To give people two different flavors to compare and let their own ears decide what they like best (yes through YouTube)

rbwnc,

You are correct that these are not double blind tests.  Since Jay is doing the setups, these tests are single blind.  If Jay is honest and diligent, then single blind is valid.  So far, all of Jay's A/B shootouts have been useful on many levels.

But even if someone other than Jay were to do the setups, and Jay just presented the videos, making them double blind, technically we cannot identify the 2 presentations as being specific components.  Nobody but Jay has experience with both the VAC and Soulution + Mephisto, with the Transparent cables, MSB, etc.  All we can do is report what we hear and prefer.  The VAC and other electronics may be atypical examples of tubes and SS, respectively.

rbwnc,

These comparisons are fun - and I enjoy having fun.  I will probably never get to hear this type of comparison in person, so it's fun to at least experience it this way - even though YT doesn't at all equal the in-person listening.  Plus, WC eventually provides his take from in-room listening, which is why those videos are so popular.

Dave

On first listen, i choose Presentation 2 from Video 2

Same thing for me Kren - first listen to Vid 2, I choose Presentation 2.

Dave

Omg I'm loving this!! 

I can't wait to disclose what is what...

Use this shootout as an example of what your ears really like and not what your eyes prefer. There is a difference between both!

Video 2

I too also vote for presentation No. 2.

I honestly don’t care one way or the other which I end up preferring. I do hope I’m consistent in my choices between videos (because if not then what have I really learned?), but if not so be it

I think what this exercise might reveal is that we prefer tubes on some source material, and SS on others.

Certainly possible, but if m hoping I consistently prefer one or the other 

I'm working up to writing up my "non-matrixed" findings, but not quite ready.

Jay, Can you confirm the recording is Sara K:  All Your Love (Turns Into Passion) from the Water Falls record 2002 44.1 16 bit or is it a different version/master?

Thanks

Hey Paul,

All my songs are from the playlist I shared with you all from tidal 

VERY close.  On #1, I hear slightly greater jangle/sparkle on the guitar.  #2 is slightly warmer.  With the E flat note on the guitar at 0:12 it is a little more stark with more transient pop for #1, than at 3:29 for #2.  On the voice, I hear little difference. I choose #1 by a hair.  On this video 2, I believe #1 is SS, whereas on video 1, #2 is SS.

Again, this shows that VAC is less tubey than most other tubes, and competes well with Soulution + Mephisto.

Dave, play that E flat on your guitar and see what you hear.  In a small room, the guitar has more body, but in a very large room resembling a large studio, the guitar has more transient emphasis.

Jay,

Personally, I have enjoyed the challenges of these A/B tests immensely and thank you for your efforts.  However, no amp setup "wins."  It is not meaningful which setup is voted the highest majority.  What counts is the detailed analysis submitted by a few commenters here or on YT--what they hear, and why they prefer a particular setup.  No voting system captures that.  

Analogy--voting tallies of 100's of people are like having 100's of superficial acquaintances, but a handful of good close friends are much more meaningful.

Video 2 again.  Today I find #1 and #2 too close to definitely call.  Unblinded, I still prefer #1 by a hair.  If someone were to play them for me when I am blinded, I couldn't tell the difference.  I won't be surprised if Jay has thrown a curve ball and says that #1 and #2 are the same electronics for this video 2.

Video 3 is toughest for me. I didn’t have a preference on initial listen. Will need to do again.

Ha, I don’t think he’d do that play same setup for both 1 and 2. That would just piss people off, haha, and make people not take him seriously.

Edit: Tubby bass is with #2 this time. I pick #1 here on third video.

Video 1: #2 is better, IMO.

Video 2: #2 is better, IMO.

Video 3: #1 is better, IMO.

Don’t care which is which, but I’ll be disappointed in myself if I cross-selected between the two systems. Hoping I have a clear preference one way or other from a "take something from this exercise" perspective.

Editx2: Perhaps I wouldn’t be disappointed in myself if it turns out I cross-selected, because I guess that would just show I prefer different systems for different types of music, which is plausible, but I guess I’d hope that I’d find one system superior in all facets - that would be preferable to me anyway

Jay and his YT channel thrive on surprises.  Yes, it might piss some people off, but it would keep others honest.  Those who say that #1 or #2 blows away the other, would be revealed as dishonest.

Well I don’t think anyone is saying this is a landslide either way (at least on this thread, I didn’t read YT comments), which is different from the Rouge v Gryphon trial where myself and Paul and others, and most importantly WC, said not even close. (that is not a rip on the Rouge; the trial should not have been close based on hugely different costs).

With both trials I didn't spend exhaustive time listening.  Two listens at most to any video and just focused on the trait I found most disparate between the presentations - bass quality here in this trial; cohensiveness, and overall togetherness with the earlier trial.  I don't have time to devote to a treatise, haha (not that anyone would care anyway)

OMG now Viber6 is saying  "It is not meaningful which setup is voted the highest majority.  What counts is the detailed analysis submitted by a few commenters here or on YT--...." 

What a crock of $hit! He now is the one to say who's opinion should count! Give me a break. He should be banned from posting here.

Total misrepresentation on your part, rsf507.  Even if you are the one misrepresenting statements, I would not advocate that you should be banned.  But it is clear what your character is.

Here's my detailed analysis.  I preferred these presentations with the music played.  It's possible I would choose differently with different music selections.

 
Vid1 - 1

Vid2 - 1

Vid3 - 2

Cool.  Even though Ron and I are on different sides of the presentations, we agree as to order perhaps being same on first two vids and different on third.  I suppose that's under the assumption that we'd each prefer same electronics across the three songs.  Will be interesting to see the reveal results.

Ok for part 2

once again. I think #1 is more real sounding.

I think #1 is VAC.

for part 3 I like presentation #2.

It sounds more REAL to me. I also think it is the VAC

i agree with Kenr

 Part 1 presentation #1 for me 

Part 2 presentation #1 for me

Part 3 presentation #2 fore me

I also think that these are VAC

Folks,

I can not thank you enough for taking the time to dissect all videos through your systems.

What I want to articulate here is that the reasons for this exercise were as follows:

1. To have fun since some of you are working from home
2. To hear TWO of the BEST amplifiers/preamplifiers
3. To let you hear gear that you probably will never hear in person
4. To let YOUR EARS decide for YOU and not the gear

With that out of the way, PLEASE USE THIS as a data point for your future purchases. If you are a long-time tube lover (greyhound), and you end up finding out that you selected solid state on 2 out of 3 presentations then maybe you are not that much of a tube lover as you thought you were? or maybe you simply love top notch solid state more than top notch tube gear, but you never knew you did because - well you have never compared THIS LEVEL of amplifier/preamp topology ?

The point i am trying to make with these comparisons is that if you are the type of person that will DENY that you preferred the opposite of what you would normally choose then you are pretty much only lying to....YOURSELF... NOBODY ELSE

If you selected tubes instead of the typical solid state you normally own then i suggest you go back to the drawing board....there might be a tube setup you might enjoy more... If you selected solid state instead of tubes and you have a been a tube lover...time to stop heating up your room with those glasses and begin to find solid state gear that checks your boxes.

Thanks again guys!

I actually think the opposite.  I suspect that for videos 1 and 2, presentation 2 was SS, and for video 3, presentation 1 was SS.  That's my guess anyway.  But if it's the opposite and it is tubes that I chose (assuming I did not cross-select, which is big assumption, though we now have three thinking Vids 1 and 2 were same order, switched on vid 3) then I think I will be even more happy because I'd actually love to choose tubes over SS, just don't think that's the way it will roll

Can’t wait for the reveal! 

We need more people to post their findings 

Yes I encourage everyone to post their findings here so we can discuss !

kren0006,

You said, "Editx2: Perhaps I wouldn’t be disappointed in myself if it turns out I cross-selected, because I guess that would just show I prefer different systems for different types ofmusic, which is plausible, but I guess I’d hope that I’d find one system superior in all facets - that would be preferable to me anyway."

This could be true, but another possibility is that the two setups are so close that you randomly selected one type of sound for some of the videos, and another for the other.  In my case, I want clarity and front row type immediacy for any music I enjoy.  I certainly had difficulty with all 3 videos with my computer setup, but no doubt if I were listening in Jay's room and with more precise volume matching, the differences would be greater.  The fact that you and I who normally have different preferences chose the same presentations for some of the 3 videos, supports my contention of random selection of very close presentations.

Video 3 is tough.  I was about to give up and not make a choice, but kren0006 tipped me off about listening to the bass.  Like him, I find the bass on #2 a little tubby.  The string bass is a little more plucky and tight on #1.  My choice is #1 for this video, which I think is SS.

Summary of my choices and guesses of the identities:

Video 1--#2, SS 

Video 2--#1, SS

Video 3--#1, SS

psnyder149,

We are waiting for your summary and analysis.  So far, the handful of listeners here are all over the map in their preferences and guesses of identities.  Assuming everyone has good ears, this proves that these two setups are very close.  

The big revelation is that the VAC is not a classic tube sound, paralleling Mike Fremer's experience.

Great analyses. Will be fun as always to ultimately hear Jay’s synopsis. Looking forward to it. 

Video 1: Strong Presentation 1

Video 2: Dunno

Video 3: Presentation 2, barely

My choices above reflect my preference for that PARTICULAR song.

I suspect that I chose SS in video 1 and tubes in video 3.

My takeaway- I need more samples to form a definitive preference.

I have more samples but people get bored and desperate to find out what is what. I could have made 5 videos but the attention span from many is quite small and this is why I chose a small sample size (3 songs). 

Unfortunately, you didn't record the dynamic drum piece for #1 in video 3.  On #2 it was great.  Great job otherwise, thanks.  

One YT commenter thought he could hear tube hiss.  That would be a way of cheating by knowing the identity of the VAC without critically listening to the music.  But SOTA tube equipment has barely any hiss.  I didn't hear any hiss on my low rez computer.  Do you hear any hiss from the VAC system?

Video 1: + Presentation 1 SS, - Presentation 2 Tube

Video 2: + Presentation 1 SS, - Presentation 2 Tube

Video 3: + Presentation 2 SS, - Presentation 1 Tube

I basically compared all presentation to my audio system playing the same track at same audio levels using a decibel meter. Presentation that I liked most got the + rating.

yes there is some hissing, but it is faint..

drumroll...My take is coming up on the video releasing today at 1pm ET. plus find out which set up was my favorite one!!

Dasign,

It is interesting that on all 3 videos, you and I prefer what we each think is SS, but we differ on the presentations we chose.  On video 1, there was a mismatch in the volumes, which I couldn't correct for, so my choice for video 1 is actually uncertain. Since you matched dB levels, you may be correct all the way.

It starts at 1230 PM E.T. TODAY

Wow,

I was completely wrong about which presentations was tube.

I chose all 3 of the solid-state presentations.

Well, at least I consistently picked the same setup every time. LOL

Of course, I have never heard any of this setup combination anywhere, at any time, prior to this shootout.

Congratulations to the Gryphon/ Solution setup... Simply Amazing. I would have bet that this setup was tubes.

.

Thank You Jay

I am glad you all have learned something through this!!

Keep your mind open to new things. I want to teach you all that there might be stuff out there you are overlooking that could COMPLETELY elevate your system. 

@grey9hound 

I am glad you have seen and heard something you did not think would take you by storm. I am glad and i hope that maybe you can look into a Gryphon amp at some point since you seemed to have liked it. 

I look forward to hearing from the rest of you all . Please let's keep the discussion healthy and engaging  😉

Holy crap, a lot of activity over the past 3 days! Hats off to Jay for giving us something really compelling to dig into! I have been so busy I have only skimmed the posts since mid week and just now had a chance to listen to third video.

Here is the best I got. I think Ron really hit nail on head with his summary that at this level of gear that more the defining factor of which system is preferable has more to do with recording than with tube vs. solid state.

I have almost no confidence that I know which is which. Or even from video to video…. I can guess but it is nothing more than a gut feeling guess. On video 1 and 3 I hear something that doesn’t sound quite right on presentation 2 and presentation 1 respectively. On video 2, I think I hear that same characteristic but it makes the recording sound better to me…. But I am splitting atoms at this point. Kren, I agree both sound great.

But my final choice of preferences is:

video 1, presentation 1

video 2, presentation 2

video 3, presentation 2

The only thing I might bet money on is that I am NOT consistent in which system I preferred, nor even that I am consistently able to determine which system is which (without even going the extra step of saying tube or SS)!

Finally, I think that by far the single most limiting factor in this is the miking/YouTube limitations. Comparing the source material to the YouTube presentations reveals just how inferior this test is and I would not be surprised if were hearing the recordings at Jay’s would likely result in both more consistency as well as an ability to clearly discern which is which. But talking out of both sides of my mouth, I still would not be the least surprised if the answer to the question of “Which do you prefer?” Is,… It depends. Different music, different mood, different recording, different relative humidity (lol) may yield a different preference. I still would most like to hear the VAC preamp with the Gryphon Mephistos at Jay’s with a glass of French Pinot Noir at my lips. I think that could just be magic!

Jay, thanks for a super fun trial in the dead of winter. Kudos galore to you!

******

Quick note:  I noticed that Jay just posted the results while I was typing my review.  I just wanted to state for the record that I posted this before watching the video (in fact I still haven't watched!).  So no cheating on my part!   whether it makes me look better or worse!!!  lol

@psnyder149 

Thank you !

Wow. Amazing results. I am very happy that my hearing was able to pick a consistent setup, but I’m even happier to be surprised that the choice was tubes. Very interesting. Now I wonder whether it would be same in room

@jays_audio_lab Nice videos. I’m not sure anyone can come to conclusions based on the fact that there are a number of variables that still should be taken into consideration before generally claiming that ss is the winner, or tubes are the winner. Those variables are the synergy that the gear has with your speakers, the cabling ( which could favor one type of gear vs another) and many other aspects ( room, tube type etc).

You did mention that you do not know how KT150’s would sound, as an example. This is a very good point, as I believe that the results would probably sway a number of folks. VAC gear has a particular sound, some like, some not, same as your Gryphon gear. I think you can say this, in your room, with your set up, this is what a VAC tube system sounds like, and this is what a Gryphon/ Soolution set up sounds like, with the particular pieces of music that you chose..and nothing much more than that.

My point, a generalization about the sound of tube gear vs. ss gear at this level really cannot be had from your videos. What people prefer on the Youtube video and with their listening preference attached to your particular set-ups, then yes...a preference can be attained.

BTW, you mention a mix of Gryphon ss amps and the VAC preamp, I can easily see why that would sound very good...as IME tube preamps are usually where the ’goodness’ of tubes is at..vs tube amps ( if that makes sense). So, with the VAC preamp and the ss Gryphon amp you are probably getting the best of both worlds. Now, here’s something to try, use the Soolution 725 preamp and the VAC amps...;0)