@whitecamaross as an owner of a Ref 6 as well I was wondering if it was up to the task of getting the most out of such an amp. The preamp on paper (money) isn’t in the same class as the Pass XS300 but I had a suspicion that it performs well above its price class. Thoughts on this? I was thinking about getting an amp in the same class (Boulder 2160 at $53k) but was told the Ref 6 might not be up to the task. Thoughts?
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
WC, Thanks. Your observations explain a lot. In general, I believe longer decays are due to more resolution in midrange fundamentals and their high harmonics, or HF. But your statement that the XS300 has more emotion, romance and their own flavor implies that it is more tube-like and has less HF. Indeed, this is something to think about more, as you live with both Pass and Merrill amps and try them with the various preamps you already have. Maybe "speed" is an artificial criterion, but resolution and tonal characteristics at all freq are the more important criteria. It's really about the music. How much of the enjoyment of a certain piece of music depends on how much detail is revealed, or how much is related to any sounds you enjoy, even if the sounds are more blurry. |
Last night I fired up the ref6 for 2 hours before I did any critical listening and the presentation was very very good. It’s actually very interesting to see how the xs300s let you hear the changes in your front end. For instance, I don’t think I’ll do anymore silver interconnects and I won’t do Odin 1 on the preamp but just the dac. With the focal Scala Evo you’ll realize how revealing the tweeter is and that you don’t need to add anymore detail by adding silver cables. I actually preferred using the Merrill powercord on the ref6 yesterday and Merrill interconnects throughout than using silver. That said , with electrostatics I found the opposite to be the best match. They glow with more detail when adding silver. System matching is KEY at this level but the one thing I am starting to realize is that the pass xs300 don’t quite need crazy expensive cables to impress. |
The xs300 and Merrill 118s couldn't be more different. It's like comparing orange juice vs soda. The Merrill 118s have incredible speed , control and dont really get in the way. The xs300 have a bigger soundstage , emotion, romance but they have their on flavor. The 118s best the xs300 in speed but lose when it comes to decay. It's a very hard comparison that I need to think about a little more. |
WC, No doubt that the XS300 is the best amp from Pass. But this is uncertain because I don't recall whether you heard the other Pass amps with the Merrill Christine preamp and also your neutral Esoteric source. The neutral/detailed Esoteric plus Christine are bringing the purest signal to the XS300 which bring our the very best from it. When you try the Ref 6 and Mac preamps with the XS300, you will know more. As you say, the XS300 is already tube-like, so the Mac and ref 6 will probably yield some softness and vagueness. Aside from the bass, how does the Merrill 118 compare to the XS300 for midrange/HF using the Christine preamp? This may take a while for you to answer, since you are still romancing the XS300. |
Look ive owned just about every current pass labs amp. If you all circle back to my previous statements, you’ll see I didn’t like pass labs but I also very clear about the xs pass amps. The xs 300 is s cost no object amp. It is the best amp ever made by Nelson Pass. If you think just because you’ve heard other pass amps that you know what the xs300 sounds like then let me tell you that your beyond wrong. This is NOTHING like the rest of the pass amps. 112 transistors per channel, external ps supply and crazy heat too. It’s something special without a doubt. Yes I also love the hell out the huge size too. If you are any of the following then this is NOT the amp for you: - you complain about the electric bill- you complain about heat - you cry about lifting heavy weights - you hate big engines , big cars - you care about bad mpg If you fall in any of the above, don't get a pass labs xs300. You'll hate it. If you are any of these then this amp will rock your world : - you love huge torque and horsepower and don't give a damn about bad gas mileage - you don't care to turn wrenches and don't care to fix engines - you love big old muscle cars -you appreciate raw power, brute Force |
I just plugged in the McIntosh mc2600 and the ref6. I need them both turned on for 2 hours before they go to battle. I briefly heard the mc2600 but it was cold and I did not like it at all. Maybe in 2 hours it will sound better but it did not sound better than the Christine. I get the feeling that the xs300s don't need help from a tube preamp. I think they already do a great job at sounding like tubes so adding more tube sound in the preamp doesn't seem to help it. However these are completely cold tube preamps. Lastly, I don't think I like silver interconnects with the pass amps. They add a little too much detail that isn't really needed. It almost overwhelms you. I'll update this in about 2 hours. The Christine preamp is no joke! |
"Pass’s detail is beautiful, but not as revealing of "warts and all" information compared to Merrill. That’s what’s missing." You have never heard these amps compared in the same system.....you are guessing.....not what he said, for sure. You may be right, you may be wrong. Let’s let him tell us what he HEARS! If you add a bunch of PPT stuff to your system right now, without doing anything else.....your jaw would be permanently glued to the floor. |
WC, Accept the Pass for what it is, if it is a used unit and broken in. There is a house sound for all Pass stuff, with minor variations, even though the XS300 may do the most good things of any Pass. I have the impression from your comments so far that it is powerful, but not as tight and neutral as the Merrill 118. Pass's detail is beautiful, but not as revealing of "warts and all" information compared to Merrill. That's what's missing. I suggest NOT pursuing the ARC ref 10 because that will increase the vagueness. The ref 6 is more detailed, so helps bring out the detail of the Pass. The Pass xs preamp will probably be better than ref 6 for beautiful detail, but probably not match the Merrill Christine preamp for this. Right now I think you are getting close to the best from the XS300, unless you want to return to soft, euphonic sound. |
WC, are you missing the Neo’s at all ? I would wonder how the Neo’s would present music in your new room, being driven by these Pass amps. As you are aware, I am a horn guy, so this question is more centered around you, but the Neo and Focal are very different, and you enjoyed your Neo’s immensely. The fact that you sold the Neo’s, creates a feeling for me, that there were things you were not happy about, with the Neo’s. The fact that " something is missing ", I needed to ask. Just a curiosity thing.... |
36 hours continuous playtime : The room is toasty but It really isn't bad. Here are my new findings: - the bass feels visceral as if someone is kicking the chair you sit on. - imaging imaging is perhaps the best I've ever heard. Right now I feel as if something is missing but I don't think it is the amps. I think i have mismatch somewhere and I am totally looking forward to elevating the performance of these amps. Pass labs told me yesterday that I should try interconnects , speaker cables and leave power cords for last because with their xs series the powercords don't quite make a huge impact due to their design and their external power supply. They also advised against speaker cables that have built in boxes because these amps have fried those boxes due to their huge current. Big no no. So where's my head at? I will try the ref6 today and then I am sure I'll begin to chase the pass labs xs preamp or another ref10. Upon my research, it appears that it is a pretty split decision as far as which preamp is the better match. Some have gone from the xs to the ref10 and vice versa. |
Update: 26 hours of continuous playtime : - the most intense imaging ive ever experienced - the scalas now sound taller and wider - the walls have totally vanished from the room - these amps have made the speakers do a disappearing act. I close my eyes and can't locate the speakers. - the highs are silky, feathery , light , layered and completely delineated. - the room temperature is 2 degrees higher after 26 hours of constant play. Not too bad - music sounds insane at any level which is indeed dangerous because you may find yourself listening at dangerous levels. - Electric bill will reflect the amount of fun time you've had each month. Up next: the ref6 will enter the chain to see if it has any chemistry with the xs300s |
Top 5 amps that I can recall at different points in my journey and in no particular order: Block audio Constellation centaur 2 Luxman 900u Pass labs xs300 Merrill 118s I asked the same question to a dealer friend of mine his top 5 are: Mephisto stereo Dag M400's MSB S500 NAIM NAP500DR VAC 452 iQ Pass labs xs300 |
WC, You said "the mids gained far more body and articulation." Usually there is a tradeoff between body and articulation. Tubes and SS like Pass that sound like tubes are strong in body, but weaker in articulation. At the other end of the spectrum, SS like Merrill are stronger in articulation but may sacrifice body. So how do the Pass and Merrill compare for articulation, detail, clarity? |
whitecamaross ... What are your 5 top amps now from best to least? Just looking for your opinion on a "as of late update". Thanks! |
The amps have been playing music for about 3 hours now after being in their boxes for the last 2 years. Here are my initial impressions given the facts above and using the Christine prramp: -Bass is mangling the woofers on the scalas as if they were being punched with a hammer from behind. -HUGE SOUNDSTAGE - LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG BUT VERY LOOOOOOOOOONG DECAYS that slowly fade out - the mids gained far more body and articulation. It feels as if each performer articulates everything much better. - incredible depth - zero fatigue at ANY VOLUME LEVEL. - Music seduces you more and has gained more emotion. - amps run hot but it doesn't seem to bother me since the AC vent is right above my head lol With that said, I might end up chasing down a pass labs preamp down the road. Maybe xp32? For powercords I am using the cardas xl on the amps and Odin on the dac. I might try Odin on the amps over tht weekend. |
Ok guys, The long awaited amplifiers have arrived. I am now the proud owner of the baddest amp I’ve seen in person and the brief moment I heard them today was just incredible. I heard bass that was subterranean, I heard detail , resolution , completeness from top to bottom. I am pleased to announce that I have FINALLY captured a pair of pass labs XS300 monos. :). Pictures to come soon |
I hope you still have the original Shunyata Denali so you can compare it to the new version 2. My original Denali, a few years old, may have lost its magic compared to the WOW effect in the beginning. The proprietary materials may have aged or broken in, so be careful of the initial WOW effect which may wear off in time. Probably D'Ag Momentum monos. I doubt you are stretching for the Relentless. |
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viber, I prefer my star quad 14 gauge CL3 speaker cable, over many more expensive brands and model cables I have tried, although, never tried the level WC and some others have tried.....but I must agree with everyone above. 18 gauge zip cord, does not give me that " fullness ", that " meat on the bones " punch, that I enjoy so much, and feel, is necessary, for the reproduction of music, I am looking for. 18 gauge speaker wire feels squeezed of dynamics, and yes, very bright, which to you, is detail. But, not full range coherent, to me. However, so you feel better, I am using 16 gauge cable to feed my wall bracketed patio speakers.....btw, I know Pierre from Mapleshade, and I understand what he listens for, as I feel I know what you listen for....but remember, this hobby is all about how different we all are, as listeners, with different sets of priorities. All good......Enjoy ! MrD. |
Concerning dogma, that is especially prevalent among high end cable companies whose diverse technical theories about what is ideal makes your head spin. What a product sounds like has very little to do with this dogma. The whole purpose of all the A-gon threads is to get unbiased listener feedback about how things really sound. I am not an engineer and am not pushing any technical agenda or dogma--what I discuss is solely based on my own listening over 50 years of experience in music and audio. I suggest that audiophiles get the opinions and listening impressions of non audiophile friends with musical expertise. They are only concerned with sound and not their egos about their big investments in prestigious brand names. The non audiophile musical experts will confirm what I have found in my listening. |
Why don't you just open your mind-- what do you have to lose but a little time snipping zip? Well, I opened my mind recently when a dealer I bought Nordost Frey 2 RCA interconnects from suggested that I give the Frey speaker cables a try. I still like the definition of the interconnects, so I wanted to try the speaker cables. Nothing but a disaster, like a foggy veil that forces you to drive 20 MPH instead of 60. My fast little Bryston 2.5 B SST2 amp slowed down to an old school murky tube amp like the Dynaco Stereo 70 I once had. That bad, I'm not kidding. With zip cord, your ARC will have more detail and retain its musicality. If you want more prestige, go for the Mapleshade thin cables which I will hear one day. Too bad--it's your loss. |
You guys that are skeptical of zip just because it is cheap, or that thicker wire conducts more current, need to just try it. My theory is that much of differences in wire relate to tonal balances as if they are tone controls. Zip will have a lighter tonal balance and emphasize detail over fullness compared to other wires. I have tried numerous wires over the years on different speakers to know this to be true. The Lamborghini analogies are not applicable. I guarantee that zip will increase the detail and tightness of your ARC or other tube stuff. Possibly the Mapleshade thin wires are even better than zip for clarity and detail. The Mapleshade designer has made the same observations as me about the murkiness of thick cables. Their upscale line, Omega Mikro is still much cheaper than many other companies mentioned here. You ignored me last year when I mentioned Merrill, although Guido deserves the credit for first bringing our attention to that. Now you proclaim Merrill to have the most transparent and accurate sound. I will audition the 116 soon. Just try zip, likewise. Incidentally, grey9hound is likely right about repeatedly recommending the Tekton Impact line of speakers. Ric Schultz, aka ricevs, the respected tweaker, whose $2200 amp EVS 1200 likely kills most expensive amps according to a few owners is enthusiastic about the Moab, a $4500 speaker in the Tekton line. I have not heard any Tekton speaker, but I like the concept of having small fast tweeter drivers cover a large range down to the lower midrange. |
I do not own a Lamborghini, but in very olden days, I "enjoyed" 18 gage zip cord as speaker wires for several years, until I could afford wire that was easily superior.... Amazingly, the 18 gager did "spin" vinyl and CDs as "fast" as upscale wires... A 58 minutes CD completed playback in exactly... 58 minutes... Not a second more *Grins!* And the above is just about the best thing zip cord did.... For the rest it felt constricted, hazy, dusty, boring, lacked detail, did not know the meaning of stage, promoted distortion, and was comfortably bested by every other cord I compared it to and eventually adopted... And was... utterly atrocious. The only wire I found worse than zip was some obscure speakerwire made by Zu... Never figured out how Zu achieved their spectacular perfformance flop. Saluti, G. |
WC, Please elaborate on the tonal differences between the Odin 1 and Merrill speaker cables with the 118's. Don't go back to assuming that more expensive means better. Please try no.16 or 18 zip cord for speaker wire. You have pennies to lose, and will find that midrange/HF detail will be better than any speaker wire you have tried. Bass will be tighter, but you probably won't like zip's lack of fullness that you crave. The ARC amp using zip will narrow the gap in detail with the Merrill using other speaker cable. |
Thought I'd chime in here. I had a busy time with work for about a year and haven;t been able to contribute since late last year. Just recently got something of an upgrade itch again so I began getting caught up on about page 80. That was several weeks ago and I am still only on page 118. Thanks to all of you who have made this such a great thread! On page 117 or thereabouts you group-called out Tech-Troll. Well done! :D Thank you WC for sharing so much of your journey with us. I for one cannot believe the patience you have shown with a number of posters who seem to be on here to only haze you. Lampizator was such a great find for me and lots of you here. I went through something similar when I upgraded my Oppo 205 with a tube output stage via Modwright. Lampizator is now on my radar. Looking forward to getting current with you all in a few weeks. Cheers! :) |
I tried using the nordost Odin 1 speaker cables and nordost odin 1 pc on the esoteric and that made things have a bit too much forwardness causing fatigue. I replaced the odin 1 pc with cardas xl pc on the dac and that fixed the issue. I also did a/b comparisons with Merrill's speaker cable vs nordost odin 1 and the odin 1 is on another level as it should be given the huge price gap between both. Nordost odin1 speaker cables with Merrill 118s is incredible. I also informed Merrill about this and he said they plan to display Merrill with nordost odin 1 on their next show. |
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