
whitecamaross-
can you suggest a Plinius dealer/retailer ?
|
hi,
yes there is always is compatibility issues when you change out speakers and amps. Right now, i love my SF more than i loved my 15a martin logans. I can already say that pass labs does not sound better than plinius does with my sonus faber. I can vouch for the amazing sound that is heard with martin logans and pass labs.
Right now, i am looking forward to try a tube amp, but i need to make the right choice before i jump the gun. I will most likely purchasing the arc 150se. |
Whitecamaross,
1) Your journey is quite informative. However, I wonder if you are running into compatibility issues changing both amps and speakers--particularly with your current SFs. Perhaps reacquire a pair of MartinLogan 15 or Monitor 300 IIs to have a reasonably neutral standard?
2) If you want neutral, inexpensive to buy and operate tube amps with lots current into low impedences, try Quicksilver V4s. |
thanks guys. I can honestly say that this hobby gets quite expensive, but many really great moments and smiles on my face make it all worth it. Right now, i am torn over the rogue audio apollo monos or audio research 150se. I am trying to go into a tube amp, but i am quite nervous. Tube amps are sometimes difficult to sell once you are done with them. |
Agreed, this hobby and lifestyle is a crazy, fun, journey. I would not have it any other way. Surprises at many turns as referenced by whitecamaross.
|
Thank You! for the continued coverage- whitecamaross
I have always wanted to demo Plinius - can you suggest a dealer/retailer where I can get a taste? Happy Listening!
|
Thanks! for sharing- ysound.
It must have been quite nice to own all of those amps concurrently for side-to-side comparing. Happy Listening!
|
