My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Simple valid reasons: 1. Everytine i switch Amplifiers, i need to send the cables to transparent so they can calibrate them or tune them for the new Amplifier
2. Transparent does not accept cables from the end user. You must go through an authorized dealer
3. Jay buys transparent from the used market. No transparent dealer will send Jay’s cables unless I pay something to the dealer for doing the favor. This means jay has to be paying dealers every month to send cables in because of the amount of Amplifiers he goes through.
4. It takes about 2-3 weeks to get cables calibrated.
5. Gryphon advised against using any Speaker Cable that has any sort of network box in the middle.
6. Opus cables msrp is around $40k. If jay doesn’t like that cable better than his current cables, who buys the cable from jay ? Transparent isn’t as desired as nordost or others because of all the reasons above.
7. No dealer has any opus cables they can loan jay.
8. If the goal is to keep trying amps, i don’t see how transparent cables fit my needs?
9. Transparent is for the person that wants to just stay with one amp for a very long time. I can not see myself sticking to one amp only because I can’t switch cables
You can tell when WC is super satisfied with his component mix like he is now with Alexx, Gryphon, Boulder because that is when he gets heavy into cables and accessories.
The last time it happened was when he had Sasha DAW, Collosseum, m900u and c900u (remember all the cable shootouts and conditioner shootouts), and now it appears to be happening again.
Sorry Wilson haters, but the Alexx will likely be here for awhile....
Sorry but have heard many of those Synergistic pieces and while they can change the sound to me it wasn't natural sounding. Many like the change but I'd prefer ahnatural. Will see/hear what WC thinks.
@kren0006, In this case, Jay didn't purchase the SR kit, it was loaned by a fan so Jay didn't seek out the cables. I'm very excited to hear Jay make the cable and accessory comparisons because I've heard Ted make A/B comparisons at shows and his gear made very audible improvements when switched into the system. Good luck Jay, you have a lot of SR kit to experience, take your time and let us hear the differences on your YT channel.
That's the plan guys. We will do it together. This might be an "intermission" before we play with the boulder 2150s. We have cables to play with, boulder monos, boulder vs Gryphon shootout AND the secret component that might shock a lot of you here...HERE more than on my YouTube channel...
All kinds of copy cats to the original Tripoint Audio Troy introduced into the market place in 2008. Tripoint created this category and due to the success of the Troy worldwide, all these other companies followed. Anyone serious about creating music realism should listen to a Troy and compare it against the competition. I’ll let the music speak for itself. Tired of the same old hi-fi? Changing components over and over? Cannot hear the soul of the performers?
Recall that in the earlier example I listed he also had loaner cables from a manufacturer. Audiomica was it? I think there were others as well. Regardless, my statement said nothing about ownership vs lending
There will be much greater differences between the Boulder and Gryphon systems than any cables or accessories. It would make more sense to see which system you prefer, and then do the cable trials. I know the Boulder amp has not yet arrived, but the most productive thing to do now is experiment with the Alexx, so much more to do with it. The optimum setup of the speaker is still the most critical factor.
I understand what you’re saying, and I’m sure that many folks might typically evaluate that way. However, the opportunities and timing of those opportunities can sometimes dictate things a different way. There was much to do yet with the Focals, but other opportunities presented themselves.
I’m looking forward to the fun with all of the SR stuff. I’ve seen so many folks on forums call it snake oil, and I’m excited to have WC give his honest opinion of it.
Right now I’ve had the SR Interconnects and speaker cables settling in the system for 24 hours. I have my preliminary opinion but I think it is not valid yet. I need to spend more time listening. I was told I can keep the cables the entire month so I don’t need to rush. I also want to hear his the cables sound with the boulder and with Mephisto. I was told that Peter Mcgrath won’t be coming because he is staying quarantined in his house. That said, i was told he will be part of the set up on video so we shall see. That said, i want you all to understand that after I have the speakers set up, i won’t be playing with more speakers for quite sometime because I can’t remove the spikes of my Alexx on my own (452 lbs) in order to put the casters on and move them out of the way.
I have a ton of synergistic research here so it is a bit overwhelming. Here is my plan: 1. Insert speaker cables for 24 hours and Listen 2. Add xlr for 24 hours and listen 3. Add powercord for 24 hours and listen 4. Add grounding block and listen.
Remove all the above and reinstall all cables I removed and let them play for 24hrs before i listen. I should be able to compare at this point.
The above will be done with gryphon and boulder systems.
If you all think there is a better way of doing this evaluation of SR, please let me hear it. Im open to guidance/opinions. Just remember to please keep the testing as straight forward as possible and avoid getting all confused with all the tuning fuses etc. Let’s do this together and find out what synergistic research is all about?
@whitecamaross Jay,you can use the wilson audio jack ,lift the speakers and put the spikes.this effort might be well worth it and its a one person job only.the jack is around 500 dollars and has a 1000 lb weight handling spec.
There are all kinds of people who read this thread......for those that want the quality of sound that Jay has but only want to spend $15K on an amp/speaker/speaker wire combo.......and like making things.....then check this link out. I will have much more info by the end of the weekend including some pics of similarly done things. No, I have not done this....but I have over 40 years of doing similar things so I believe what I fantasize here will perform like I describe.
Lol. Interesting article. Is it April’s fool’s day? I appreciate people writing articles that directly tie with my current setup lol.... I can’t wait to put this link on my next video for all my subscribers to see.
Someone ACTUALLY wrote an article about my current rig... Guys, you all gotta read the article above PLEASE! I actually like the humor behind it. Thanks to whoever took the time to write this. That was cool :-)
Ps: check out the "recommend accessories" page on the link. The triangle made out of cardboard had me LMAO
Your finding my serious article on how to make a super sounding system for very little money...not serious.....is really what is funny. Every single thing I wrote can be done and will give the result I say. In fact, you got cable risers and amp stands because I bugged you about it over and over again. Now maybe you will finally get better fuses now that you have the Synergistic stuff in to try. You have no idea how much better the Meshisto and Pandora would sound if you put in serious fuses. There are lots of different paths up the mountain to great sound. What you do is one, what I would do is another and on into infinity. I do not make fun of what you do. I respect it. However, there is a tweakier, much cheaper way. There will be much more info, links to the drivers and parts, etc. and pictures of similar finished speakers added over this weekend. Thank you for your search and thread and thank you for inspiring me to inspire others with my knowledge so they can have great sound that is affordable and allows creative freedom and expression. Joy to the world!
From personal experience, Ric (tweakaudio) knows his stuff. The best part is he thinks outside the box to improve on compromised designs= virtually all components and speakers made.
Ric, My apologies to you and did not mean to belittle your passion for tweaking, but to say to folks here that they can get mephisto AND Alexx sound for 15k is a little bit out there don’t you think? That’s quite a bold statement... But who am I to negate your efforts? I am a nobody (yes I mean it) However, what if said say to others that I know how to get 90% of the sound i have here for 50% of the price?? Then I could easily embark on saying to folks: " I know how to get my sound for 1/3 of the price. Care to find out how? Please pay me so I can tell you how to" (clearly this is puting it bluntly) but i can't do that. I know that's not possible to do.
My question to you is this though: HOW do you know your approach can best what I have ? Have you actually heard an Alexx with the same front end as mine? If you haven’t then it’s kinda hard to tell others you know how to beat it .. As far as I know, i am THE ONLY person who has Mephisto , Boulder 2110 and Alexx together. I have looked all over the place trying to find if someone has this same combo and i don’t see anyone? Question: will your approach also best the boulder 2150 monos?? I like your passion for tweaking and maybe if you lived near me i would totally let you come into my room and do your magic with whatever you feel will improve my experience.
Yes I 200% agree you were the person who pretty much got me to buy cable lifters and stands, but fuse swaps in electronics such as Mephistos, boulder etc is really something I don’t want to do because the warranty is voided on products and yes manufacturers watch me.
Maybe you should try ricevs' "Life Coaching, psychological and spiritual counseling" (see his homepage for direction) first and see how that goes before embarking on building a 200k system for 15k.
The only way to really know whether you are the only person to assemble the same system you have (Gryphon, Boulder, Alexx), would be to know exactly how many of each (or more particularly, exacly how many of one of the three) have been sold, and what each of those final systems corresponding to that number looks like.
That’s probably not practical, unless you know somebody at an executive level in one of the three companies that would actually tell you the number that have been sold, and then you’d still have to track down what each of those systems looks like. Ie, near impossible. Now if only 5 or 10 Mephistos or Boulders have ever been sold (I’m sure way more than 10 Alexx’s have been sold because the speakers have been out for years), then that changes the probabilities and maybe it is likely your system could be unique.
But even if there have been at least 100 Mephistos, Boulders and Alexxs sold, each, the odds that someone has this combination is actually fairly likely, because anyone purchasing this quality level will look to pair with comparative quality level, and there aren’t all that many choices in 100k+ speakers, and $50k+ solid state amp and preamps.
What you can say with more certainty is that you are the only one on the Internet posting videos or commentary of their system that has this combination. That’s believable for sure. Or that you’re the only one you know who’s done it - I’m sure that’s true but as I say there is no realistic way for you to know who has -- probably only 1% of folks either post videos of their systems or write extensively about them online. Most just buy and listen.
Again, not meant to be confrontational, just (perhaps) a reality check.
Noted. I failed to articulate what i said which was that yes, i seem to be the only person who has gone public about my particular combination. If there are others who have it, well we can’t find them or see them so they don’t really count? Can you say UFOs exist if you haven't seen them? That's my point... When you do a calculation, your denominator is important but this particular number is based on things you can count...not those that you imagine exist?
Synergistic research....hmmm is it really all that??? I have a strong preliminary feeling after letting things settle for almost 3 days.... Will I break hearts? You will soon know...
I heard the DarTZeel 458 monos at the 2017 LA Audio Show along with the matching Dart preamp, Evolution Acoustics EXACT Series Maestoso loudspeakers with separate remote crossovers, Studer RTR playing Frampton's "Lines on my face" and I can tell you it was pretty amazing for sure; if I remember right, I think I shed a tear. The system was wired with Evolution Acoustics cable.
Those 458s make some insane power and they are super fast and make some sublime music.
This was one of my favorite systems at that show.
I wholeheartedly agree with ricevs and techno that low impedance speakers with huge phase swings is backwards as I’m coming to learn. If anything needs a Mephisto or Boulder I’ll pass. It’s all about the first watt, not the 500th.
Let’s keep in mind, the boulders and Mephistos of the world wouldn’t be built if there was no need for them. The reality is that there has to be product and options for everyone. Not everyone likes horns (i don’t think I do) and even the big focal grandes are hard to drive. They showcase them with monster Naim monos so what’s that tell you? Speakers are built for everyone’s preferences and so are amps. I agree that the Mephisto or boulder isn’t for everyone and to be honest, i don’t think they are built to be bought by the masses. Gryphon and Boulder know that there won’t be many people with these amps. Dartzeel 468, 458 and relentless monos aren’t any different. They are built for the insane speaker owners out there. If they didn’t sell then they wouldn’t be building them. I will say one thing though: i have noticed a TON of people are super critical of the ultra high end. It's been an eye opener for me.
Kodak, Gene of Audioholics dosnt believe cables of any make, make a difference. I’ve confronted him about his conclusions and he claims to have an engineering expertise that allows him to debunk the myth that cables matter. Whenever I bring up physics and logic, he goes silent on the subject. He does nice reviews on audio products ( though a good half of his videos are spent trying to debunk so called myths) he claims as so many others that they’re trying to save people from being duped. Many of us have tried to explain that we spend knowing what we are getting, and no one is being duped. He dosnt get the concept that we spend because we hear a difference, not in the hopes of hearing a difference. Then the next claim is we feel the need to buy into the story to justify our purchases. I have found most people are pretty vocal about any product they don’t feel meets their expectations and most would sell off and move on ( one of the reasons why Audiogon exists), and that they won’t back up a lie and boast about the product. That type seems to demeans those who buy into cables matter, while we do not demean those who hear no difference. I guess I could say that their hearing is substandard, buts that’s just not the case. For some they wouldn’t admit it even if they did hear a difference and will claim it’s due to something else, some truly do not hear. Good for them, because it will save them a lot of money. I used to be one of those, but did a blind test for myself just to prove to myself that there was no difference, and found out that I was wrong.
One thing I have found over the years is that without a doubt cables sound different from each other in most high end systems. They even measure differently. However spending extreme amounts of money on a cable doesn’t guarantee a better sound. It’s all synergy here. There are situations where cheap cables can sound way better depending on the system. I’ve also found that all the same cable through out the system doesn’t always get the best results tho it is a good starting point in order to figure out what the cable does. Those that say cables don’t make a difference just are listening or don’t have a very high end system. That being said cables are probably the most overpriced category in high end, have the highest mark up and loose value very quick. Unfortunately for now we still need them.
No perfection in audio, pick your poison. I’ve been lucky to hear many systems worldwide in the last 30 years and few have moved my soul. Most dynamic loudspeakers excel at some hifi attributes, but are to slow in the critical midrange area to deliver the immediacy and fluidity found in live music. There is one speaker that even though suffers from dynamic expression in the midrange, is still a very unique experience. The Tidal LA Absoluta with diamond tweeter and diamond midrange has a see through pristine quality to them. The other downfall is that they are ruthless. I do like horns for their immediacy, and midrange dynamic expression but most horns suffer from the ultimate high frequency finesse. I’ve learned through my long journey that noise reduction is the key to music realism. The removal of EMI/RFI can make or break any speaker, component. The problem lies that most cables and devices in the industry are flawed in one way or another, different flavors. The other key element that needs to be address is mechanical distortion, another can of worms.
Agreeing with Viber, would be great to have had another straight-up Gryphon/Boulder/Alexx video without the new cables by this point. Alexx 10 days in already and only one video since the intro video??? Is the sound not meeting your expectations?
It is the Holidays which impacts my bandwidth PLUS i am evaluating the Synergistic Research which takes days because cables need to settle in....... I am also tired of pumping out music videos all the time...these videos leave me with zero financial incentive (copyrights owners make the money, not me). I need to stop doing videos of music non-stop as i did over the past few weeks. If i do 3-4 videos a week then i need to split them. Remember, if all i do are music videos then those are satisfaction for you all, but they do nothing for me financially (youtube pretty much thanks me for doing work and them not paying me). If you look at other channels, have you all not noticed most of them just talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk MORE talk?? There is a reason...they get paid with these videos... and I need me some of that as well so i need to find the perfect balance when it comes to videos.
actually some people want my opinions more than the videos because they feel like videos are just too flawed so they rather get my opinion since i am the only person who sits here in the room. Too tough to tell which gets the most subscribers. That said, even if i had 1 zillion subscribers and all i did were music videos, i'd still make more money by going to a gas station to pick up all the pennies i find on the floor..
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
