Viber, I have not tested them enough yet to fully answer your question, when I do I’ll get back…I can say one of them is enough to drive the speakers to louder levels than I care to listen to. I played reference recordings version of Fanfare for the Common Man. The opening drum thwack is enough at moderately loud levels to hear constraints in an amp/speaker interface - I’ve used it as a test many times over the years. One amp didn’t flinch with it. I wanted to see if could get the ‘clip’ lights to come on, but they didn’t. But I’m not a loud listener anyway, I could probably still have turned it up a lot.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
Jay, Jimmy's demo piece, Aaron Copland's Fanfare for the Common Man, is a 3 min extravaganza. It starts with the drum thwack--best test of deep and tight bass that your XLF should display with the right electronics. Later there are high intensity trumpets and other brass for midrange/HF dynamics. The ending is a wallop of everything. Frankly, I'm surprised that the single AHB2 handles all this, although Jimmy says he doesn't listen too loud. I can't do justice to this piece on my delicate electrostatics, LOL. |
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Today, I will unveil my new reference cables. 10 am EASTERN TIME Hit the notifications and subscribe https://youtu.be/aqT_N8BR5CA |
Viber - follow up on the Benchmark AHB2 stereo vs monoblocks - 2 is clearly better than one in my system. It breathes easier, is smoother, more transparent, and better separation and soundstage. I don’t think tonality changed much. The difference was not subtle, one stereo amp sounded congested compared to two monos. I listen at low to moderate levels, clearly not using anywhere near 100 watts, so why I hear what I hear, I don’t know. I adjusted for volume and used the same cables. WRT your mention of my speakers handling the Copland, keep in mind as far as I understand the Harbeths don’t drop below 6 ohms, although they are relatively inefficient at 86db. |
Didn’t you have Transparent also with Alexx or Alexia 2? Lower series maybe? For all the Wilson Audio haters, WC's purchase of over $50k msrp Transparent cabling tuned specifically for his XLF is probably not what you wanted to hear. As if WC's uncontrolled glee with his Alexandria and VAC and Audio Research alone weren't enough to suspect these speakers might be sticking around for a long time. Although I suppose all it takes is someone to make him a good offer and they'd be gone, haha |
I saw that video on the last tier amps and I got to say that the KRELL comments were not clear to me. I was not sure if you referred to the latest amps built after the KRELL K-300i integrated amp. My understanding is that these latest amps sound like my K-300i and should be even better with more power. The K-300i is a great integrated amp. Very smooth, good details, and very powerful. I use it on a headphone that can be fatiguing (using the amp speaker terminals) . The KRELL is a perfect match for these hard to drive and bright-ish headphones. My other 3 amps were not as good as the KRELL on the headphones. CODA #8, Benchmark AHB2 mono, LSA Voyager 350 GAN. The KRELL is also great on my hard to drive Thiel CS3.7’s but I need separates for placement with that speaker. It took me a while to realize how brilliant the KRELL is. Mainly because I had to much gear and was trying to figure out how best to use it. It will be interesting to hear this KRELL interview. BTW - @ricevs is shipping the modified LSA Voyager 350 GAN today. I will get it on Saturday. |
I still think that footers have no place with ultra high end. Something about it robs me of the musicality that some electronics naturally have. More detail is there but the soul vanishes and the connection with the music leaves the components as well. I will articulate things further in the future. For now, the only thing i want to give you all as advice is to be careful with tweaks... Added resolution doesn’t translate into longer listening sessions. There is such thing as too much salt or sugar when cooking in the kitchen and this is no exception with audio. |
There are tons of different footers.....including the ones on the equipment as standard. You have only scratched the surface of what footers can do by trying Still Points and Critical Mass. Try springs, try Mad Scientist, try Marigo, try a million things....but to think all footers sound like what you have listened to so far is foolish. Remember.....the footers on the equipment are footers.....they choose them for a reason.....and maybe the reason is not great.....and maybe it is to some extent. Manufacturers usually don't use audiophile fuses.....but we know they can improve the sound. Of course, there may be some equipment that will always sound best with its stock feet.......but then there is the stand to consider. Here is what I use: A large inner tube with so little air in it that it bounces at less than 5 hz......on top of that I use an Ikea bamboo cutting board......on top of that I use a maple board that is 1.5 inches thick......the maple and the bamboo cancel each others resonances (mostly). On top of that I use the Mad Scientist $300 a set....footers (two of them with the ball up and the other with the ball down). The system works great. I am sure there are better ways to do things.....but this is pretty dang good and not very expensive. No $5000 racks here! |
Transparent Opus cables Wilson audio Alexandria XLF VAC monoblocks MSB Reference Can we say synergy?? https://youtu.be/Xpibiu4MlDk Yes you can hear this spectacle even by putting your phone on speaker. $76k MSRP worth of Transparent cables. Anyone who doesn't believe in cables now has clearly not been following this thread. More coming your way! |
I agree with ricevs on isolation products. If my memory serves me correctly Jay has tried lower level Stillpoints which I don't believe he ever commented on, Critical Mass amp stands and footers which didn't seem to work with any of his gear and Artesania amp stands which he absolutely loved. I think to 'broad brush' all footers as having "no place with ultra high end" after only trying a few products is counterproductive to Jay's Audio Lab and the audiophiles who follow him. I have tried many isolation products and prefer ceramic ball bearing type devices over damping materials used in products like Critical Mass. Of course that is my own personal opinion in my system....YMMV My system isn't as 'ultra high end' as Jay's but I have heard many 'ultra high end' systems that used isolation footers, racks, amp stands and speaker feet that absolutely blew me away. I think more testing with different styles of footers would be appropriate here. |
So when i use footers, so far, i perceive more detail BUT this is not an improvement for me. Brands like gryphon, boulder, Soulution, etc etc DONT NEED help with more detail. The Mid-Tier and low tier groups will benefit from the added detail but once you are in the top tier i feel the footers take away the soul and inject a ton of detail. Boulder 2150 was terrible with footers. Lots of detail but i didn’t sit there for hours listening when those footers were installed. Same thing happened with the stillpoints under my Wilson’s.... Massive detail, less bass and zero emotion. If someone is a detail-freak then yes i see footers being favored but if you want that sound that just touches you emotionally, trust me you won’t accomplish this with footers and ultra high end brands. If you are making your favorite alcoholic drink and you know exactly how to make it in order to create the perfect kick & flavor, will it be better if you add a couple of extra shots of alcohol or will it throw off the perfect balance you know it has with just the one shot you’ve added in the past? To me, it will make it taste too much like liquor BUT it will get you f@ucked up faster (IF that is what you are trying to achieve). To me, it’s all about balance and balance doesn’t mean that sound will excel in every single category. Viber loves extreme clarity and detail but he has anemic bass. To me, that is NOT good sound because it’s not balanced. A balanced presentation is what takes thousands of hours to achieve and then you will realize that too much of anything isn’t really a great thing. I plan to be at capital audio fest in November if all goes well. I will do my best to find the most balanced sound there and report back. |
dguitarnut, Laughing and poking at people is a reflection of how you feel about yourself. When you love yourself completely then you love everyone completely. There are thousands of audiophiles who have played with air bladders, innertubes, springs, damped springs etc. to vertically isolated their components and get better sound. There are several manufacturers using pnuematic tubes, air springs, damped springs (Townsend Audio), etc. Here is a review of a "beyond air" isolating platform used under a turntable: http://www.10audio.com/minus-k_ct-2.htm At $4500 it is out of my price range......way out. Now these are in my price range: https://www.amazon.com/Preffair-Protector-Isolation-Dampening-Vibration/dp/B093F3RZJ2/ref=rvi_4/140-... Trouble is....the springs in the above type of cheap device are fairly stiff. You want a seriously low frequency isolation (less than 5 hz). You can remove some of the springs to lower the resonance.....depending on the weight being supported. Here is a company that makes wavesprings. You can choose 4 of these for the exact weight being supported......works incredibly well.....as good as an inner tube with just the right amount of air in it: And because there are four of them it is more stable and they are so small you do not even see them. Cheap too! https://www.smalley.com/wave-springs |
I can't argue with what you are hearing in your system and understand what you are saying but I believe really good isolation products don't so much add detail but reduce vibration which we hear as distortion. That's what the Artesania amp stands did for your ultra high end amps. I still think more experimenting is in order here. Maybe the same thing that viber is doing by sending you his amp to compare to your amps would be a good idea with isolation products....or we could just send liquor. |
Jay, So far..........yes, that is appropriate. So far, you have only used a couple of footers out of hundreds of possibilities. So, you know very little about footers and isolation and stands. It is.....as you know, a tuning game. So far, your experiments do not do what you want.....more detail and more or the same musicality. Try again grasshopper. Audio is infinite. I have listened to at least 10 different footers over time and they all sounded different.....and I just scratched the surface. I personally have never liked most hard ball only type things (still points). Still points sound like what you describe. Never tried Critical mass or other expensive jobbies. |
A couple of years ago there was a long running thread on DACs. The guy that started it has a very high end system. He described how a few buddies came over one weekend and they played with maybe 4 different types of footers. In the end, a different footer sounded best on almost all his gear. Again, this is a tuning game. FINE tuning is what brings tears to my eyes. I can afford to do that. Maybe that is what you need.....several audio buddies......then it is not just you lifting 100lb thangs around. You would have more fun....try more things...get more perspectives......and, you know.....get a little tweaky. It could be a men cave......rather then a man cave. Mo is betta.....more love, more fun, more knowledge, more growth. |
Issue is for fine tuning to be done appropriately, one needs to have a system in place and not do what i do. Imagine if i were to buy 10 sets of footers to try under my amps here and next thing you know i sold my amps and now i have another set of amps? I wouldn't ever finish trying tweaks... What i can say with certainty is that Artesania Master Kio stands are incredible and look very pleasing to the eyes. |
Yup, I am on the fringe with my extreme clarity desire, with sacrifice of bass. My second favorite speaker is the GTA planar/ribbon, which is much better balanced than my electrostatic, although for me its clarity is not at the level of mine. The footer differences are nowhere as great as the difference in the speakers, although I have an open mind that footers are significant. But proper vibration control is most important to eliminate distortion which overlays the pure sound from the electronics or speakers. Some people "like" this distortion, which is heard as "musicality" and warmth. But authentic musicality is the perception of the complexities of music in its fullest detail. I am not referring to the false "detail" of artificial sound effects, but the natural detail of the music. This is shown by tight bass, for example, which comes across as less full or dynamic. It takes time to get used to this effect, which at first some people don't like. But once you appreciate more of the real, natural music, you realize that it is the desirable effect. It's like your mother who said to you as a child, "eat your vegetables." Candy tastes better, but she knew you would appreciate your better health later on by eating healthier. |
ok, Viber's amplifier has arrived, but i have a few things i need to clarify:
what I would like to know is WHICH preamp should we use:
What amplifier should i use for this shootout:
I will wait for your replies before i begin to accommodate things in my room this week. If i were to say what we should use, i would say the full "undisclosed" setup since they are meant to work together and use this class d amp with the preamp from this set up. |
Jay, Agree on your methodology. Just please use either the undisclosed monos or the Constellation. I want to see (blinded of course) how my amp compares in clarity/transparency/spatiality/tonal balance to your reference SS amps, either one of them. My Rouge amp has NO tubelike qualities, so it will be obvious if you A/B with the VAC, mostly nullifying the value of this A/B. Similarly, using the ARC preamp will inject some tubelike sound. So the best approach would be to use the 725 preamp, followed by the undisclosed preamp, or even DAC direct, your choice. That's what I originally requested when I sent you the amp. For me, I would go with 725 + Constellation, or DAC direct + Constellation, vs 725 + Rouge, or DAC direct + Rouge, respectively. If all that is too ruthless for you, go with undisclosed preamp + Connie vs undisclosed preamp + Rouge. If the undisclosed monos are more ruthless than the Connie, go with the Connie, but my hunch is that the 725 + undisclosed monos vs 725 + Rouge would be my ultimate preference. You generously paid for the shipping and your time, so you are entitled to do what you like. For the next week or so, just enjoy my amp yourself and with your friends, and then decide which of your preamps, DAC direct and SS amps to use for the video A/B. The amp doesn't need warmup. I can even say that it has essentially the same character at 450 hours that it had in the beginning. Thanks. Happy listening, as jafant always says. |
Jay, Your own real world listening is more valid than my speculations. Put your best SS foot forward. If you find that your undisclosed preamp + amp has the best synergy and you proudly display that combo as your best SS, match me up in a friendly duel with that same preamp + my Rouge (no idea if there is synergy). I liked your recent video with your undisclosed combo. My Rouge is honored to be on the Critical Mass stand that is 3x its price, thank you. At home, I just had it on a 1" plywood board on the floor, LOL. Same Wireworld XLR's and speaker cables, of course. |
The issue is people are used to the full system performance which includes all my cables and preamps. I will be doing this shootout ONCE.I am not going to rotate gear because that becomes a job in itself. People are saying for me to try the ref6se then my 725 and finally another combination. I can’t go in that quest. I want ONE COMBINATION and let the cards fall where they may. I highly encourage those of you who read this thread to go ahead and chime in now. |
First of all this is not an even playing field. Having the undisclosed preamp / amp go against the undisclosed preamp / Rogue amp gives a huge advantage to the undisclosed pre / amp combo. I suggested the 725 preamp used for both the Rogue and the unknown amps....However, going DAC direct into all amps sounds like a fair test also. I'm good either way. Thanks to both parties for their time and effort. |
Yes, DAC direct is most logical, as logydoghan says. We don't have to worry about synergy with the undisclosed preamp + amp vs lack of synergy with undisclosed preamp + mine. The fewer the number of variables, the better. For A/B'ing at moderate SPL's, the preamp isn't necessary. DAC direct gives maximum purity from either amp. Both amps are powerful. |
