My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
ok cool. You both can close the door on your way out. I am promoting brands..
here are some FACTS about Greyhound and Techno since they have a narrative about me, and i have facts:
Greyhound: # of posts in October = 18 ( 12 of these posts are all on this thread) he has not posted ANYWHERE ELSE since October 3rd other than my thread. This means for the last 17 days, he has ONLY BEEN posting on my thread and NOWHERE else on Audiogon
Techno:
36 out of his last 37 posts have been HERE. He only has posted ONCE outside of my thread in the month of October.
THESE ARE FACTS. Not attacks or rumors or a narrative. There is a difference.
I tried several WW PCs in decades past and those I agree with you 100%, but the newer "conditioning" cords are on a different level (to my ears, anyway). But, as I said I will do some PC swapping over the next couple days to reevaluate
I think tecno and greyhound actually greatly admire you Jay, and just don’t know how to show that. I know I wouldn’t be hanging around posting if the statements they have made were what they really felt. Therefore simple logic and observation point to the conclusion i posted. I know when I was very young there was a girl I liked, and didn’t have a clue how to express that. So I pretty much just bothered her, I guess that was my way of getting her attention, lol. Fortunately I managed to get past that stage before I hit my teens. Now that we have a Boulder preamp, I know that synergy is a big deal, so therefore I wonder. Is there a Boulder amp joining the family, lol
Jay, OK, you never tried the Block line stage, as I recall. That would be worthwhile to try. Don't be impressed by the fancy features of 3 power cords, temperature sensing of Block monos, etc. The basic circuitry is the only thing that counts, which accounts for 99% of the sound. I would take my simple Mytek over any power amp you have discussed, with the possible exception of the Mephisto.
At the time, you thought the Block mono amps were the best you had used. Then you thought the Merrill 118 was the greatest amp for everything, which dethroned the Rowland 925. But then lately Mephisto you said was by far the greatest amp you had used. All these other amps were on the euphonic side, but you reached a milestone by declaring the Mephisto as the greatest for its neutrality and clarity, as well as overall quality. So by extrapolation, I surmise that Block is euphonic, but only in comparison to Mephisto, maybe Coliseum, Merrill 118.
The Boulder 2110 preamplifier is simply a much better made piece of gear than the Gryphon Pandora. It should sound better, as it uses feedback ( well thinked feedback like Luxman uses) to limit distortion. This will absolutely carve instruments and delineate them better in space than the zero feedback Pandora. It mainly will translate in clearer sound.
Also looking at pictures of internals, it’s easy to see Boulder has mastered it and Gryphon is still learning.
I am currently uploading a video of the Mephisto and Pandora. i have selected great tracks that will be used going forward as well. The only change that was made was removing the Nordost Odin 1 PC from the dac and adding an Audioquest Dragon Source Powercord. I also have the clock on a stock powercord. Nothing else has changed. I also do not plan to upload any videos of the Boulder until the first week of next Month. Why ? because i want you all to ride with me over the next 2 weeks with constant videos of the Pandora and Mephisto until we have added all the cables i have at my disposal and hopefully got it to sound as good as i can with my best cables. These next 2 weeks will also force all of us to hear these components together and familiarize ourselves with them BEFORE we get started with the Boulder. Once we have the sound of the Pandora and Mephisto embedded in our heads, it will be easier to pick up the changes with the Boulder and find out if my system got better as a whole or if it went backwards.
Great strategy. You are actually slowing down and being more thorough than in the past. Also, your choices at this level have narrowed considerably. The only major next step would be to see what advances will occur in class D, but this will take time.
In the meantime, speakers, speakers, speakers. They are still the weakest link.
great video WC. i like the component break down at the start. third song freaks me out. the resolution of the Mephisto seems evident at song start as the vocal is so projected, large and sort of flickering in and out almost of solidity.
So i have been learning quite a bit with the Mephisto. One of the things i believe we sometimes fail to acknowledge is that not every song will sound good with a system as highly resolved as mine. If the wish was for every song to kick @ss, i would just add a tube linestage and just about everything will sound amazing. That said, i am attempting to follow more of the "neutral" path at this very moment to see how different some songs sound. The song "give you up" by Dido is a perfect example. It got just a tad "bright" during certain passages and yet i am using what is considered a more "relaxed" powercord on the dac than before. This not only leads me to believe that the recording is simply a tad forward sounding in certain parts, but also keep in mind i am playing at around 82 db. Try playing that song in your system at 82db and let me know your impressions as well as what system you have. You might find the same effect of what i am hearing. I am not trying to "cure" recordings by any means. If i were to say what i would like to hear is perhaps a little less etched high frequencies WITH certain songs - not all. Overall, i am very happy with the progress made. On my next video, i will add the Odin 1 pc on the clock and everything else will remain the same. More resolution will come, but i am trying create a balancing act which is hard to do.
Jay, Another thing to do with certain recordings that have etched HF moments, is to turn down the volume for those recordings. If you use things like Odin 1 at lower volume, there will be no pain, but you will get more out of the music at 80 dB than with a rolled off cable at 85 dB. Then with other more natural recordings, you can get everything with Odin 1 at 85 dB and higher. But beware of high SPL on any music. There are also significant benefits of slightly lower SPL. Suppose at 85 dB there is a little blurring and mush. Back off to 82 dB and the blurring will go away and focus will improve.
Hi WC, I love the "give you up" track and have used it since it was released when I am doing a/b comps (among other tracks). My experience matches yours. Initially I was so concerned about the ’brightness’ that I always hear (e.g. at ~50 seconds in) in the low 80db range. I wince and have to dial it back a bit. Upper 70s does the trick.
For those of us who haven't tracked this discussion closely over the past couple of months, could someone please list the components which currently are being used as the "baseline" -- preamp, primary source component(s), amplifier(s), speakers, power conditioner (if any) and cabling (interconnect, speaker, and power)?
as far as preamps, I disagree with Techno on this. i've never heard a Pandora in a familiar system, but I preferred a Music First to the MSB Premier in my house and even the Ref dac. and most think MSB passive volume controls are the best in the biz. i've heard dCS Vivaldi both ways and preferred the hybrid VTL 7.5 my dealer uses. so I'm not surprised at all WCSS prefers having a preamp in the chain with Rossini.
as far as tube preamps making everything "sound good", I completely disagree. good tubes are not warm and sugar coated - they are more natural and holographic, produce correct timbre and tonal decay. so claiming SS is "neutral" is incorrect, bc its just different. and there are SS amps that produce holography, too. I'm so tired of tube = euphonic BS. that's 1980s analysis. all by a guy who owns Bryston, the sandiest of transistor amps out there. we can't have a real conversation in 2020 if we assume tube is euphonic and there is no good SS - the fact is both exist and have continued to converge in the past decade.
I agree with Techno that the sonic signature is venturing further and further into "hifi" sound. the last videos are all about attack and leading edge. you can hear the mouth of a singer, but not the vocal pipe. i will be curious if he reverts back.
I have zero plans to go back to dac-direct. I have done enough trials to finally understand that for my personal system, dac-direct leads to ear ringing, excellent clarity, lack of control with some of the monster amps i tend to own here, decent grip on the woofers from most of my wilson speakers (not an easy speaker to control) and limited dynamics. If i wanted clarity mixed with some bite in the high frequencies and if i listened at around 70 dbs then i would do dac direct. If i were looking for all the smallest nuances, minute details, and listened at low to slightly moderate levels at times and had a smallish room, i would stick to dac and wouldn’t buy a preamp. I just always end up with my ears "on fire" after listening to a dac into an amp at approximately 80 dbs. Maybe my ears are sensitive to that extreme amount of detail? who knows, it might be just my personal situation. That said, NO DAC that i have ever owned has ever come close to the explosiveness, attack, control, bass tightness that i have achieved with the best preamps that i have been through. I also think it has to do with the system in front of you. The higher up the ladder you go, the more important a linestage becomes. I can understand if some people want to save money by not buying a linestage and using that money elsewhere in their system (a better power cord, better speaker cables etc), but when you have pretty much everything in your system, you can’t continue to skip on a world class preamp. I am extremely positive that if I were to bring this boulder 2110 or Pandora linestage to those of you using dac direct into amps, you'd be in shock how much better the entire presentation would be. That said I understand that the 58k boulder isn't for everyone. It is quite a bit of money.
Your post does a great job of illustrating differences in preferences. For example, your description of the dac-direct probably aligns really well with viber6's preferences - clarity, lower volume listening, smallest nuances, minute details, etc. viber6 has said many times to get components with more clarity and just lower the volume.
And, folks like viber6 should also recognize that your preference is different from theirs, and that you like to crank it up another 10 db's and not have to worry about your ears burning up. For you, that is more preferred than lower volume and more clarity.
The difference in preference will then help to dictate which components and cabling cater to that preference. This is why you've mentioned that you are just trying to one-up what you are trying to accomplish - for your preferences and not anyone else's.
That is correct. One thing that i must say is that i have noticed that MOST PEOPLE that i have spoken to who like detail and extreme resolution, etc, etc tend to be in their 50s and 60s. I am 41, not sure if this is why i do not need "more" detail than the older generations? Maybe the older i get will eventually lead me to need more "bite" or extra detail in the presentations? I am actually wondering if age has "something, not all" to do with how much detail a person needs in their music. I remember being younger and loving ghost pepper, jalapenos, habanero, etc and i used to indulge in that. I went to town with everything being on the spicier end, but now i am barely able to handle Lousiana Hot Sauce or Frank's hot sauce because my stomach just falls apart. I get tremendous burning and acid reflux that makes me feel as if someone is stabbing in the thorax.
I remember being younger and loving ghost pepper, jalapenos, habanero, etc and i used to indulge in that. I went to town with everything being on the spicier end, but now i am barely able to handle Lousiana Hot Sauce or Frank's hot sauce because my stomach just falls apart. I get tremendous burning and acid reflux that makes me feel as if someone is stabbing in the thorax.
Ah that's the sure sign to move over to tube world where everything is revealed in a smooth, organic and embracing way (and you can enjoy more various recordings not just audiophile recordings for the over 50's)
Analogies are interesting but weak. I like a proper amount of HF "sizzle" which is the audio equivalent of hot peppers. But not too much of any of these things. Then there is the portion size, which is like the SPL (Satiety from Portion overLoad). You would enjoy the hot sauces with smaller portion sizes. You can get acid reflux from eating too much of even bland foods.
More important, your recordings are highly processed, which adds the sting with accurate components. Let's see what happens with Boulder.
I have had the same sonic preferences for 50 years. The reality of natural unamplified unprocessed music has been with me for that length of time.
Which tube electronics today have the detail and absence of euphonics of the best SS amps? Stereophile's Mike Fremer loved the VAC 452 iq for its excellent detail and RELATIVE absence of euphonics, but if you read carefully, he still found it somewhat forgiving compared to his reference CH Precision.
You have likely no knowledge of my Bryston 2.5B SST2 because you probably haven't heard it, although you may have heard other Bryston models which I agree are not SOTA. As a tube lover, you probably find any neutral SS to be gritty, etc. You are entitled to like the VTL Hybrid more than the DCS Vivaldi, but that is your euphonic taste.
I actually had a Bryston 2.5 SST2 for a year or so and even though it sounded nice it was no match for my next amp which was a Pass Labs Int-60. It’s first 30 watts is class A which is what utterly destroyed the Bryston to my ears. This was pairing up to Tekton Lore Reference speakers which when I tried to sell even at 25% of the price I couldn’t find buyers. My son ended up with a nice set of free speakers. This is why WC doesn’t want Tektons.....lol
Well to be honest, it is YOU GUYS, the future buyers of my gear , who don't let me buy everything I want to try because you all won't buy it later when i am done lol. In all fairness, yes I must take the used market into account when buying gear. Speaking of buying gear, my next move has just departed and is in route to me. Next week will be the last time you all see and hear a particular component. Big announcement, stay tuned for more of my madness because I can't do this without you all. Don't forget that. You all are one reason why I keep doing this. Thank you to those of you who have been supportive of my journey and this thread. I really appreciate everything and my home is your home. I mean it.
For those of you who have been swearing about the benchmark dac, you might want to read this review that just came out. It is of the arc REF6SE which was compared to the momentum hd preamp I owned and rated #1 on my list of preamplification, as well as this benchmark $2599 preamp. I’m hoping you all can read between the lines on that review. In a nutshell, the benchmark was simply "alright" and nothing to rave about. I am going to literally copy and paste here:
"As for the other preamps, the MBL N11 was by far the warmest of the lot, with excellent bass. The well-over-twice-as-expensive D’Agostino was the giant killer (as in giant who kills, not killer of giants), with more color, bigger images than with the Rossini solo, a soundstage larger in all directions and set farther back, and the strongest bass. It blew Erik away. At the other end of the price spectrum, the Benchmark LA4, which costs less than a sixth of what the ARC REF 6SE costs, proved the least colorful and engaging of the lot, with recessed highs and a rather flat presentation"
Do we have to keep going with this benchmark conversation after those words above where they clearly praised the momentum hd linestage (as I have as well on my YouTube channel) and nothing really was praised about the benchmark dac?
I hope this puts this entire noise of the benchmark linestage conversation to sleep when it comes to comparing it to the likes of the momentum hd, let alone the boulder 2110 or Gryphon Pandora. I did not have to do the talking here. Do not be upset with me either. I am only the messenger of the review that stereophile put out this month. I don’t know why some people don’t understand that there are levels to this. I will never talk bad about the benchmark linestage but to dare to say that it bests preamps in the category of the momentum hd, boulders, or even the REF6SE is just simply absurd. Levels....I don’t make them up...they are a reality and of course some people don’t get it because they have not really gone up to the likes of the preamps mentioned on the review. Lastly, most of the people praising the benchmark linestage don't even own it...that's what's even more shocking...I will leave it at that.
I emphatically agree with the need for a pre-amp and would say even for lower level listening the same thing happens - you feel like your head got cooked. Pre-amplifiers are a gift to the audiophile and are a must have. I too did once believe that less was more and purity was the goal, until I heard my DAC straight to amplifier and realised I liked what the pre-amp does (I still think less is more, but pre-amp is a must include, like speakers).
Since then I have had exactly one good pre-amp (Nagra PL-L), it astonishes what it does to music, the detail it extracts.
IMO all of it is artifice and pretend and the pre-amp helps to make that illusion beautiful. DAC straight is detail freak land for my tastes. I thought I wanted it. I got it. The i realised it was not a good place for me to be.
Jay, A reader has to interpret what any reviewer says, for a few reasons. Aside from the commercial bias, the review is only as good as his ears, experience and understanding of music. Who says a reviewer is any more qualified than any listener? In your case, you have good ears, because you accurately and objectively describe what you hear. However, at times I disagree with your interpretations of what you hear.
For example, although I have never heard the Dag S250 or the Momentum 400 mono amps, you described the S250 as more euphonic than the Momentum. As a more dedicated circuit, I would expect the Momentum to be more accurate, and would probably agree with your objective assessment if I heard both Dag's. In my experience, when a product is more accurate and detailed than another, it is cooler in tonality and has thinner images with more focus. I learned this over the years with many products I owned. So that reviewer said, "the Dag had more color, bigger images than with the Rossini solo, a soundstage larger in all directions and set farther back, and the strongest bass." Now, I'll interpret what he said. Bigger images (as opposed to smaller more focuses images), a soundstage set further back, and stronger bass, are all caused by rolloff of HF with more prominent bass, and result in less fine detail. He is entitled to like that, and it is better for him, but anyone who priorities detail and accuracy would say it is not better, but actually worse. Next, he said that the Benchmark LA4 "proved the least colorful and engaging of the lot, with recessed highs and a rather flat presentation." I haven't heard the LA4, but the AHB2 I heard at home for a month showed those characteristics except it had extended HF, not recessed HF. He may have a hearing problem. But it is true that accuracy is associated with less color and a relatively flat presentation. For those people who are familiar with live unamplified music, I have said that COLOR is in the live music itself, and should not have overlay of COLORATION from electronics. Also, the "relatively flat" presentation is characteristic of something with more HF detail and lack of artificial inflation and bloating of images and depth.
The most authoritative views on the Benchmark LA4 are from yyzsantabarbara, who owns it and also values accuracy and lack of coloration.
Lastly, money is the least important criterion of judging any audio electronics. In the detail/accuracy camp, there are the Boulder, Mephisto, Benchmark, my Bryston 2.5B SST2 and Mytek Brooklyn AMP+ products. In the euphonic/pleasant camp, are the ARC, Pass, Rowland, Luxman, etc. In each camp, prices vary greatly. The "levels" are merely money, but not necessarily quality. At each price level, the number of euphonic products greatly exceeds the number of accurate products. BTW, although you don't venture into turntables and cartridges, my experience in this area has also shown only weak correlation of price and sound quality.
Viber You make interesting points and it could be a great intelligent discussion for all of us to chime in on without disrespect. That said, the reviewer stated what he heard. I stated what I heard with my top preamps, and you state what you hear. We clearly hear and prefer different tonalities as audiophiles and that is fine. My issue is when people come with these ideas of affordable components besting the upper echelon. That is when I must say: hmm not so much. What needs to be said instead is that maybe the benchmark punches way above its price point and that it is an insanely good product given its price tag. See, that I could believe and couldn’t argue, but when this mentality of greatness gets taken out of context and I mean WAAAAAY out of context is when I have to snap my fingers and do reality checks here. I haven’t owned the benchmark preamp but I am willing to bet any component I own in my room that if you bring that benchmark linestage here and we do REAL A/B comparisons against the 111 lb boulder preamp, it wouldn’t go past the first 5 seconds before we have a winner. Why do you think that is? Because I have a highly resolved system. I am not bragging, it is a fact. So in my system, the differences are massive and easily heard. NOBODY here is trying to insult anyone with a benchmark linestage because nobody has said it is garbage. What most people are saying is to keep our feet on the ground and our head on our shoulders. I’ve come from the onkyos and rotels of the world. Don’t forget that. I wasn’t born with Wilson and Gryphon. I had to come from the bottom and worked my way up to the top. One perfect example of ME appreciating affordable audio would be the 20.7. Why are they still here? They are special. I can't deny it. Are they a wilson alexia 2? Hmm nope... But I don't expect them to be. I am clear on what they are and they are not. Viber, when it comes to my Alexia 2s, you actually did praise them and were vocal about how much they had impressed you a few weeks ago. Then recently you said that my speakers are my weak link.... Lastly, I am being as respectful as possible with my points above so let's keep a mature and valid discussion flowing.
On gear pricing and rating, if you’ve been paying attention WC has rated his three best ever amplifiers for the dollar. At under $10k it was Luxman L590axii. I later got WC to admit that nothing under $12k that he’s had including Pass or anything else beat that class A Luxman. At $15k it was Luxman 900u, and at whatever the Gryphon Colloseum goes for, that was the third one. No mention of the lower quality ones like Bryston or others he’s owned (just check post #1 for that list).
Edit: If memory serves, although it wasn't in that video, I am pretty sure that WC has stated in the $5k range some Plinius amp is the best available that he's had.
Yes, the sa103 remains the best amp under 5k (used price) in my opinion. That would be my amp if I were looking to build an affordable set up. Just buy a great powercord, good interconnects and that amp will drive anything and knowing that it can be used as mono is icing on the cake.
Jay, I've been following this thread for a while now, as well as your YT Channel with great interest. I was pleasantly surprised when you compared DAC direct VS DAC through a preamp. The preamp VS no preamp dilemna was resolved for me, once I heard the audio quality improvement on your video.
My front end equipment consists of the following: Arris TM722G Cable Modem/Ethernet/Asus RT-N66U/Ethernet/Sonore OpticalModule/Ethernet Fiber/Sonore OpticalRendu/USB/Benchmark DAC3HGC. The fiber network before the DAC3 HGC was critical in reducing background noise/veil. I listen mainly music either through my home network and Tidal via Roon.
Since I've owned every iteration of the Benchmark DAC's which I really liked, I decided to jump on the preamp bandwagon and purchased the Benhmark LA4 preamp. My listening preference is fidelity to the source with no coloration coming from the gear. If the recording sucks or is great, I want to hear it.
I've had the LA4 for a week now, and all I can confirm that inserting a preamp between my DAC and my monoblocks, greatly improved the sound quality of my system. Just for that, I thank you sir!
The soundstage has exploded and musicality has increased in quality, like if a veil was lifted. The music is tonally richer and organic, like 'more meat on the bones' effect, while keeping a noiseless/black background with the insertion of the LA4 preamp.
So the net effect on my system was an increase in 'thereness' if that word exists. I'm not saying that the LA4 is better than the MBL, D'Agostino or Audio Research preamps. Just saying that in my situation, with current gear I own, the LA4 has helped increasing the joy of listening to music.
Looks like that Plinius had msrp of $7800ish per Stereophile 2011 review.
Would be cool to get a true best at $5k msrp WC pick, but it’s probably been so long since you’ve had current models in that price tier that such a rating would be tough.
This will draw some laughs, but the Cambridge Audio Edge W at $4k is really good compared to anything else under $5k that I’ve heard. I own one in my secondary system. One of the Brit audio mags reviewed the Edge A integrated (which has same amp circuit) at $6k and directly compared it to the $11k Hegel H590 and said it was just as good at half the price.
See, I can appreciate the budget stuff too! Just keep it in perspective versus the big boys (not all, but generally).
@dasign I am very happy to hear that you learned something from my journey. I am happy you also agree with the importance of a linestage and what it accomplishes. I no longer have to second guess myself anymore with regards to the conversation of no preamp or preamp in the mix. That is a dead subject for me. That said, maybe in the next few years there will be new dacs that will change things for all of us.
Interesting Kren. I have no reason to not believe that this dac isn't as good as the 11k hegel. They aren't exactly leagues apart from a price stand point. Luxman class a Integrated for $9500 stumped on the accuphase e800 I had here which retails for $20k. As soon as luxman releases their new reference monos, I will throw my name on the waiting list. I love luxman. I can't echo that more than I have.
Just two points, one new, and one pretty old - and actually just repeating what I'd to say a long while back in this thread I.e. using DAC direct into amp.
So FINALY there seems some more agreement on the subject as it APPEARS. GOOD! a) To reiterated; even with a most finely resolving ladder resistor (R-2R, analogue) DAC output volume control i.e. no bit stripping, the use of a good quality preamp improves SQ.
This, even ages ago, was found to be the case during Sterophile's J. Atkinson testing Levison gear, which I use and which I could confirm also. No if or but.
b) Regards Viber6 comment about Wilson Alexia2 and 'the weakest link' ...
IMO, WC's top notch frontend equipment is in fact, practically relegating ANY speaker to the 'weakest link' - in this system setup.
At this extremely high frontend quality level this is practically unavoidable.
This is perhaps a more philosophically stated point of view, and in NO WAY diminishes the very top SQ achieved.
So much so, that as stated, this speaker is revealing minute changes, that a lesser quality speaker would hardly be able to do.
Never the less, it can still be the 'weakest link' (for now?). Only, e.g. some top of the line MBL 'Biegewandler' MIGHT change this, by pointing back at the frontend setup. Though, the question would arise, what sort of monster mono-blocks, other than the MBL items, would then bring everything back into a new 'balance'? M. 🇿🇦
Good points above. I also wanted to say the following: 1. Stereophile clearly loved the benchmark but compared it to higher end linestages such as the momentum hd and well they pretty much spoke how they felt about its performance when comparing it to other levels of linestages.
2. I spoke about how I feel about using dac direct versus no preamp by doing comparisons
My point? Both points have to do with REAL comparisons in the same environment. Both come from hands on experience. These points above validate the opinion quite a bit more than the person who only has "an idea" of what an ultra high end component must bring to the table and how an affordable component should or could either best it or match it in performance. To me, that becomes a narrative and not a reality. Yes, we all can create whatever narrative or form any opinion we want but that does not mean you know it is true.
Isn’t that how the court system works? If you don’t have proof of a damn thing then how can the judge believe what you are saying? It gets dismissed in a court of law right? He sends you the hell home and case is closed. " Sir, you are accusing him of stealing from your store. Do you have proof? A video? Witnesses? No your honor, I don’t ..I just think he stole it because he was the only person standing in the Isle before it went missing"
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