2. amps-preamps
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My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:

Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005

With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:

ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)

NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)

Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)

rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)

cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)

parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)

lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)

McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.

butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)

pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.

classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)

Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:



PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.

Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.

Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?

Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.

 It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.

Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.

Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.

Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.

Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.

Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.

My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.

That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!


jays_audio_lab
20,890 responses 
mrdecibel
3,115 posts
 
WC, I think it is great that your wife will be joining you. The shows I have worked, and the shows I attended, my ex wife never showed interest. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
That would be Lou ferrigno who charges to take pics with him lol. I’m an average joe who knows a thing or two about a couple of amplifiers. :) 
mrdecibel
3,115 posts
 
riaa, I missed you......LMAO. Signed photos of wc, more likely. Always, and enjoy ! MrD.
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook's avatar
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook
1,003 posts
 
What are you charging for Autographs?
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Ok guys,
im at the airport getting ready to board. I will be in Chicago later tonight and plan to be at the show first thing tomorrow morning. 
My wife will be joining me tomorrow and will be filming interesting rooms. I know some of you have been wanting to meet me so stay tuned here on my thread as I plan to pick a room or place where to meet each one of you. I’ve also been thinking of doing some Q&A in person and perhaps recording it and eventually posting it all. 
If you are attending the show and would like to meet me, please stay tuned here since this is where I’ll post what I have in mind.
closenplay
54 posts
 
Spoke with a gentleman at DrVinyl a couple weeks ago. Said that the retail on the Tintoretto was $65,000. We had an enjoyable discussion on speaker pricing/marketing theory. Asked him why with all the good press that Alsyvox had been receiving of late why they would not be in attendance at Axpona.Mentioned I would be in Chicago and would have loved to audition any of the Alsyvox panels. The reason isn't important, but we both agreed it is probably a mistake and missed opportunity. He said they would likely display at Axpona next year (for the many audio lovers like myself that make Axpona their only show). He did mention that pricing will likely be changing in a more consumer friendly direction (my words). Lets hope so. Btw, have enjoyed reading everyones opinions for some time. ( My first post).
viber6
2,454 posts
 
WC,
Before you go to Axpona, I should mention that the GT Audio speakers may not be set up with full toe-in.  When I moved them to full toe-in at my friend faxer's home, they were MUCH better in clarity, etc.  Although ribbons and planars have more dispersion than flat stats, they still benefit enormously from full toe-in if you want to hear the maximum clarity.  Many people like straight ahead without toe-in for looks and spacious sound, but unfortunately few people are aware of the benefits of full toe-in.  If the exhibitors refuse to do full toe-in, you can listen to 1 speaker facing it so you can get the full clarity, but obviously this is not as good as full toe-in of both speakers.  The GT speaker is relatively light and easy to move.  But a real advantage of the very narrow midrange and HF elements of the Alsyvox is that full toe-in is not critical.  Too bad Alsyvox won't be at Axpona, but the dealer in Maryland is not that far from you.  I like the endgame philosophy of alexbpm and gwalt, so consider Alsyvox before spending any more money on anything audio. 
viber6
2,454 posts
 
gwalt,
Don't get me wrong--I love the design of the Alsyvox but hate its price considering its relatively simple technology.  I would guess that the designer of the GT Audio planar/ribbon put as much R&D into it as the designer of Alsyvox.  When I heard the GT at faxer's home, by itself it was quite satisfactory for most music, but the subwoofer addition was useful for just a few very deep bass notes.  It wasn't a question of proper integration because the panels themselves go down to 40 Hz and their mid bass accuracy enables you to hear accurate overtones of the deep bass.  This is a much better strategy than having a typical dynamic woofer in a box that goes down to 20 Hz but is muddy up through the lower midrange, poisoning much of the music.

I have heard nearly all the ML models of the past 40 years, including the original Monolith and CLS.  They are merely good but not great, largely because of the large curved panels.  Same goes for Soundlab's large curved panels.  Even a large flat panel like the Dayton Wright was terrible.  Quads after the original great 1957 ESL are mediocre and very veiled.  My theories are not trolling, but help to predict the sound of any speaker, because you can't go out and hear everything.  You have to use good theoretical common sense to narrow the field.  My theory DOES predict superb sound of any Alsyvox in midrange/HF at least, so it is worth making a trip to the dealer to hear them.  I read some of the WBF, but can you just be a sport and quote the price of the Tintoretto to save me time?  Thanks.

An interesting electrostatic speaker of the past was the good sounding Koss 1A.  It was a large panel with a dynamic tweeter.  At first, I thought it was stupid to have a dynamic tweeter when electrostatics are superior.  But then I realized that good dynamic tweeters are better than large curved stat panels which roll off HF.  There is no question that Alsyvox has the best ribbon design for midrange/HF at least.  In particular, the narrow 15 mm midrange ribbon promises better focus and accuracy than the much wider ribbon of the GT.  Of course, listening is the ultimate criteria for judging.  I really do understand your passion based on your listening, and agree that my theories are not the ultimate arbiter, but only serve as a starting point.

Where do you live?  Thanks for your invitation and valuable comments.
gwalt
162 posts
 
@viber6:

It appears you just like to troll different theories and or price points of some of these speakers. So far I have seen your conceived notion on Alsyvox and find it very annoying. Have you went and seen or heard the speaker? If not how can you sit and rationalize its price or quality?
I think you will find a much better discussion and knowledge of the design on WBF. The price of the Tintoretto is quoted there or call the dealer.....better yet find out what he will sell them for!
As far as the GT Audio design (you seem to like at its price point) I cannot wait to hear it! I cannot imagine a dynamic sub. keeping pace with a ribbon planar and interacting with the room in a different manner. I am also curious of the build quality and or colorations it produces. 
Rather than point out the obvious, I really do want to hear it as none of the talk means anything but my own ears and eyes. I heard it will be at Axpona but I had no desire to go there so it will have to wait for another day.
I did hear the ML Monolith at RMAF and it was not even in the same league as the Alsyvox design. I believe it is priced at $85K.....does your friend own these and you cannot comment on its price being the same as the Botticelli? Dude you need to go hear Alsyvox and quit ripping what they have to offer. You have an invite here if you want to hear them.
As far as the post above from whitecamaross I agree with Alex post above. Yes the Alsyvox is expensive under American audiophile definition but doubt if under European definition. However, I did not buy the speaker to resell and if I did want to why in the heck it would not carry top dollar in Europe (where it has its following) is beyond me? They can be shipped in their sturdy flight cases made to last a lifetime so go figure.
In my years as an audiophile and now retired I wanted this kind of sound the Alsyvox produces....nothing more or nothing less. I thought I had a good system before I heard these last fall but they simply have revived my emotions in the music (I can’t wait to listen).......what more could I possibly ask for once you achieve that.

alexbpm's avatar
alexbpm
42 posts
 
@gwalt I could not agree more.  And I am so envious that you own a pair of Botticellis. You have excellent taste.  You must have auditioined hundreds of speakers like myself before you came to the Alsyvox.  Truly endgame speakers.  

Also, thank you for not going the usual route that many people do at at that price point, ie Magico and YG Acoustic.  I absolutely LOATHE those speakers.  I think they are outrageously overpriced, and offer little to no value.  Whenever I hear them, I ask myself if they are being sold to people who are partially deaf or perhaps they just haven’t heard any better.   I could throw a stone at an audio show and find another brand that sounds better at a quarter of the price.  I don’t care how expensive or exclusive your materials and build process are.  If your speakers sound that average...you must have an overinflated sense of self worth.  That’s like selling a Windows phone for $20k when you get get an iphone or android for $800.  I’m sorry, but I’ll take my Legacy Focus SE’s over any of Magico or YG Acoustics offerings for a fraction of the price.  All day long.  
alexbpm's avatar
alexbpm
42 posts
 
@whitecamaross I wasn’t really considering resale value when I made my suggestion of auditioning the Alsyvox.  I suggested it based soley on it’s merit as a loud speaker.  If one were looking for the ultimate endgame speaker, one to end all searching, the Alsyvox would be it imho.  You’re more into flipping your gear dude, I’m more into endgame products.  Besides, don’t we all want to end this terrible search for joy and meaning through audio equimpent?  It’s a terrilbe addiciton dear friends, at some point we must move on and search for happiness and meaning elsewhere :)

But on a serious note, if a savvy audio enthusist like myself was just waiting to buy a second hand Alsyvox speaker, here comes another savvy audiophile with excellent taste (WCSS) selling his at a slight discount, I would be all over it.  When it comes to a new breakthrough audio product that has caught the attention of several audio journalists, I think your desire for the product should dictate it’s persona value.  Not the non-existent market. You can dictate the market when you’re one of the first to sell it.

Also, just for fun...listen to this audio journalist who practically came on himself when reviewing the Botticelli’s.  Yeah, they’re that good.  
http://www.hiendnews.gr/alsyvox-speakers-first-flights-greece-vitus-audio-english/ 
klh007
621 posts
 
Dr. Vinyl has the Tintorettos setup in a small bedroom and drives them with a 30 Watt tube amp, Mike McGary's SA-1, analog front end Pear Audio TT, the system delivers sensational music with a wide & deep stage and realistic detail levels, and can play loud when we needed to rock out with no sense of strain, I love them. Percussion is very live/real sounding and I don't recall any dynamic speaker doing drums better.
viber6
2,454 posts
 
gwalt,
I saw a video of that exclusive US dealer of the Alsyvox, DrVinyl, in Laurel, Maryland, run by an attractive lady.  There are a few female audiophiles, but I never heard of a female run dealer.  Although I like the design, I still don't see why it should be many times more expensive than the GT Audio planar/ribbon, even accounting for import expenses.  What is the retail price of the Tintoretto, smallest model?  The larger models have the same midrange and HF drivers, but just more woofer panels.  A real ripoff just to get more bass.  There are plenty of cheaper and more compact ways to get more bass, such as the REL mentioned by bigdesign3.  And mrD's La Scala will kill any planar bass panel.
bigddesign3
237 posts
 
I'm looking foward to hearing what WCSS thinks of the GT Audio Works speakers. They look like they are something that will satisfy panel people, possibly even more than the Martin Logan 13 or 15s. And drop jaws of the dynamic speaker type. Will it beat the Neoliths? Probably going to be some fight with the right stereo subwoofer setup on the GT Audio Works.


I would personally put a pair of the REL S series with them. A pair of REL S5 or 212SE would be an alternative to their open baffle sub design. I'm hooked on the bass foundation of the RELs, shoot me.
gwalt
162 posts
 
There is a dealer who is supposed to source the Botticelli along with the Tintoretto in Laurel Md. I asked the question of the Alsyvox designer whether Dr. Vinyl would be getting the Botticelli anytime soon along with the Tintoretto he carries now and was told yes in the next few weeks. I am not sure of the rooms he has to show them in.
Keep in mind the Tintoretto (smaller panel) is supposedly ideal for rooms from 15 to 50 SQM. The Botticelli mates to rooms 25 to 100 SQM. For the difference in price of the two I chose the Botticelli because of my potential 66 SQM room along with my 30 SQM room of which both are at my disposal. I have not had a chance for listening yet in my bigger room but will in the near future. I have little doubt the big room will allow the speaker to shine even more with additional space and they are stunning in my small room now.
In the end, I think it would come down to the size of room and the difference in cost you choose. The designer Daniele is no newbie to this design (30 plus years) and is a perfectionist at heart. As far as I know it is breakthrough product with its extension, speed, coherency, stellar build quality (265 lbs. Botticelli/170 lbs Tintoretto) and efficiency all accomplished within a single panel. The two panel design will be shown at Munich this year and I am sure there will be reports of its sound as attendance there is by the most avid audiophiles in the world. I can only imagine what that will be like.
As with any speaker in this hobby in accordance with your value considerations, only you can decide what is right for yourself but I do encourage a listen.


mrdecibel
3,115 posts
 
I think when dealing with panels, omnis and other designs that spread sound throughout the room ( as opposed to direct radiating designs ), these all sound best in 1 particularly sized room. A larger panel = a larger room. Ohm sells speakers based on the size of the room, and other specifics to the purchaser. Ime, too many panels and omnis, used in rooms that are just too small, suffer the most, by introducing the room reflections to early to the listener. Just by a few photos, I truly believe the Neos would be worlds better in a larger room, further away from side walls, a greater distance between each other, and a greater listening distance between them and wc.   
viber6
2,454 posts
 
alexbpm and gwalt,
I do admire and appreciate the designs of the Alsyvox speakers.  The 5 mm super tweeter is probably near SOTA, and is very likely superior in response and accuracy to the large curved panel of the Neo, which rolls off the HF.  This is due to theoretical considerations as well as the listening experience of WC who also found the Be tweeters of the Persona 3F and the Magico to be more detailed and revealing than the Neo.  The 15 mm width of the midrange/tweeter is a great design whose narrowness would create a focused range from 850-6000 Hz.  Again this is superior to the large curved panel of the Neo which creates an artificially magnified image with time smear effects.  The question is whether the wonderful design of the midrange planar driver creates better accuracy than the flawed electrostatic design of the Neo.  I wonder the same thing about whether the superior Be midrange driver of the Persona 3F is more accurate than the inherently superior, but flawed electrostatic design of the Neo.

I do believe that the design of the smallest Alsyvox, the Tintoretto is better than the Botticelli, which is better than the next larger Caravaggio, which is better than the largest Michelangelo.  As I have written, larger panels create more time smear effects than smaller ones of the same material design.  Flat panels like the Alsyvox are superior to curved panels which roll off HF and a lesser extent the midrange, in proportion to the greater horizontal distance from on axis pointed straight to the ears.  The same principle applies regarding vertical rolloff from taller panels.  I discovered this when I A/B'ed the Stax F81 to its sibling, the F83 which was 2 stacked F81's.  Of course, the F83 was louder with more bass extension, but the HF were rolled off compared to the F81.  In a similar manner, I feel that the shorter Tintoretto will have more accuracy than the Botticelli and taller models from 850 Hz to ultra HF.  The smallest Tintoretto is still reasonably tall with high 93 dB efficiency, so should satisfy anyone in even fairly large rooms, who values quality but not blasting to unnaturally high volumes.   I wish some dealer would have both the Tintoretto and Botticelli in the same listening room so I could confirm my suppositions.  

Thanks for relating your experience with Alsyvox.
viber6
2,454 posts
 
WC,
Totally agree about not buying expensive products with no resale value.  GT Audio's speaker is largely unknown, but the modest low teens price given the quality makes it a low risk proposition (still not an investment).  On the other hand, if the market wakes up to its quality/cost ratio, the brand will get the recognition it deserves and have better resale value.  Just remember, almost no products even from well established brands are investments.  You take a sizable loss from even well known brands.  If a famous speaker sells retail for $100K and you only take a 20% loss, your absolute loss is $20,000.  The Rockport is still a risk--how are you doing with further listening?  But if you get the GT Audio for $14,000 and take a 100% loss, you did better by only taking a $14,000 loss.  Very few people are as skillful as you in buying wisely so you take minimal losses.  Your main risk for the attractive buy price is that you often don't get to hear the item properly before purchase.  I am not pushing the GT speaker, but just using it as a good example of my point.  If you like the GT on first hearing, you can go back a few times at the show.  If it doesn't pass the last hearing test, you can feel safe in rejecting it and not lose any money at all, just the relatively modest travel/hotel expenses.  
gwalt
162 posts
 
Alex:
I agree with you on the Botticelli speakers. So much so that I found a way to source them at a very decent price and now own them. It is simply the best dollars I have spent in the hobby in 40 years. These speakers have revived my dead interest in audio and my ex-speakers were very well regarded as is my system in general but the speakers are my dream speaker.
I was at RMAF and listened to a lot of rooms with the likes of Magico M3’s.....$85,000. Sonus Fabre @ $128K, YG Acoustics.......$160K......Martin Logan Neoliths @ $85k, Wilson’s etc and the list goes on. Depressing sound for the dollar.
From the looks of the resales on these "popular" brands here on AG for sale your used sale dollars are not to good here either....it is terrible. Sad to say but that is the real industry truth. Who is kidding who saying any of this is a good investment?
I am told that if you show up at Munich with a dream speaker (like the Botticelli) with a cheap price it will reflect that it is no good. This includes a lot of electronics and cables as well. You can thank a lot to that part of the world for setting the trend. However with that said, I doubt the US is any trend setter in audio sales. Take a look at manufacturers distribution list and you will get it.
I also know that Alsyvox will be in Munich with the new 4 panel design Caravaggio and will be attending RMAF in September showing in a 27 X 35 foot room but not sure what speaker.....either the Botticelli or the Caravaggio. Perhaps those complaining on the speakers prices (and I don't argue it is high) should go take a listen and decide how it stacks up. 
Funny that some of us drive exotic cars knowing they won’t be worth 50 cents on the dollar in 5 years and we think nothing of it?
As I see it, Audio is a "To each his own hobby" and no one should decide what turns one on or how you spend your money......that is your own choice and nothing expensive in the hobby holds value unless you buy it special or used. Unfortunately the truth hurts.
gwalt
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Alex:
although I am not doubting you because I’ve never of this speaker, trying to make a huge investment like this with a brand that has zero traction here in America is like buying an expensive great painting from an unknown artist. You’ll never be able to recuperate most of your investment. 
I’d love to buy all these strange brands but you might as well have an appointment with your local “bulk trash truck” from your city because that’s what you’ll need to do to part ways with anything strange to the American audiophile.  Is it sad? Yes it is sad but that’s just the reality. If you are planning to be in this game for the long haul and not have to drain your retirement money, you must buy wisely especially when it comes to speakers of the caliber we are talking about here. 
alexbpm's avatar
alexbpm
42 posts
 
@viber6 I don’t like Wisdom Audio speakers, I’ve heard them many times and I don’t care for them. They seem a bit lifeless, I much prefer Steinway Lygdrof’s impelemntation. I also have never heard a pair of maggies or planars that I liked until the Botticelli. Jonathan Valin of The Absolute Sound called them a breakthrogh in planar magnetic design when he mentioned the Botticelli in his 2018 RMAF roundup, I would have to agree with him. For me, they were definitly the best in show. And the best speaker I’ve heard at any expo, regardless of price. I much prefer them over the Neoliths, for roughly the same price. The difference was not subtle.
viber6
2,454 posts
 
MrD,
Also, perhaps the smaller Klipsch speakers, even though they are hybrids, are a better match for smaller rooms, but the LaScala and K-horn are better for large rooms, especially for listeners who demand more powerful and accurate bass.  That Stereophile reviewer who loved the small RP 600M said his only reservation was with larger symphonic and operatic works.
viber6
2,454 posts
 
alexbpm,
I have not heard the Alsyvox models, but I don't know why they are so expensive.  The best ribbons I have heard are from Wisdom Audio.  Even the middle Sage series is large and much cheaper than the Botticelli.  The GT Audio planar/ribbons are great, better than Maggies, and reasonably priced.
viber6
2,454 posts
 
MrD,
Certainly the LaScala is a purer implementation as a full range horn, unlike the hybrid Palladium series.  However, the P's may have a smaller more focused image than the LaScala which some like I may prefer.  Focus is due to clarity in the midrange and especially HF.  Bass gives fullness and power.  Horn bass is more accurate than conventional bass drivers, but since more melodic content is in the lower midrange up to HF, the smaller K models with the crucial horns in the mid/HF have a lot going for them.  So even the $549/pr bookshelf RP-600M reviewed in the April Stereophile is reported to have excellent clarity due to the horn midrange/HF.  As for smoothness, in hifi, it usually comes at the price of detail due to rounding off of "edges."  Some hifi reviewers talk about "burnished" sound, which means smoothing out the edges and rolled off HF.  But only in live music is there smoothness AND clarity, because the "edges" are present, without being artificially edgy.
skootb
69 posts
 
 ( I was there one of those nights ), The Allman Bros., Live at the Fillmore East


I am insanely jealous that you were there. 
mrdecibel
3,115 posts
 
Mr_bill, do you mean have I heard them ? Have not owned them, but a friend of mine, on my recommendation, replaced his B&W 802, series 3s, with a pair of Palladium P38s, I found used. Went with him to pick them up. I really loved the sound over his 802s, ( no comparison, imo ) but he grew tired of them after a few months and sold them. I had the opportunity to purchase them prior to him, and could have purchased his pair, but have always preferred my LaScala. He made a profit on the sale, and gave me 1/2. His system was a Sunfire Theater Grand Four and Sunfire Cinema Grand 405 wpc amp. I heard the 37s on several occasions in 3 different systems ( one was in my system in a previous home ). I never heard the P39s. As I said, they are, without a question, a Klipsch, and excellent, but " I prefer " the mids, and the bass loaded horns on the Lascala…. viber, as far as overdamping, I went, and go, a bit crazy ( extreme ), because the horn should not have a sound of it’s own. I dampen the cabinets as well, and further isolate the crossovers: just some of the things. I agree with you on turntables and tonearms, as you are " creating the marriage " for the stylus / record. I like the AGs horns, as when I hear them at the proper listening distance, I do not notice an issue, but up too close, I do, and yes, they are not a point source when too close. I have heard the Vittora, twice, at shows, and do not hear the softening you speak of, but feel they are very " smooth ", if you feel that is the same thing. I personally do not feel they are the same. I have heard about horns being made out of many different materials, such as granite, marble, corian, and yes, concrete. As long as the concrete surface on the inside of the horn was polished smooth, I would imagine it can work. Until next time. Enjoy ! MrD.
alexbpm's avatar
alexbpm
42 posts
 
@whitecamaross I know you’re currently smitten with the Neoliths, as was I.  We both like large speakers with larger than life soundstage.  I attend both Axpona and RMAF every year and I’ve heard hundreds of speakers, the Neoliths are always in my top 5. But I really think you should seek out the Alsyvox Botticelli.  Where as the Neoliths sounds like large speakers with a massive soundstage, the Botticelli sound like a front row seat at a concert with the full-scale instrument in front of you.  I mean that literally, I don’t mean it in the jargony way most audio reviewers do when they throw that analogy around.  The sound is massive, airy, astonighingly real, and just has that wow factor.  They’re full-range dipole ribbon planar magnetic, but they don’t sound anything like any planar I’ve ever heard.   Last I heard them was at RMAF 2018 paired with Omega Audio Concepts electronics.  I think they’re skipping Axpona but they might be back to RMAF this year.  They cost about the same as the Neoliths, but ironically it’s only their mid-range speaker. They have two larger, more expensive versions called the Carravagio and Michelangelo.  My bank account is terrified.  
mr_bill
349 posts
 
@mrdecibel 

which Klipsch Palladium Model do you have?
viber6
2,454 posts
 
MrD,
Very interesting mods to the horns.  It is desirable to damp the ringing and vibrations of the metal horns, so I like what you did.  I am skeptical of wood horns, since wood is a soft material and could soften the sound of the horn too much.  Rooms that are all wood have lots of reverberation and soft sound with rolled off HF.  My guess is the sound of wooden Volti horns is soft compared to Klipsch or Altec. What do you think of the material in the AG horns?  AG should also get all the drivers of the Trio model closer together to improve the imaging focus.  And what do you think about the concrete horns on the cover of that 1964 mag?  Don't go too far with the damping or you will get dullness, which I found with turntables and tonearms.
mrdecibel
3,115 posts
 
And yes, wc, visit the Klipsch room.
mrdecibel
3,115 posts
 
I hope to cover a few things here. " Give more of the spaciousness and soundstage of a live show " ? I can listen to one of my favorite bands, and one of my favorite live recorded concerts ( and I was there one of those nights ), The Allman Bros., Live at the Fillmore East, and I could not imagine it getting any better than my current system ( although I have yet to hear this better anywhere, I would love to )…. Palladium series. RF7 design on steroids. Not a Khorn nor a Lascala, and was not worth the asking price. The cabinetry was beautiful, and expensive. They were definitely a Klipsch, but not a Heritage. Could easily understand why some people took a liking to them, and still do.... Horns, the metal Altecs, JBLs, Klipsch, and many more, had " ringing " and vibrational issues, and the later polymer horns had / have " resonance " and vibrational issues. Was not hard to hear, specifically with most early solid state amplification. What to do....dampen the horn. Back in the day, I used mortite, and lots of it. I know others used clay. After the application of the mortite, I would wrap the horns in a potato sack material, as mortite was messy. Now, Dynamat, and other type materials, and several roofing repair tapes, such as Peel and Seal, or USeal, can be used. Popular in automobile sound systems, and the quieting of vehicles.... The " cupping " effect people reacted to, was simply, hearing a horn too close up. With tubes, not so much. With early solid state, they would run out of the room. A horn that has been completely ridden of these " nasties ", as I call them, are generally a joy to listen to, but of course, within a fully designed speaker. Using wood as the horn ( and they are very common ), could be excellent, if it does not have any of these nasties. The shape of the horn, the length and diameter of the throat, the outer flare, are all up to the designer. Then you have the driver / magnet / voice coil, and the combination of the two. I am nowhere a designer, and I am leaving out and simplifying the entire horn thing, but, horns have their place. In stadiums, in malls, in theaters, and yes, in automobiles. But, they also have found their place in the home, even before PWK. Enjoy MrD.
headphonedreams
529 posts
 
@whitecamaross if you like soundstage you should try to listen to Boenicke speakers. They might be at Axpona. I have only heard the small W5 but I read reviews of the larger models and then are said to combine a fantastic soundstage with bass.

viber6
2,454 posts
 
Even the $549/pr bookshelf Klipsch RP600 was favorably reviewed recently in Stereophile, having excellent clarity, although this model is not on the Klipsch website.  It seems like the midrange/HF horn(s) are the key to the greatness of the whole K line.

WC, definitely hear Klipsch at Axpona, even the small cheap models to see if they compete in clarity with your 3F.  The Klipschorn or La Scala is a serious contender for many things you want.  I am skeptical that the big expensive Volti is any better than mrD's La Scala, and it might be worse for the reasons I speculated about above.  I am waiting to see what mrD thinks.
bill_k
930 posts
 
I've heard many fans of the Klipsch Palladium speakers, too bad they were discontinued some time ago. Are any of their current Klipsch models still in production similar in performance level to the Palladiums? TIA
viber6
2,454 posts
 
dep14,
Interesting.  How do you compare the Klipsch Palladium vs Persona's for midrange/HF detail, tone quality.  Horns get the best out of drivers, but Be has its advantages for lower distortion, so which is the better mousetrap?  The best solution for the future will be horn loaded Be drivers.  

dep14
336 posts
 
Oh, on the subject of horns.

For those looking for accuracy, every detail and really very little to no horn coloration - I would encourage a demo of the Klipsch Palladium Series.  

Incredible center channel. I had the P37's as mains.  They were bass shy, but very tight.  The 37's had very, very little horn coloration.  They were immediate, fast, and very articulate.  

For me, cymbals came too far forward in the mix.  But, I've heard the big p39's on big tube amps (BAT) and they were pretty awesome.  

Great build quality also.  
mrdecibel
3,115 posts
 
Now that is a discussion..... Euphonic components.....Not here, not now…..And as far as listening levels go, I generally set the desired volume levels based on lower parts of the music ( a great example " low " vs "high " ) is Roger Waters " Amused to Death ". Used in demonstrations for this aspect, as well as sound staging and imaging, although I would be curious to know if any exhibitor will be using this at the upcoming AXPONA show, as it has been excessively used at many prior shows. Bye for now, off to Karaoke at the clubhouse.....Enjoy ! MrD.
viber6
2,454 posts
 
MrD,
I agree that for clarity, a speaker should direct its sound towards the listener, not diffuse it to other parts of the room.  Your horns do this, although there is some dispersion off axis.  But my flat electrostatic panel is highly directional, so that if I move my head to the side only a few inches, I am losing some HF.  Curved stat panels disperse the sound to other listeners off axis, but everyone hears the same rolled off HF, sacrificing detail.  My speakers are best heard by a single listener right on axis.  I offer a guest listener my best seat while I go elsewhere.  Also, I lower my head to my chin to get the best detail, although I don't know why this works.  Anyone will find the best position for love making, no matter what it takes, LOL.
viber6
2,454 posts
 
tjassoc,
Nice to hear from you.  Agree with your points.  I would add that even bad recordings are listenable if you don't listen too loud.  Philharmonicpete said that the lady at the concert said that the orchestra was too loud.  And that's live music.  The message is to always refrain from blasting, just as it is better to enjoy alcoholic drinks in the manner of the connoisseur, not for the purpose of getting drunk from too much.  Neutrality is important at every level of the audio chain, because there is so much detail missing from audio systems that you have to strive not to submerge anything with euphonic components.  Just keep the volume sensible.
mrdecibel
3,115 posts
 
Although I agree with wc, as he would like speakers to be as neutral as can be, it is the hardest to accomplish, simply because they rely on the room in which they will be in, and they rely on everything else  ( the system ) before them. And not to be repetitive, but are the recordings we listen to, neutral ? As everyone knows by now, I love horns, and there are many reasons. But one reason I feel I do, and maybe have not emphasized it enough, as it is a given, is that the horns direct the sound at my listening chair, better than other designs, which is, ime, easier on the speaker / room interaction. Granted, room size and listener distance is very critical ( in all situations ), but I do not want to hear any reflections, or absorptions of my room, and horns do this best. At least, not until the sounds hit my ear, first. I know I am speaking of acoustics and sound delivery here, but this is what we are dealing with. Bose 901, Ohms, MBL, and so many others ( yes, panels as well ), spread the sound around, but as nice as some of these systems sound, they obscure the " details " and the " clarity " that are in my recordings, because of the use of the room. This is why speakers such as these are not used in studios. And I want to, again, point out, I have owned horns since I was in my early teens, and when so much else has come and gone, this is still what my ears like, and are accustomed to. I make a good argument for horns, and I always will, but I know of many other characteristics that are not to everybody's liking. Again, a rant, if you will. The most important point in all of this : As long as we, as " individual listeners ", can find the sound of reproduced music, pleasing and with great enjoyment, in our listening rooms, than, this is all that matters, and debating is meaningless. Enjoy ! MrD.
viber6
2,454 posts
 
MrD,
Forget about the hybrid JTR speakers.  What's so good about the Vittora system, which costs $30K and doesn't look much different from the Klipsch La Scala or even the Belle K?  I don't like wood horns.  Wood is a soft material and absorbs HF, so that's why Volti may be trying to create a softer sound which you know I think sacrifices detail.  My father's Altec 511 horn is hard metallic, so the sound is more neutral.  Perhaps the ideal is concrete.  He showed me a 1964 cover of High Fidelity magazine I recall.  The headline was "a half ton of sound" which showed pictures of large concrete horn speakers being shown at an AES convention.
tjassoc
259 posts
 
This was mentioned earlier, as part of a previous post I made and addressed this issue. I certainly respect the desire for making older recordings sound "listenable" - it's a valid point that whitecamaross defined well and identified to clarify things.
I prefer components to be revealing / be of the highest fidelity (also stated in last post) because with the best recordings - the playback performance is unmatched (IMHO).
Unfortunately, this reduces the spectrum of recordings I / we can listen to - whitecamaross's past reference of listening to old rock (Led Zeppelin?) recordings are usually an act of torture. But then these performances usually involved amplified instruments - so a "natural acoustic" isn't always possible.
Thanks whitecamaross for sharing - I / we continue to look forward to your sharing your experiences :-)
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
The only component that I want to be neutral are speakers. I don’t like neutral amps or else I’d still have the boulder 2060. 
Pure neutrality can be terrible on certain components. Some of us like to listen to music from back in the day that wasn’t exactly recorded correctly. It’s important to have components that make bad recordings tolerable at times and that’s where your front end components can help. 

tjassoc
259 posts
 
Gentlemen - I agree and I've been absent for awhile - because notes of better / bigger / improved or image size or detail or bla bla bla lost my interest because no one mentioned a live performance as a reference. Every hear the sound of a strong / loud hit to cymbals up close? They hurt! (I don't know how drummers do it - hearing loss or earplugs?)
Earlier in this post, I clarified our home system investment was to create the illusion of a lifelike performance. Since our speakers and room aren't grand (nor is the rest of our system), I enjoy small acoustic venue performances - because our system can reproduce these convincingly. And, at this level of equipment - software (recordings) are critical. Significant modifications through a mixing board / computer typically compromises the quality of the recording (hence the expression "straight wire with gain").
Also - in my humble perspective, I prefer to obtain components which are neutral and not match a system to compensate for components shortcomings. This makes for better long term investments (because you can keep your other components - especially cables), and also makes upgrading much easier. And yes, system synergy is very much an issue - especially in high end systems.
All generalizations from this humble individual so please take it for what it's worth.
viber6
2,454 posts
 
philharmonicpete,
Totally agree.  For me, even the 4th row is too distant.  I go for the 1st row, slightly left of center so I am closest to the soloist where the sound is the most clear.  The only disadvantage of the 1st row is that the stage is about 4 ft high, so you have to crane your neck to look up at the musicians.  Maybe I should have become a conductor, who has the best position of all.  When I played violin solo in the Lalo Symphonie Espagnole, I had the thrill of immersion in all of it, with the brass blasting in my face, etc.  Anyone who says this is too much detail is unfortunately missing out.  One of my favorite pieces is the opening overture to Lohengrin.  There are 8 violin parts which I have never heard on any system.  I have the score and look forward to a live performance from the 1st row, where I can hear and see it all.  It is absolutely necessary to strive for the most detail in your system, so you can approach the detail of a live performance from a very close seat.   If you are in NY, let's get together, since we have so much in common.  russlaud (at) gmail (dot) com.  
mrdecibel
3,115 posts
 
viber, it is nice to agree with you, my friend.
viber6
2,454 posts
 
mrdecibel,
Totally correct.  The stage of a large symphony orchestra is about 100 ft wide.  No system, not even the Neo in a large room comes close to this. So no system as proper full scale imaging.  So you might as well concentrate on getting the best clarity from your music.  You said it well--"without detail and clarity, you cannot get a realistic portrayal of the playing of instruments or voices, tone structure, attack and decay, ambience." I go further and say that all the audio fantasy of IMAX imaging is useless without ultimate detail and clarity.  The bigness and space of IMAX is not more realistic unless the projector has greater resolution.  
mrdecibel
3,115 posts
 
Listen, there is live, unamplified music. That's it. Done. What we try to achieve with our systems is to create a facsimile, a copy, of the real thing. It cannot be done. But on a measurement scale of imitating the real thing, there are systems that come closer than others. And this is still up to debate as to which systems come closer, as we all might put greater emphasis on one or two characteristics over others. I thought we all agreed on this ? And I can tell you I have been to several concert halls and like both of you, enjoy being up close to the performers. My feelings are this : without detail and clarity, you cannot get a realistic portrayal of the " playing " of the instruments or rendering of the voices, let alone the tone structure, attack and decay, and the ambience around them. I believe once you can change a fuse in a piece of equipment and hear things change ( generally for the better ), you might say your system has plenty of clarity and detail. So although I do not put sound staging and imaging high on my list of preferred listening characteristics, it is pretty amazing when the entire front of the room " disappears ", and I can hear placement of the musicians, and I can get a feeling of the acoustic space they are performing in. If anyone has spent any time in a studio, and see what these engineering and mastering guys do, well, it is all a " simulation " of a real performance. And by the way, this detail and clarity starts at our sources, and if lost at the beginning, no amplifier, and no speaker, will be able to get it back. This is why most professional reviewers use " audiophile " recordings when talking about the equipment they are reviewing. What is my point in all of this ? I just felt like rambling. Enjoy ! MrD.
dep14
336 posts
 
I have heard the neoliths a few times (and in the right room they are awesome). My neighbor has the 11’s, I have almost bought the 15’s a few times.

I DO like a lot of stats can do, my issue is I listen to rock and sometimes loud. I need a big panel (like the 15’s or the neoliths) so they won’t compress. My room isn’t big enough (in my opinion).

I am not a fan of the Persona’s, but I’ve heard them several times. Objectively, they are very, very detailed. For the first 10-15 minutes I was enthralled with the detail, shocked at times. A bit dry (I’ve heard the whole line-up at various dealers). But that was at lower DB levels low 80’s or so. As I had them turned up they simply became too much for me. That demo in particular was using an ARC tube pre-amp (it was the ref 6 or 10). After 15 minutes or so at a higher DB - just too much detail for me, cymbals in particular bothered me. But, IF you LOVE detail and don’t listen loud I can see how someone would like them. Imaging was great, soundstage was average.  I don't like them, but can see how someone else might.  

The big stat’s - well, those Neo’s are a whole different animal. Driven by proper amps (ie - huge) they were an awesome experience.
philharmonicpete
25 posts
 
Viber, you are the only one who gets it.  No coincidence that we both know what an orchestra sounds like close up.  I love 4th row center.  From that seat there is almost no imaging as one hears from a stereo system.  Yes, one hears left-right, a wide spread from say the violins on the left to the cellos and low basses on the right.  There is very little front to back depth.  If you close your eyes you can sometimes tell that the brass and percussion are in the rear but not always.  When a solo oboe plays there is no pinpoint location at all.  The sound radiates large and there is no way to localize the instrument.  Listen to a Steinway grand playing a piano concerto.  You don't hear a small sounding piano located in front of the orchestra.as in a typical recording.  Again, it sounds huge with no localization.  The imaging effects heard on a system are really artifacts of the stereo recording process.  Yes, the dynamics are incredible.  I'll never forget at one concert when the orchestra was being driven very hard by the conductor the lady in the seat in front of me kept on whispering "it's too loud!  it's too loud!"  I tried to simulate these massive dynamics with both Klipsch and Avantgarde horns.  It was a total waste of time.  Even the horns fall hopelessly short in reproducing what the dynamic range of an orchestra should be like.  Another waste of time is to try to reproduce the low bass of an orchestra.  It is shocking to me when the low basses play.  Take a simple pizzicato plucking from the low basses.  A gigantic thud crosses the concert hall with such power and authority.  You have a simple pluck that yields a massive thud.  Just amazing!  No stereo can do this.  Even the bass horns are hopeless in trying to recreate this effect  So as Viber has hinted at all along the only thing you can do is to try to get clarity.  This also is incredible at a live concert.  You hear subtle shadings and nuances that is lost on almost every system.  Just look at the score that the musicians are reading during the concert.  Tons of detail, most lost on a typical system.  At least ESLs and full range ribbons attempt to get this clarity and detail.  Even the Quads which are very deficient in bass and dynamics try to do this.  Sorry for the long rant but I'm afraid most audiophiles don.t reference to an orchestra at close range.
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