it cut me off before i could finish my edit .
Nordost Odin is silver plated copper It can be worse (fatiguing) than an all Silver cable like your Wireworld cables are.
They are fine at low to moderate listening levels , but you cannot crank them up without ripping your ears off.either silver or silver plated copper
Please try some Purist Audio design Anniversary or
Dominus
Interconnect or speaker cables .
Purist Anniversary or Dominus at low to moderate levels are Great ,but at high volume concert levels they are freaking awesome...ZERO FATIGUE.
I would be willing to bet that you will LOVE them .
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Purist Audio Design Anniversary or Dominus cables = Musicality and absolutely ZERO FATIGUE.. If you want a truly high end musical and fleshed out cable..
I would be willing to bet you will LOVE them .
Why do you limit yourself to only what your dealer carries ?
Nordost = Highly detailed almost bleached out (in some systems) but can be fatiguing because of this .
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You don’t seem to allow me to try with my own equipment what I want to do huh ? I said it above that I’m going to be tweaking. Was I not clear when I said I want to sit with the DCS dac and play with cables, etc and see what it does ? This is exactly what I am doing and will be doing. Not sure where I wrote that it is better than boulder 2010 ?? I don’t see where i implied that ? All I have noticed is that it has turned around from where it started. Does this mean it is a better preamp ?
I’ve been playing with the dac as a preamp since Sunday and I switched to the boulder today.
There’s a great deal of clarity that the dac captures along with a tremendous amount of resolution. It is outstanding at low to moderate volume levels but I still get my ears to fatigue. I can’t explain tbe effect that it has on me even with cardas xlr which aren’t exactly bright cables. Could it be the "too much of a good thing " effect?
I have made it sound better and better for sure but I still can’t capture the same level of musicality of the boulder. Soundstage is bigger with the boulder along with more forceful imaging. It is as if with the dac you have a fingernail that you clipped and is still sharp enough to scratch you but when you add the boulder , it is as if you are filing the sharp edges of this nail to smooth it out. The class a design of the boulder passes all the resolution but it rounds off the edges when it needs to. This allows for extended listening sessions because you don’t feel as if your ears get tired. You still get resolution and slam. When I use the dac as a preamp and let’s say a dynamic passage starts , I reach for the remote in order to turn it down a little and then turn it up again when the song mellows out , but this isn’t what I do with the boulder.
It is all about preferences with this gear. If your speakers are warm then you are better off with the dac directly into the amps. If you value resolution between your speakers and don't care for a large sound but rather just a normal size soundfield with a ton of detail then use the dac. But if you value a massive soundstage, control, rounded edges , muscularity, and the feeling that you are "there" as well as your speakers disappearing then go with the boulder. |
Suddenly, what ?!! So all that preamp is king praise was just bs...
Oh dear.
It seems your friends are more influential....than the soundstage inflation preamp song we normally read. Are you sure you have enough huge bass slam going direct ?...
Maybe your ears and preferences are shifting.....
to......
Viber’s land....
Oh dear, this is huge.
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Cardas clear audio and dcs seems to be a match. I am liking a lot what I’m hearing. Someone said for me to try clear audio beyond xlr. Hmmm.
Anyhow, I feel as if the cardas clear audio has added musicality to the dcs' somewhat analytical presentation. It made it more relaxed while still unfolding all the resolution it has.
Indeed , this is starting to become very interesting and a lot of fun.
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I am trying some cardas clear audio xlr interconnects right now and I am very impressed. I like how real things are sounding with just using this cable from the dac and into the amps. |
Fantastic WC. Looking forward to the duel. |
Up next:
As you know I am in tweaking mode so I will be doing a shootout of the new Wireworld starlight 8 USB vs platinum 7. I am probably going to be going all out and do a shootout of the nordost odin 1 vs Odin 2 powercord on the dac in the next few weeks. Will the Odin 2 live up to the hype ? Stay tuned |
3 days of non stop playtime before the shootout took place. |
Were all the amplifiers listed above warmed up and fully broken in including cables before it was reviewed? I ask because some requires 100 plus hours to break-in as the sound really change when it does.
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We didn't really do extensive comparisons. |
So the Odin 1 PC was better than that $20K power cord?
Dave
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I want to say that it is a toss up between powercords and speaker cables for me. That said I think it is as follows:
1. Powercord
2. Speaker cable
3. Interconnects
Nothing has bested by Odin 1 speaker cables or PCs so far but they take a very very loooooong time to break in. |
WC,
By now you’ve listened to a variety of equipment with a variety of cables.
Are you able to draw any general conclusions as to the relative importance, in terms of their relative ability to positively (or negatively) affect sound quality, of the three categories of power cables, speaker cables, and interconnects?
I know everyone has an opinion on this as to how the three rank 1-3 in terms of importance, and if you ask 100 people you might get about 33 each saying a different of the three is most important.
I’m just wondering if you’ve formed such an opinion by this point?
Not asking about specific brands necessarily, just moreso your general guidance as to the question of: If I want most sound improvement, start with ____ cables; next _____, and finally ______, based on your results.
Thanks!
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Also consider that you’ve been listening to the K1 house sound for much longer. It definitely takes some time to reset your wars which is why professional reviewers take months. Additionally, I believe the Vivaldi takes at least a week of playing to properly warm up. As for the Boulder. Keep it!! |
@whitecamaross Might I suggest some top of the line Purist Audio Design cables. At the level you are at , you would want the Anniversary Line or at least Dominus. Eric Love is a Purist Audio Dealer and will give you a very good price. Purist Audio cables at the Dominus and Anniversary Line are the best cables that i have ever heard. I think adding just ICs or Speaker cables or USB can make a huge difference. I think you need just one Purist Audio Dominus or Anniversary somewhere in the chain. I completely regret ever selling my Dominus REV C interconnect cables. Again,for me they were the best that I have ever heard . email Eric for quote at audiosurroundings@yahoo.com Eric Love 770-695-1312 Or you can call him for a quote He is close to you , i think . http://www.audiosurroundings.com/catalog.php/Ericlove/pg5992 Looks like he is in Boca Raton with an Atlanta area code for his cell # Tell him Dennis Palmer (me) recommended him. |
I am in talks to possibly bring the upsampler back here and see where this takes me.
It pains me accept this but my mind has begun to contemplate the possibility of selling my boulder 2010 which by the way , boulder has told me it is THE ONLY black boulder 2010 that they ever built which cost a 25% upcharge and 4 months of extra work on the metal plus silicone treatment the chassis has to not allow it to change color overtime. Ugh. I am mentally trying to block that idea. I’m really really trying not to sell it. Best solid state preamp I’ve owned by miles.
One last thing, I'm either really crazy or still a little hung over but I am starting to feel like the dcs has made a drastic change over the last 24 hours in terms of sound and I gotta believe the cheap Wireworld USB is not capable of making it sound so good as it has been today. I'm attributing it to the amount of playback time I've thrown at it since Thursday. |
Last night , USB was the best sound we heard. We tried AES and it lost liveliness , detail , depth. It was not even a contest for us. The FTA USB cable killed the expensive AES transparent reference cable I tried. |
I’m told the Aurender will work better as a NAS. Would be interesting to see it streamed, but I know the Vivaldi alone doesn’t have that capability like the Rossini and Bartok. |
WC
There are many many posts on the Internet that the AES output from any of the Aurender music servers to
many if not most of the elite DACs out there is the best sounding digital connection - by far!
I own the Aurender N10 and dCS Rossini and have experimented with many outputs and cables and it is absolutely true in my system. Nothing is even close.
This was also true with several Esoteric SACD/CD/Transport/DAC’s that I have owned.
In fact, all I read about lately is how inferior a USB connection is for
many DACs and Music Servers.
You might be missing out on something important in your evaluation.
I have also found that the quality of the AES cable is critical - I’m guessing that this is no surprise to many either. |
WC, I am surprised you compared the Boulder Preamp to the dCS DAC as a preamp. Seems like comparing apples to oranges with the dCS coming up short against an excellent preamp like the new Boulder......but maybe not after reading your notes. I am a dCS stack owner and know the strengths and minuses of the stack especially the DAC and Upsampler. Using the DAC as a preamp is not one of it’s strong points for me. The dCS stack or partial system with the DAC, clock and upsampler gives you it’s best sound. The DAC by itself is formidable but will fall short of what the best preamps have to offer. I have used the Wireworld Platinum 7, FTA and my favorite Nordost V2 USB’s with the dCS Vivaldi DAC. I can relate to what you heard with the FTA and why the WW was a better match. If you can get a Nordost V2 USB to try between the DAC and Aurender it will be interesting session. Love your journey and thanks for sharing with us.
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Fair enough’ when you do get a server you should still set it up properly like I described and a server will elevate your system.
Im surprised we don’t see you on Whatsbestforum,Audioaficionado or ComputerAudiophile sites contributing they have alot a great threads on Wilson, Pass, Boulder, Aurender and server/streaming.
Has always great following your journey.
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I don't own the w20. It was only last night. If I go with a music server I might do the n10 aurender. |
WC, now that have the w20 music server you need to use it through a audiophile switch like Aqvox and a few others I cant seem to think of. The switch needs to be as close has possible to the w20. The w20 should not be running off your household ethernet, the switch should be powered by a LPS and both the switch & LPS need to be on a proper shelf and if you have any extra stillpoints put them under the LPS. This will isolate everything and you will be surprised by the improvement in sq this makes.
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Yes it does but it doesn't have the same accuracy as the boulder. |
I’d have to agree with the person who said live music has a huge soundstage. Also, didn’t you say you felt the Ref 6 had an even wider soundstage? |
ok so last night we did the 2nd shootout between DCS Vivaldi and Esoteric Grandioso K1 using the W20 Aurender music server.
Here is what i gathered:
- Vivaldi has more resolution
- Vivaldi seems to have a tad more bass while remaining tight and controlled
- when cranking up the system to loud levels, the vivaldi makes me cringe a little during certain songs which does not seem to affect me when using the Esoteric
- The esoteric sounds more "rounded" on the highs yielding less fatigue at just about any volume level
- Soundstage size and depth is about the same on both
- i found the esoteric a tad more musical with less of the DCS "in your face " presentation
if i were to describe the DCS, i’d say " high resolution" and for the Esoteric K1 " very musical"
Of course, and as expected, we had several people here that had different opinions. Some said that the esoteric and dcs were not really far apart while others said the DCS was far better than the Esoteric based on what they heard here.
Anyhow, we did an "in between" shootout of the DCS vs Boulder 2010 as a preamp, but we used a very expensive powercord on the DCS (i forget the brand, but this cable retails for $20,000 and it weights about 45 lbs) and here are the comments from people:
- DCS has more immediacy, coherence, and organic feeling than using the boulder 2010 (please remember we were using a $20,000 power cord on the DCS for this exercise)
- Boulder 2010 has a much bigger soundstage with more depth, height, perhaps even more control on the low frequencies
- Boulder 2010 is "inflating" the soundstage which makes it less coherent than the DCS which taints the presentation
- One person responded to the comment above about the boulder 2010 "inflating the sound" by saying to the person above:
" no disrespect to your opinion with the "inflating comment" but you really need to get out more often and go to live events. Live events, especially those that are in actual arenas, auditoriums or venues HAVE a big sound so the boulder is trying to recreate this effect by expanding the soundstage rather than keeping everything more confined which is what the DCS is doing plus the boulder has more dynamics which the DCS could not match. The boulder is trying to remove the walls here and trying to "take you there".
So after everything was said and done, i stayed listening some more on my own and noticed that the DCS for some reason "bites" my ears a little when playing at relatively loud volumes so i decided to dig in my cable bin and found a Wireworld Starlight 7 USB which is way cheaper than the FTA USB cable we used and as soon as i did that the slight edginess i was getting was totally gone. Of course, some other good qualities of the presentation were diminished as well, but this gave me food for thought which is that i might want to revisit the Wireworld USB Platinum 7 (or the the new Platinum 8 USB that will release next month) and see if this actually is what i have been needing to do on the DCS?
This machine (or perhaps my entire rig) is quite transparent. i was actually surprised at the massive change the system had by just swapping from the FTA USB and going to the Wireworld Starlight 7 USB.
AS I HAD STATED BEFORE, i am going to keep playing with the DCS and probably begin to try all sorts of USB cables. Yes, i will also use these with the Esoteric and do my own personal shootouts. After living with both for a few days or weeks and actually having enough "seat time" with both and taking some other financial things into consideration, i will make a determination as to which unit will be the one i want to keep and which one i will sell. i can't keep both here so one will need to go at some point. Until that day comes, i will keep playing and having fun and on to the next !
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Regarding trying an R2R dag, TotalDac are often mentioned and I have heard and seen them at audio shows. Could be worth a try if you find one.
I recently heard a Kallista Dreamplay streamer+dac but those are probably hard to find used in the US. |
V,
You’re once again engaging in wishful recharacterization to bend WC’s descriptions to fit the fanciful narrative you’d like to see.
One problem.
WC hasn’t said the things you claim he has. He has gently admonished you now twice in the last page.
Please stop, and let WC’s assessments speak for themselves without adding your euphonic overlays, thereby sabotaging WC’s descriptive clarity.
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Shootout 2 has just finished. Lots of interesting things occurred. One of which is that changing the USB cable from FTA to Wireworld really really did magic for the dcs. I'll explain later. |
I didn't say the esoteric blows away the Vivaldi.... I said it has more synergy with my set up and it seems to do a better job with piss poor sources... I also said I am going to keep trying to play with it and do cable changes and tweaks.
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MSB > Esoteric and dCS big time.
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kren0006,
WC has made preference statements in both camps of sound. Sometimes he likes neutrality/clarity, other times it is sweetness/musicality. I really didn't know what he meant when he said at first that the Esoteric blows away the Vivaldi. Now that he clarified that he meant the superiority refers to the Esoteric's sweetness/musicality, it is more informative of his findings.
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We are using the Esoteric K01XS on our main system feeding the GT Audioworks- which is is essentially the same dac as the K1. However, we will be auditioning the new Lampizator Pacific dac this week.
Depending on the shoot out Sound Insight may become a Lampi dealer.
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I quite like the Mosiac app. Very easg to use, though not as feature rich as Roon. |
@whitecamaross
Vivaldi streaming: I had to refresh my knowledge on this. I was referring to the dCS Mosiac app that was introduced earlier this year. Couldn’t find exact info on it for the Vivaldi stack, but if I remember right, I was told that the software installs in the upsampler. The only reason I previously mentioned it was if you have that it will potentially save you the cost of a streamer, PC, and interconnect. I am just becoming familiar with dCS at this point as my dealer just took on the line. Both the Bartok and Rossini have the Mosiac app and so you save on a streamer. I have not yet had the chance to demo the Mosiac app against a standalone streamer but I'd like to.
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Dave: no... please no, don’t do it! |
Hi WCSS; Not sure if your ready to have another go at the Luxman M-900U but I am getting ready to sell mine; It's 5 months old and I'm the original owner (purchased from Lux dealer);
MSB Dacs are incredible. You definitely should put on your radar;
Cheers,
Dave |
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Femto 93?? For about 25% of that price you can get a MUCH Better Femto 33 Clock (Lower is better)....he doesn't need the Dac. The lowest ANY MSB Clock goes is Femto 33 and that's for like 80K MSRP. |
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Esoteric Clocks are a complete Rip-Off and pale in comparison to others I mentioned at 1/3 the price (Depending on model). |
Esoteric will go against dcs again tonight. We will try some Kimber xlr interconnects (top model) and a Wireworld USB cable to see if it’s just a matter of cable matching. I’m excited to see what the outcome will be tonight.
I’m also a little disappointed that dcs sells you one tire at a time for your car . They force you to buy all 4 tires or else your car will ride like you’re off-roading. That said this will serve its purpose for some of you going forward. You either buy at least 2 chassis from dcs or go elsewhere. There’s an opportunity for me to bring the esoteric clock as well as the dcs clock. That would be one HUGE test because if the esoteric still bests the dcs with both using their respective clocks then I’d probably be an esoteric man for a long long time.
Yes I want to try msb but I’m not going to do so unless I locate a piece that makes sense for me. If I went to buy a msb dac for what dealers are asking for it and It ended up not besting my esoteric then think of the huge loss id take to sell that msb. It’s a pretty expensive trial that I’m not willing to endure. I need to be wise on what to buy and where or else I'd be sleeping outside with the dog in no time. |
Esoteric is king of digital. All the others with their R2R or Ring dac technology are living in the past...they were ruling 15 years ago , not anymore.
These days, multibit mesures better and performs better. Esoteric has learned how to get the best out of it. |
riaa,
I agree with every one of your points and I was aware that Esoteric had external clocking as an option. I didn't think that they emphasized this in the way that DCS does. I have not listened to the Esoteric other than as part of a couple systems at Axpona so I was careful not to comment at all on how I thought it would sound or performed.
I also like the direction WC is taking things today.
Just restating my main point, I think it is important to review equipment in their best light, especially if you are comparing them at their least. Perhaps a better DCS shootout candidate for this type of comparison (single box vs. single box) would be the less expensive Bartok or the all-out Vivaldi One.
Also, I couldn't agree more with you than about your affinity for the Ref 10. My dream system would be Vivaldi One, ARC Ref 10, Ref 160 Monos, Odin and any number of Sonus Faber, Wilson, YG, Magico... speakers (depending on my mood for the day)! |
I second what @grey9hound said: you should try R2R DACs, and MSB Technology DACs are the way to go if you do so. You can start with MSB Premier DAC with upgrade power supply and clock |
Quick update
Tonight we will do round 2 of this shootout by using the aurender w20. Will this be what the dcs needs to distance itself ? Could it be that the dcs is just " the facts " and it is giving me what it is receiving from the laptop even though the esoteric is doing better magic with the laptop.?
I have scratched my head about it and it could be that the esoteric is indeed better at cleaning up a piss poor source than dcs is but what will happen if I use an excellent server on both? |
@riaa.
I agree with what you said above. I didn’t take the time to roll tubes with arc and yes a clock is something that I almost bought for the esoteric the other day.
Anyhow, I did hear the esoteric with the w20 aurender last weekend and it was insane how much better it was.
As far as the dcs, sure I’ll play with it a little more to see if it can redeem itself but as of right now it has its bags packed.
I’m just super shocked to be honest. Esoteric just really made me have a whole new level of respect for it. Granted, this is all about system synergy but I just expected to hear a different outcome. Over the next few days I’ll let the dcs keep playing music and place it on a different shelf , try a nordost odin 1 pc on it etc. I’m going to work with what I’ve got in here.
Oh one last thing , I did try the dcs upsampler when I got the dcs dac and it certainly made it better although the network connection was waaaaaay inferior to USB. Even the dealer who installed it here was shocked that the Ethernet connection sounded muffled and obscure in comparison to USB but he heard it with his own ears in here and he agreed with me.
I am going to be running a couple of errands today And then I’ll be back to put my comparisons from last night’s shootout.
PS. We tried the dcs again as a preamp using the cardas xl PC and it sounded better than the first time I tried it BUT the boulder just really really exposes it. See, if I didn't have the boulder 2010 then I wouldn't know any better but having it here makes it so easy to hear the kinks from other preamps. |
V,
Your question: what does “sound better” mean? would be a solid question on any other thread, but on this 168 page thread, by now if you don’t know what WC’s (that’s what we’re talking about - his conclusions) sound quality parameters are, then you haven’t been paying attention. He has listed them hundreds of times - any time generally he does a detailed review or comparison; just search his posts and you’ll see.
“Zero competition,” “Sent packing” and “man’s job” are among strongest descriptions he’s ever used so obviously it “sounded better” across all of his parameters or he’d have enumerated the distinctions as he is wont to do when competitive.
Finally, I totally agree that many people value different sound characteristics. Indeed, that is a main thesis of your detractors: that no such thing as one size fits all.
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Mr Snyder, Esoteric DOES have the ability to use different clocks (Cybershaft, Mutec GMBH Ref 10 etc) so I have no idea where your getting your info that the Esoteric cant be upgraded. WCSS Stock K-1 is nowhere close to reaching its full potential. I applaud him for trying different cables etc BUT in many cases he ditches gear that he hasn't done enough research on. The REF 10 (And any other Tube gear) he simply used the generic tubes the thing came with....always a BIG mistake. K-1 will be the same thing...or any other Esoteric Spinner for that matter. A different clock will bring a night/day difference. Plenty of info on this subject on AUDIO AFICIONADO website under the Esoteric Topic |
