My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
FWIW...because of my room problems I'm a sealed cabinet guy. My YG's interfere less with my room than any ported speaker I've owned. I can see myself (in a couple of years) with the M2's. I was excited when Jay bought (for the 2nd time) a pair of M3's. I believe the M3's are a speaker that needs very careful attention when pairing them with components and cables and of course isolation...same as the Mephisto did. Given time I think Jay could have the M3's performing close to the Stella's...surpassing them in some ways and falling just short in others.
Also, I always wondered how close the YouTube videos really sounded to Jay's actual system live so as a reference point I recorded (with my iphone Xs) several tracks on my system that I'm familiar with. I then played them back on my Mac computer. Aside from the 3D front to back soundstage and of course deep bass I was surprised at how close the videos of my system sounded like my system live.
All true, but Atkinson is a basshead. He starts all his reviews talking about bass, and usually gives discussion about HF as a brief footnote. He just retired as editor of the magazine, and as such is a political/business creature. On the reasonably natural acoustic guitar and voice recordings of Nils Lofgren, there is no doubt that the Focal Stella is laughably superior to Jay's other speakers in every important way. I don't care what the measurements indicate. My musically educated ear takes precedence. 60 years of musical experience as a violinist, 50 years as an audiophile.
So you are 70 plus years old, and playing music, perhaps in an orchestra, which will expose you to +100db of sound pressure on a regular basis for 60 years?? That is a lot of wear and tear on the ears, maybe you like your highs boost 😉 I am only in my 50’s, right behind you buddy (if I am lucky), will probably like the Focal more soon, LOL.
@sciencecop There is partial truth to what you said about me not putting them on mpods but i also didn't use spikes on wilson or focal so i guess you have to take that into account. All speakers could have benefited from spikes or mpods. Additionally, the stella were the speaker with no break-in time. Alexia 2 and m3 were one year old so they did have the proper break in period. If anything, the stella IS/ WAS with the biggest disadvantage out of the 3. As far as brightness, if you can refer back to the videos with the stellas you can easily hear that they were never bright for me. Actually, the m3 was a tad brighter at times, but not often. The Alexia 2 got a little bright or shouty when pushed hard.
@sciencecop I try to stay away from measurements because I feel they put a thought in our heads. It's like if i told you, becareful with your new employee. He worked for me before and he's lazy. What will you do? You will now keep an eye on him to see if it's that is true instead of just judging the person for who they are with you.
Good to verify, it can save you some disappointments! I am just reporting what I hear. To me, the Focal tweeter is a bit crude (I have listened to focal many times). It’s not just the level, it’s the quality. If you look at Focal tweeter measurements, you will see that the breakup is rather low (~25KHz), and that is probably what I am hearing, a slight but constant coarseness. It’s fatiguing. The M2 tweeter breakup point is much higher (~50KHz), it is much smoother but perhaps less exciting to some. I had the M3 for almost 3 years, trust me on that, without proper set up, you are not beginning to hear what this speaker can do.
Having lived with both here, the stella tweeter is WAAAAAAY smoother than the m3. Not once did I get bite at all from the Stella regardless of how loud i played music and i blasted it hard. The music just got bigger and bigger with the stella. One last thing, the stella tweeter IS NOT the same tweeter internally as the Scala or maestro. I hope you are not referring to the focal tweeter in the stella or grande Utopia.
Let me be clear, I’m not dissing the m3. It is one hell of a speaker by all means. I am just saying that I have heard both here, in my room with the same gear which I hope you have done with the stella and m3. If you haven’t actually done that with BOTH speakers then I think I am a little closer to understanding both speakers? You are right, i haven’t lived with the m3 long, but i have heard both speakers here so one could argue i have more "exposure" to both with the same electronics than someone who has only had the m3 and heard the stella at dealer? IF this was indeed a stella because I know that MOST dealers DO NOT display the stella EVO so i am probably going to go out on a limb and say you heard a maestro or Scala Evo and NOT a stella EVO and to be clear here, i owned the Scala Evo and stella evo and the tweeters are NOT the same internally nor do they sound the same. Not even close. The Stella and Grande utopia are miles ahead of their baby brothers (maestro and Scala) With that said, if what you are comparing from the focal line is the maestro or Scala then what you are saying could very well be the truth.
Sure, will go with that... Heard the Grand Utopia EM with the big Naim amp. Also, a good friend has the Scala. All using the same tweeter as your Stella, I believe.
sciencecop, I am "only" 67 years old. I mention this to illustrate that my exposure to music was from a very early age. I said my first words at the age of 3, so music was my first understood language, and English second. It is true that I have some age-related HF hearing loss. Too bad lots of young rock musicians have severe hearing loss. Not me, I was never a full time orchestra player. I have demonstrated to people that when I play loud chords on my violin, as forcefully as possible, I can generate 120 dB peaks at a distance of 1 foot, but I am careful when I practice not to do this much at all. Trumpet players tell me they practice with their mouthpieces instead of blasting away indoors.
In any case, I have found that what people think of as HF harshness is really upper midrange anomalies around 5K or so. The maximum sensitivity of the human ear is at 3-4K, which explains this. So if the Focal tweeter has anomalies at 25K, this is totally irrelevant to human perception of harshness. It is audibly smooth in the important 5K region, although measurements may not reveal this or correlate with what we hear. Many people just don't like brilliance of sound, seek tube electronics and warm sounding speakers, etc. They like to sit 50 or more feet away in the concert hall where HF are greatly attenuated. But those of us who want to hear everything and also know that most recordings are made with close mikes, value components that reveal as much as possible. The Stella is both a revealing and natural sounding speaker, very lifelike.
Some people are all about measurements and some others are more about the sound... i don't mind reading the measurements on amplifiers just to see if the amp actually puts out the specified power.
@viber6 That is not how it works. Once the breakup frqs are excited, the entire tweeter goes into a convulsion. That is why you want the breakup frq to be as high as possible. Like many metal domes, the Focal tweeter is coarse sounding due to too low of a breakup point, and as I said, even though some don’t hear it, it does not mean it does not exist.
All the Evo Focal series have the same Be tweeter. The difference is the tuning ( crossover) in the Stella because of the 2 midrange drivers. That is what WC was hearing.
Hi Guido. Just for you, I searched my post. I said "Guido and almarg (sadly deceased)...." I should have written, "Guido and almarg (the latter sadly deceased)" to indicate that only almarg was deceased. I thought I was clear at the time, but I wasn't clear enough. I apologize if this insufficient clarity led to confusion and hurt.
More generally, this is one example of why clarity is paramount in all realms of life, and in particular, for music expression and its reproduction.
Thank you my friends... Indeed I've not been culled or even attacked by that virus which incidentally bears my last name, nor by any other random pox... I am in fact quite fine and chipper.
Rather, Enjoying recorded music through the Rowland Daemon integrated... And practicing live music on the Wessex EP104 euphonium.
Posting "Guido and almarg (sadly deceased)" was perfectly clear to me. I had heard almarg had passed and even posted it myself on this thread. But to hear that Guido had also passed was quite disturbing. Being a doctor I sure hope you have more clarity when writing medical prescriptions....just sayin.
Guido, Funny that you mention "corona" as both your last name and the virus. The mild common cold is causes by lots of different corona viruses. But the most noble "corona" is YOU, and glad to hear you are well and happy.
Went back and listened to a bunch of the videos of Alexia2, Stella, Magico and 20.7, across the different songs (not necessarily straight-up comparisons across common songs, but rather an amalgam).
I like ron17's analysis - can't really argue with any of that.
But for me I'm not so focused on the things he was. I went into it not even knowing what I wanted to focus on. I just let the presentations guide me and tried to ID the biggest differences I heard - probably at the end of the day this points me to those things that are most important to me. Plus I'm kinda hungry right now and wondering what I'll have for dinner tonight, but I digress.
What really stood out across the presentations was the difference in dynamics and what I'll call muscularity or slam. That kick you in the chest slam that just grabs you by the throat and says, listen up mf'er, this is how the music is supposed to sound. Anything else, just take that weak sh++t and move along.
If a speaker doesn't have it, and I mean really have it, it cannot rise to the top for me. All of the other stuff (tonal balance, clarity, coherency, soundstage, imaging, midrange, treble, bass, balance, ....) is important too, even necessary, but dynamics and muscularity is a deal breaker for me if it is missing. For others, it won't be as important. I think though, for WC it is just as important to him as it is to me, and I think his speaker choices and length of ownership bear that out.
So, let's describe it in terms of a restaurant analogy. Wait wuh?
20.7: This is the little known restaurant you book with your wife, not having high expectations, but you get there and it is all a lot better than you expected it to be. The food was good, as you expected it to be, but the ambience and fun factor was much better than you expected. The service was top notch for what you are spending - good experience. You leave having had a great time and you will be back.
Magico: This is the highly regarded Mexican restaurant that you've been hearing so much about, and you have high expectations. But you get there with your wife and the menu that is handed to you has all Indian dishes. You're like, WTF?? But you order anyway and the Indian food isn't bad, not great. But the weird thing is the entertainment is some hula dancing team. None of any of it makes any sense. You leave going, what just happened here??
Stella: This is the black tie steakhouse, all formal, little stuffy. You and wife enjoy a fantastic meal, and the entertainment in the corner is a violin player, who is very good (technically really, really good), but, you know, it's a violin player. You look around, and everyone is sitting properly at attention, some watching, some looking at their phones. The music isn't very loud, and it seems overly polite. You leave thinking, well, that was really expensive, and the food was great, the entertainment level was I guess okay, and I think my wife liked it a lot, but ...... just not really my style.
Alexia 2: This is the top BBQ joint in St. Louis or Austin, with the best rated ribs and brisket in the country, and the entertainment for the night is a kickass blues band. You and your wife enjoy an amazing BBQ spread, you eat and drink way too much because it is just so good, and then the band starts and everyone in the place starts dancing, the drinks are flowing, the music is loud, and by the end of the night everyone is fist-bumping each other. Somehow your wife ends up on stage and is belting out an Allman Brothers Band classic, and as the night goes on the playlist gets heavier. You leave thinking that is the best damn time I've had in a very long time.
Give me Wilson all day, every day. It's the only one of the four that put a huge smile on my face.
@kren: i love the analogies thrown in there. Nothing wrong with how you feel about Wilson - IT IS A GREAT SPEAKER. Every speaker i have had over the last 4 weeks (i think) really boils down to PREFERENCE. Nobody can argue anyone as to why their speaker is superior to the other because some might have different boxes that need to be checked off first. In your case, you like the dynamics and muscle which i also like. I will be giving my personal view based on ownership and of course this is my opinion - nothing else.
Wow - now that was something special! I have to admit, I was never one for the analogies. They just didn't compare well (for me). But kren0006 just brought the house down! Still true that point for point the analogy doesn't directly mesh directly with performance - but man do you get the vibe and character of what's being communicated / conveyed! I re-read it twice because it was so good and I'm still impressed! Well done kren0006 - well done!
hehe, thanks tjassoc! I got some encouragement to return to the thread by a member who’d never previously reached out to me, so out of appreciation for that kind gesture I tried to bring it one time with a little bit extra....
i couldn’t have done the analogies you did, but I challenge you to doing car analogies next time you give your opinion on more of my future components? :) Speaking of future components... aghhhhh i want to open my mouth and tell you all, but for now you all should EXPECT 2 surprises that will be COMPLETE opposites.... It is 7:12AM ET right now, i am getting ready to leave my house to get my hands on my next component. For now, i will leave you all with a video (it will release today at noon E.T.) where i will be calling out Magico and Wilson on my issues with them. You don’t wanna miss it. It is a 38-minute-long video where i go over the Magnepan 20.7, Wilson Alexia 2, Magico M3 and Focal Stella EVO. While you all watch that video, i will be working on the next great thing!
sciencecop, I follow your reasoning about breakup of tweeters at very HF causing total loss of control down into the very audible range, but it is a matter of degree. On recordings, there is very little amplitude of 25 kHz information. Played at sensible SPL, there is very little 25 kHz info in most music. Maybe the tweeter could handle low amounts of 25 kHz energy, but would breakup with large amounts of input energy. In the case of those gentle recordings of "Man in the Moon" and others, there is negligible content and amplitude of 25 kHz, so this factor is not applicable. Most likely, a certain listener just may not like brilliant, crisp sound in the upper midrange and lower HF at even modest volumes.
Agreed viber. If anyone is experiencing breakup on the speakers mentioned, then the spls they must be playing at will soon induce enough hearing loss that they won’t be able to hear the breakup soon enough anyways, lol
Right, speedbump6. Rosin is used on violin bow hair to increase the stickiness and grip, which increases HF output. Nowadays I let the rosin get used up so the sound is less harsh. I can protect my ears better. When the bow is rehaired, there is no rosin--no sound! We have to apply just enough rosin to make some sound, but not too much. If I practice for long periods, I use a mute on the bridge of the violin. I have mutes of different materials, which exhibit different tone colors.
You excite the breakup regardless of SPL, it is part of the driver ’sound’ (Sure, graininess will be louder just like the rest of the sound as you pump the volume up).
Well...12 hour day and i am exhausted. I sure hope this move was worth it. 1,400 lbs total weight and my back is done for today. Will it disappoint? We shall see...
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