Just focus on each video as individual videos. Choose which one you like.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
Very close comparison on round 2, perhaps more difficult than the already difficult round 1. By a very narrow margin, I again prefer #1 to #2, as I think #1 in round 2 is the same amp as #1 in round 1. At first I decided to concentrate on the loud dynamic part at 5:40 for #1 and 11:55 for #2. Very very close, maybe #1 is more fierce on those scary thunder/lightning-like blasts, the way it should be for these sounds, so #1 is more accurate and detailed, but only by a fraction of a hair. The quiet guitar twangs followed by the voice, "it's a mystery ..." starting at 0:48 for #1 and 7:00 for #2 are more revealing of the differences. #1 shows the guitar slightly more sparkly crisp and with more delicate nuance than #2. The voice is more raw and dry on #1 and warmer on #2. The lesson is that low level detail from quiet music is better at differentiating amps or anything than banging away with loud stuff. With the stock power cords and Straight Wire speaker cables on round 2, I come to the same conclusions as in round 1 with Transparent all the way. Since round 2 was more difficult for me than round 1, I think that the Transparent cables are more revealing of the differences than the stock + Straight Wire cables. Since the amps are so close, I could imagine that if I think #1 is more detailed than #2 with the all Transparent system, then #2 might be more detailed than #1 if #1 is handicapped with stock + Straight Wire, but another shootout would need to be done to confirm this. I would suggest a future shootout could be done with Jay's amps between all Transparent and stock + Straight Wire. Apparently Jay has already done this for himself. He found that within seconds, the Transparent was shown to open up the universe. I defy anyone to reliably say within seconds which amp he prefers. It took me many back and forth trials over the last hour to come to any conclusions, and I am still not totally sure. I could change my mind tomorrow. |
Derek, 5:43 vs 11:55 is for macro dynamic force. 0:48 vs 7:00 is for micro detail. Perhaps most revealing is the spoken male voice right after the delicate guitars. Normally the voice for music should have a little natural warmth, but this recording is designed to be fierce, fitting the tense subject of "private investigations" so I think that just like the closing fierce crashes at 5:43 and 11:55, the spoken voice should not sound romantic, but should be scary and raw. I find #1 best communicates what the engineers and composer intended for this piece. |
So i uploaded the 3rd demo last night and YouTube sends me an email that the song i had selected was blocked completely and i can’t share the video... Here’s the kicker: i have the Soulution 725 linestage installed in the system so i will have to record the 3rd video with the Soulution 725. So for this 3rd and final video, remember it is a different linestage plugged into a Nordost qb8 instead of the synergistic Research Powercell (i found that to be too hyper detailed with Soulution 725). |
You are smart for recording all 3 videos with different ancillaries, keeping both amps on the same ancillaries. The 725 should enable easier analysis of the amp differences. Just like Transparent was more revealing than stock + Straight Wire, making round 1 easier than round 2, the 725 should perform in like manner. I guess you can do round 3 with a song you already know has been accepted by YT. Thanks for enduring YT frustrations for us. |
Jay, yyzsantabarbara wrote that he is offering his ricevs' modded Voyager for your evaluation. He notes its clarity with a little warmth. My guess is that you and people here and on your YT channel will love his amp for its winning combination of power, clarity and a little warmth. Apparently your undisclosed amp seems to have these attributes, and I believe his Voyager GaN will be the most worthy challenger to your undisclosed amp. My stock Rouge has made a great showing, but I tip my hat to yyz's efforts and the possibility that his modded Voyager gets the gold medal, and I get silver. |
I couldn’t agree with petland more strongly. I believe that 1 and 2 setups are the same in both videos with 1 being Rouge and 2 being mystery amp. I was listening using Empire Ears Legend X custom molded items through my iMac desktop. This being said, I listened to both full resolution tracks on my real system and the differences laid bare the difficulties that Jay is facing either from his recording setup, the limitations of YouTube, or—most likely—both. All 4 recordings via YouTube sound as if someone had placed a heavy blanket over the speakers for recording. Differences were far more dramatic and detrimental than a high loss, compression .mp3 vs cd. Additionally, the tonality is completely changed. It is a testament of how much care Jay is exercising that the differences between amps are still readily apparent. I believe that some prefer 1’s over 2’s simply because the amps limitations actually give a false sense of detail and the more natural and refined capabilities of both 2’s mask the layers of detail, 3 dimensionality and high quality that are readily apparent when listening to the full resolution tracks directly on a somewhat modest system compared to what Jay is using. I would love to hear the comparison in person. Anyone trying to make purchasing decision based on these YouTube’s is chasing after a fools errand. But the exercise was still meaningful… that the differences are still audible even under these challenging circumstances is a testament of just how important the role the amplifier plays and most importantly how worthy Jays years long quest remains. Keep up the great work, Jay. And keep having fun along the way! I also wish I could afford the fantastic equipment you are able to bring into your “lab”. |
Thank you Paul! It's been a tough shootout for sure. That said, the 2 polls have the second presentation winning on both videos. The question remains, is the class A amp the first or second presentation? Today i plan to shoot the final video using the Soulution 725. I think this will be an interesting video if you ask me because it will allow us to see if maybe with this preamp things are easier to pick apart or maybe they are just as hard. What i did want to say is that the speaker cables certainly are a bottle of neck of some sort. I can't say for sure HOW MUCH they are impacting our findings but with a system this revealing and the fact that we are talking about speaker cables which we all know are perhaps the most important cable in the system, the impact might be larger than we know. I really wish I could have used transparent opus speaker cables but the spades are huge and don't fit the binding posts on the back of the rouge amp. I think that even though they are calibrated for the mystery amp, they would have sounded better on the class d amp than the straight wire speaker cable brand we are using here. |
WC, you are the only one who can compare what you hear in the room to what we hear on the YT videos (because you can watch the videos on YT as well). I realize for the success of your channel you have an incentive to pump up YT, or at least to not knock YT, but could you give a candid assessment of to what degree the YT videos track what you actually hear in the room? I haven’t had a chance to listen carefully yet but I will. Two teenagers means life generally a blur right now ..... |
Jay, Now that I have established my credibility, why don't you try #16 or 18 zip cord on your speakers, bare wire on the terminals of the XLF and amps? Many people don't like zip because the bass is weak, HF are tizzy compared to any audiophile speaker cable I have tried. Put another way, the audiophile speaker cable is relatively dull and veiled compared to zip. Forget about technical arguments like how zip has low quality materials. Just listen, and hear the positive attributes of zip even if there are flaws. The positive attributes will differentiate the amps even more. Maybe I missed it, but did round 1 use Transparent Opus speaker cables for your mystery amp and Straight Wire speaker cables for the Rouge amp? If so, then the Rouge had a handicap for round 1. A big lesson of this shootout is that there is no perfect amp. Money has little to do with the truth of this statement. The Rouge has flaws, yes. But so does the mystery amp. I wish we could compare the mystery amp to the Soulution 701 monos, perhaps the best amp for clarity and other qualities. We already know that the 725 preamp has more clarity than the mystery preamp used in this A/B. Even the 701 has flaws. Some listeners here and on the YT channel stated that #1 (probably Rouge) has greater clarity and detail even with its flaws. If I am wrong, and #1 is the mystery amp, then this paragraph still applies--they are close, at least on YT. Whatever the distortions of YT, this A/B has been far more difficult than the DAC shootout and most of your past shootouts, all on YT. Whatever the identity of #1 and #2, it is objectively apparent that #1 is brighter and perhaps distorted compared to #2. One knowledgeable musician wrote me privately said #1 is better in most ways. I bet that for exciting recordings such as Metallica and the last minute of Private Investigations with those shocking outbursts, #1 brings more excitement, whereas for romantic soft music, #2 is preferable. Jay, please tell us what you think for different types of music. |
@petland I think what you’re misinterpreting is that proper class D amps have spooky jet black backgrounds. assuming the rest of the system is highly revealing, you can hear an ant fart deep into the sound stage. Well, not really, but compare the foot shuffle on Dire Straits Private Investigation, or, the clocks on Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon Time, or the mouth pop on Dianna Krall Peel Me a Grape. IME, these are much more obvious, as they should be Now that aside, where I raved on and on anut my EVS 1200 it doesn’t not hold a candle to the stock Voyager. Rics modded version should be even better hth |
tweak1, Regarding the foot shuffle on Private Investigation, etc,--on which amp are they more obvious, #1 or #2? Can you locate the timings which show this? After round 1 and 2, what are your objective findings about #1 and #2, and which do you prefer? I expect the ricevs' modded Rouge to be about equal to your EVS1200. Ric used an Italian company for his stock IceEdge before he modded it, and learned about Rouge. So I expect your stock Voyager to be better than my stock Rouge. Yyzsantabarbara finds very significant improvement to the stock Voyager with ricevs' mods. That's why I am presumptively giving the gold medal to Voyager, and I accept the silver medal. |
Viber - congrats on the Gold Medal (display it proudly) - https://www.target.com/p/gold-medal-all-purpose-flour-2lbs/-/A-13016243?ref=tgt_adv_XS000000&AFID=google_pla_df&fndsrc=tgtao&DFA=71700000012732781&CPNG=PLA_Grocery%2BShopping_Local%7CGrocery_Ecomm_Food_Bev&adgroup=SC_Grocery&LID=700000001170770pgs&LNM=PRODUCT_GROUP&network=g&device=c&location=9011840&targetid=pla-383930756778&ds_rl=1246978&ds_rl=1248099&gclid=CjwKCAjwkvWKBhB4EiwA-GHjFrTF5hBe6EClMKzBo-xgwYgOMRPd055p9nvkMp_nHWBS1lOkCv_BohoCa04QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds Yes it (the Voyager) is on the way to me. Jay probably isn't horribly far from me (I'd think no more than a few hours). The shoot-outs are work (and I hope everyone appreciates the time taken by Jay - I do). After I spend some time with it breaking in the mods, if schedules can be worked out (Jay's call), it is possible it will happen (have both the EVS 1200 and the Voyager - the EVS 1200 will likely find its way to a secondary system and I'll probably sell a Mivera). |
I owned Ric’s EVS 1200 and liked it better in my system than the Coda #8. Seems @yyzsantabarbara preferred or liked the Coda as much as the Voyager. Then Tweak1 keeps saying the Voyager kills the EVS1200. Ha! I love it. This proves once again that this is all subjective and based on one’s system, system synergy, sonic preferences and even room. Impossible to say one of these wonderful amps is best in all systems and situations. |
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I owned Ric’s EVS 1200 and liked it better in my system than the Coda #8. Seems @yyzsantabarbara preferred or liked the Coda as much as the Voyager. Then Tweak1 keeps saying the Voyager kills the EVS1200. Ha! I love it. This proves once again that this is all subjective and based on one’s system, system synergy, sonic preferences and even room. Impossible to say one of these wonderful amps is best in all systems and situations." So true. Yyzsantabarbara has the same speakers as I do. That's why I never understand either the heated debates (everyone can like their own flavor) or over obession about measurements (with no listening!) with different speakers, components, cables, rooms, etc. On another forum someone asked if anyone 'heard' (and the key word is heard) the Class D Audio mini GaN amp. I own one (I bought it for HT as the back of my system is a pain to get to. Assuming I like the Voyager all I have to do is shut off my music subs, remove the power cord, removed the balanced cables from the preamp to the Voyager and plug in the RCAs from the receiver (I bought a lighted make-up mirror to see back there - some would argue I can use it for other things). Anyway, wouldn't you know it after I post my review (as requested if anyone 'heard' it) someone points to an ASR 'objective' review that just is measurements vs. manufactureres specs (to me not a review as it tells me nothing about how it sounds vs. whatever else) and in the review it is noted " I had trouble getting the amplifier to go to full power for the right graph. It would shut down at just 0.7 volt input. Strangely, later on it accepted higher levels of input. I think the impulse nature of this measurement was causing it trouble." To me something that doesn't work leans towards pointing to a defect (either originally or in transportation to the person measuring) or an operator error (who knows as the case of the amp as I noted was magnetic and it doesn't have the best connectors in the world). I have no idea why someone who hasn't 'heard' something would opine (perhaps a career in fortune telling would be a wonderful fit). If the question was does the mini GaN amp really put out its rated power it would certainly not be appropriate for me to share my listening impressions as that wouldn't be answering the concern of the original poster. It takes all kinds. |
cascadesphil, This is a happy outcome for you and us. You can give us a second opinion about the relative merits of the EVS1200 (IceEdge) and the modded Voyager (GaN) in your system and with your ears and music. After that, it would be great to drive to Jay and compare the Voyager to Jay's reference amps, both the Constellation and the mystery amp. If it is too cumbersome for Jay to do another shootout video, at least a discussion between you and Jay would be most informative for us. Maybe Jay can do a YT video of that discussion, which will attract attention. |
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Ok guys Here’s the final demo which includes the Soulution 725 preamp. It’s been hard to do this but fun at the same time. My raw thoughts to come later this week. https://youtu.be/oYtp3f5lw5Q |
Post your thoughts and vote on the final demo video https://youtu.be/oYtp3f5lw5Q This 3rd demo nails the differences between both amps... I don’t know if it was the addition of the 725 preamp, the song i selected or me not using the Synergistic Research Powercell to plug the preamp into. Ok guys - Jay is going to relax and let you all give me your impressions on this last video. Let me hear it! |
Round 3, like round 1 may have a difference in speaker cables--Transparent for Class A amp, Straight Wire for Rouge. This may handicap the Rouge, Jay should clarify this in his comments on his final assessment. Still, I again prefer presentation #1 to #2 for #1's better clarity on the voice and sax. Voice at 0:30 for #1, at 5:50 for #2. Sax at 4:40 for #1, at 10:00 for #2. #1 shows more focus and upfront quality on voice, with clearer enunciation of syllables, as a test for HF resolution. Sibilants on syllables are an important component of the complete tonality of the voice, and it is unfortunate than many audiophiles are so allergic to sibilants that they end up with smoothed, duller sound. The sax is also more focused and upfront on #1. More HF content thins the sax a little on #1. On #2 there is an overall more laid back impression of both voice and sax. The voice and sax are both fatter on #2. These are still small differences, although I think the 725 helps to show the differences better. With the more resolved and transparent 725, the differences between #1 and #2 are greater. My vote is #1 on all 3 rounds. |
Yes, don't be shy. Kindly give your analysis and preferences here, chazzzy007, thezaks, grey9hound, ricevs, mrdecibel, rh67, speedbump6, 4425. derekw_hawaii, logydoghan, psnyder149, kren0006, cascadesphil, tweak1, yyzsantabarbara, viber7--continue to elaborate on your previous comments. Thanks to all for their impressions. Thanks to Jay for his work and upcoming analysis. We have all learned a lot. |
As I suspected, the modded amp "somehow" does not make the trip to WC...I offered the amp for the shootout a few days ago because I only received it last Thursday from the brilliant FedEx. However, I never heard back and decided to sell it last night to get money together to buy the following (not this amp but the new tube based version of it). Today’s review: Gramophone Dreams #53: RAAL-requisite HSA-1b headphone/loudspeaker amplifier | Stereophile.com I did hear a great "desert island" amp on Monday in Los Angeles. It is better than the modded Voyager, it was the CODA #16. Lucky for me I can upgrade from the CODA #8 to the CODA #16. This amp will likely give any amp reviewed on this thread a run for it’s money. Great amp but not cheap. My future, upgrade to the CODA #16 also made the Voyager redundant in a roundabout way for me. The Voyager was going to be my RAAL SR1a headphone amp but now I am getting the new RAAL-Requisite tube headphone amp (not reviewed above). So another reason to sell the Voyager. I loved the modded Voyager, the mods made the stock sound way better. Great job @ricevs BTW - I put in 72 hours straight on the modded Voyager before I tested it out. I was away on a trip and had the amp playing my FM tuner. The amp itself must have close to 400 hours on it now. |
Hope I didn't come across as being harsh or anti class D,or pro class A, certainly not my stance at all, I can't wait for it to finally really disrupt the apple cart and my sense is things are likely really close. I was on board early (way too early LOL), had one of Merrill's very first pair of Veritas monoblocks in the US way back when. They were a benchmark at the time and drove my large floor-standers way better than the Marantz MA-9s2 they replaced. I have owned most all of the OEM boards in many different boxes too many to list, some with big price tags for no particular reason. My favorites always seemed to have larger overbuilt linear power supplies (Rogue Hydra / Medusa, ARC DS225). I have not heard the newer purifi boards nor have I heard the new GAN designs. In the end none of them ever stuck, particularly as my listening room collapsed to an office and my listening became nearfield and lower volumes later at night (kids). neither of those are strengths of class D, particularly low volume listening. I certainly would love to be wrong about Jay's demo because if I am I will be ordering a Rogue to hear for myself and will embrace getting a listen. As for the task at hand trying to identify class D in a comparison then I'm staying big picture and am listening for a fundamental immaturity in the overall presentation. An inability to stay put, an over-eagerness to show me prowess when its not called for. Like a young talented singer with a spectacular voice that butchers the national anthem every weekend on national TV by not knowing how to keep things in place, knowing when to go and when to pull the mic back, ultimately becoming distracting. In essence not yet quite knowing fully how to sing. That has been my experience with class d up to this point. |
Here are my thoughts and my vote: The #1 amp in each of the 3 demos is the Rouge. It is more incisive and has the cleaner edge. You can hear notes start and stop more clearly. Because the sound stage is narrower, it comes across sounding deeper. From a technical standpoint, people may give this amp the edge over the class A amp and that's fair. For complex music with numerous instrument lines (like symphonic music), this presentation dissects the instruments better. If you prefer to listen to your music through a microscope, you might prefer this amp. The #2 amp is the class A amp. The sound stage is wider and consequently comes across as having less depth but the depth is there. It trades the incisiveness of the #1 amp for a more immersive sound where instrument lines blend together. The #1 amp presents the trees while this amp presents the forest. The presentation of the #2 amp is more relaxed and more mid-hall whereas the #1 amp is edgier and more in your face. For some, the #2 amp will be the more musical and less fatiguing presentation. It is also the more forgiving presentation where bad recordings will be more listenable. Here's the thing. If the #2 amp is the Block Audio, switch this amp to Eco (class AB) mode and it sounds much more like the Rouge and there are numerous instances where I prefer these monoblocks in class AB mode. For my tastes, I prefer the #2 amp. To my ears, the differences aren't that subtle. The #1 amp is just too edgy and lacks finesse and nuance. |
viber7, Great analysis. We objectively hear the same things, so your assessments are informative for me. That means on a future product assessment, I can rely on your ears to then consider that product for myself. If you prefer #2 for your musical tastes, that's fine with me. I just have trouble with someone who says that #2 is more incisive and dissects the music better. If he says he likes #1 better because it is more laid back and so forth, I'm glad he likes whatever he does and can save lots of money by going for #1, but for purposes of informed discussion this listener's analysis is not useful for me. |
Yeah from Youtube I really don't have the ear for the differences in soundstage and details. I could hear that presentation 1 has more power and brighter. That may not translate to longer listening session though. Presentation 2 gives a more laid-back feeling yet still presents all the details. Presentation 2 has more of that high-end feeling. If we put some more complicated cinematic music here like the Star Wars fanfare we can prob hear more differences between the two. But anyways this is a lot of fun and I will still give the class D amp big applause for the power it can deliver at a price point. Again I think the speakers is where you put most of your money at. I think source makes a lot of differences as well. If someday Jay can do an A/B between his MSB and a Benchmark DAC or if he plays some DSD vs MP3 there will be more differences. Pre-amp can change the sound by a lot too like the shoot out between Momentum HD and the Luxman. Amp can do that as well. But pre-amp and amp have more nuances because different brands have a different sound. Which one do you like is a matter of taste. I have listened to Gryphon Essence, Antileon and Mephisto. I like Essence the most. I understand it doesn't have the power of its big brothers but still I just prefer the sound that comes out of it. I also prefer the Luxman pre-amp more than the Momentum HD. That said, we can say the Rouge Audio is a great amp for its price. But it's no giant killer because it is more do you prefer that bright sound or the laid-back sound. |
