I agree with thezaks on this one. Viber has some valid point here as well. The top ten myths WC spoke of are his experiences not necessarily the absolute truth. When discussing DACs vs preamps its all system dependent. WC gave his opinions based on his experiences with his system. Some People will prefer Dac direct in some systems, some will prefer a preamp. Depends on which preamp and which dac, also the gain And Sensitivity of the amp, output of the dac matters too. Same with preamps. It’s all system dependent. The biggest variable is the goal of the user. One person may want more detail so one else more warmth or dynamics. Depends on what is important to you as a listener. There’s not a absolute right or wrong here.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
Hi guys, Look, as I explained above, there are circumstance where the dac can be used as a preamp and I think I even made a post about this like a month ago. What I simply wanted to say is that dac into preamp is not the solution for every single situation. Personally, with my gear, it is too bright with the mephisto and to some extent it was the same with the momentum s250. Also, with the magnepan it simply NEVER came close to what the audio research ref6se linestage did. You all can watch that video where I used the Merrill element 118s plus ref6 and yoi all were blown away by it. Then why didn’t that happen when using the dac direct? Because as I mentioned, many times, synergy is key when doing this. This synergy hasn’t existed for me with the countless set ups I have put together and I’ve used the dac as a preamp. That said, in my opinion, based on my own trials, no dac has ever bested what the momentum hd Preamp did. However, I understand having a preamp that expensive isn’t for everyone and If your budget is 8k for a preamp for instance, I can understand why a good dac might be the better way to go. There is nothing wrong with both approaches but to say that dac direct is king and the way to go is not accurate. That is the myth. I have filmed two presentations which are with preamp and without preamp while the rest remained the same. I am also not using a crazy expensive Preamp either and you will hear how different both sound. |
After going back and reading reviews on the Benchmark products, it does seem they are extremely good especially when considering their price point. I have thei DAC3 HGC as one of the many I have, and I have most of the flagship headphones avaible, and would probably add their HPA4 headphone amp if I didn’t already have the Woo Audio WA33 and their 3ES for electrostatic headphones. Even their amps seems to be excellent, again more so when considering price points. I might have to pick up those and the LA4 at some point for one of the extra room systems. |
whitecamaross ... there are circumstance where the dac can be used as a preamp and ... dac into preamp is not the solution for every single situation ...I wouldn't dispute that at all. Indeed, I think most systems benefit from a good preamp, such as the ARC you've praised. |
So in conclusion, dac direct IS NOT the way to go all the time ESPECIALLY when you are using amps of the caliber of the mephisto. The mephisto thins out, soundstage colapses somewhat the control isn’t there. I suspect this would be the same effect if you were using the monster boulder amps. Some amps need a true "race car" driver behind the wheel. You can however get away with it by using a dac, but until you strap a well designed linestage into the mix,you really wouldn’t know. If DAC direct yielded the best results for me, hell I wouldn’t be burning money on preamps. I’d be done with them. If your top 2 priorities are detail and resolution and you don’t exactly have a big room to fill nor do you crank things up too much, yes a dac would do the job. That said, doing the job and doing it RIGHT are two different things. Believe me, when the dcs vivaldi left and I used the Rossini as a preamp, I couldn’t believe the difference. As a preamp, the Rossini gets the job done but that’s it. The Vivaldi was another level in terms of preamplification. It certainly gave a ton of Preamps I’ve owned a run for the money but I didn’t get to test it against my Momentum HD. Video drops today at 2pm.ET Give me your impressions please. |
I stand by my statement made on 9/20/20 before the 10 audio myths video was released. The last two videos sound very detailed and spacious but for me they lack body, warmth and richness. Going straight from dac to amp, specifically the Mephisto as good as it is, might be too much of a good thing.....not sure power cords or cables would be able to improve things. The D Agostino HD Preamp with the Mephisto and the VIP / Dragon HC cables into the Maggies I believe would be much better. I do realize the cost ratio of components and cables to speakers is ridiculous, just talking about tonal balance. |
There is at least one unaddressed factor to consider, on the subject of direct vs added active preamp. I can't figure out from the DCS site whether there is an option for a direct output without going through additional analog circuitry for gain as well as the volume control function. I think I recall the Esoteric Dac just had a fixed output which required a separate preamp to at least set the volume control, with additional gain as needed. As a purist strategy of minimizing the number of circuits in the chain, this is the way to go. Too bad the DCS seems to have the best D/A conversion technology, and my guess (correct me if I am mistaken on this) is that connecting the DCS Rossini directly to the power amp requires the use of the preamp and volume control circuits included with the DCS. Since DCS technology is about the D/A conversion, and the additional gain is just provided as a convenience, I have no doubt that another dedicated preamp gain stage + volume control could be superior to the gain stage and volume control of the DCS. But if the DCS could do the SOTA D/A conversion without the additional circuitry for gain, and then use a separate SOTA line stage for gain, that would be the SOTA way to go. So if my guess about the current configuration of the DCS is correct, then the discussion revolves around the sonic benefits and drawbacks of using an additional preamp. This is the equivalent of using 2 tandem preamps in the system--that of the DCS plus that of the additional preamp. This discussion is not just restricted to DAC's, but it involves other applications, such as using an FM tuner which has its own volume control. The FM tuner could be used directly into the power amp, if there was enough gain, or used with an additional preamp to get more gain which is like using 2 preamps in tandem. In another application with my turntable/phono cartridge, before I got my EQ which had a volume control, I had the life changing discovery that using my fixed gain phono stage direct into the power amp got rid of veils and provided much more transparency and musical information than using an extra line stage. It just so happened that with many recordings, by accident the phono stage gain alone produced the volume I wanted. Other recordings required more gain, so I tried a few line stages. I enjoyed the ability to play at higher volumes, but for other music, adjusting the volume of the line stage to unity gain, I disliked the veiling and loss of information from the added line stage. Rather than claiming the increased clarity/transparency by omitting the added line stage is a myth, it is more truthful to say that if someone likes more fullness and less in-your-face brightness, then the best choice is to go for the added preamp. However, if someone like me values clarity/detail, the added preamp is a disadvantage. This is true at all price levels. Although I was impressed that the Merrill Christine adds less veiling than the ARC ref 6se, it is still not quite as transparent as omitting it. The videos showed all this. Lastly, this thread is about one expert's (WC) personal preferences, WC welcomes different opinions and encourages all input, presented respectfully. I am sure some of his clients have my preferences, so he can tailor his advice to their preferences, and others have preferences that are more in line with most members of this thread. All this helps his appeal to a wider audience, which I hope helps his consulting business as a whole. |
Lot of good points viber. The Rossini can be run direct and the output Can be adjusted from 0.2v, 0.6v, 2v and 6v as well as digital volume control. In 99% of the systems I’ve heard, I personally always preferred the preamp over direct. However many like the direct approach, I know some of Wilson’s employees use the DCS dac direct using the Wilson speakers. when I run mine direct it still sound great I just prefer the preamp. I also like the capability of switching in different sources. For me I always felt The preamp increased soundstage depth And breath, dynamics and bass QUALITY And even some improvement in tonal balance. Better weight of the instrument. Maybe not quite as detailed but only a slight difference. |
carey1110--We are saying the same things about DCS direct vs with a preamp added. But I am still not clear about whether the DCS can be used with only its volume control but without its own preamp gain stage. WC--Now that you have done a good job with the 13A and the bass now in balance with the panels, I still hear a loss of clarity in the opening voice of Q&A-Fink compared to the 20.7. The male voice has fundamentals in the 140-300 Hz range, but the overall tone depends on the midrange and HF overtones. Here is where the 20.7 excels. Again, the problem is with the convex curved panels of the 13A which roll off midrange and especially HF info. Carey1110 has confirmed my findings in his experience with straight vs curved panels. The 20.7 and Alexia 2 are still your references. Since the 13A is played with the top Mephisto and cables, I don't expect it to have a chance with other components. |
jetter cleeds, after all these years of his great postings, even if WC should make an occasional mistake, we would rather listen to an expert. There are plenty of threads where negative attitudes are welcome.My intent was to add some clarity, not to hurt your feelings. I’m not sure why you think it’s "negative" for some to bust a myth, but not for others. |
@cleeds My intention is to present with facts and actual ownership of components doing my own trials. I do not know what else to do other than what you see me do here and on youtube. It is a FACT for ME, based on my own trials with my own equipment that a dac direct into an amp mated to a speaker so inefficient such as the 20.7 has NO BALLS to really drive the amp and tell it to wake up the speaker. It feels as if the sound becomes more one dimensional and does not open up top to bottom, left to right just like @carey1110 mentioned above. He also owns Alexia 2s just like i do and has the DCS Rossini and he is essentially echoing what i have been saying based on his own trials. He also feels the preamp adds more body, more of a submersed feeling to the presentation. Lastly, and i hate to give it away TODAY, but i will do it. Do you know WHY the logans sound "not so impressive" when it comes to bass? because i have been using the Mephisto with the dac direct. Just WAIT until you hear the presentation with the Merrill Audio in the mix... You will hear the tonality of the bass change drastically. Yes, i have owned 3 pairs of logans and YES the bass sound signature of the logans also changes even though they have internal class d amps running them. I had a long lengthy conversation about this phenomenon with Martin Logan last year and they confirmed that their speakers also display the characteristics of the amplifier driving the speaker EVEN through their own built in amplifiers. You will hear first hand, soon enough, how NOT SO GOOD the Rossini is when it comes to bass control with the Mephisto. It feels as if the Mephisto is being driven by a 13 year old. It can’t control the the amplifier’s massive power reserves, it can’t inject the necessary juice to open up the sound of the mephisto and it sounds bright after 30 mins of listening. |
Viber I'm not sure if the Rossini has a built in gain stage or just a volume control. I’m inclined to think it’s an adjustable gain and isn’t bypassed. However How they control that and weather or not it is added circuitry I don’t know. I assume it’s controlled digitally because I can control it from my iPad. I’m sure you wondering if by running direct you are somehow degrading the signal by running though some sort of volume control. Frankly I don’t know but I doubt there’s a difference since I can still control the volume with my iPad when I’m using a preamp if I wanted too. However I leave in in the max position when I use a preamp. Maybe the max position disengages something. Not sure. |
“Rather than claiming the increased clarity/transparency by omitting the added line stage is a myth, it is more truthful to say... ” See, this is my exact point about Viber. Took him less than 8 hours to prove it. He is telling WC how he should think. He is telling WC how he should characterize what WC hears even tho he has never heard any of this. It would be funny if it wasn’t so predictable regarding Viber. |
I am going to be brutally honest here: my dcs Rossini with clock accomplishes the following when plugged into the Gryphon Mephisto:
|
That’s true WC with regards to ML bass taking on the signature of the driving amp you are using. The reason is that the ML built in amp takes it’s signal from the driving amp not from a preamp. Therefore in a since the driving amp acts as a preamp to the built in class D amp. I owned the ML prodigy And ML told me the better amp you use the better the bass is as well. |
carey1110 The Prodigy sounded great biamped with identical amps on high and low side of the passive crossover, my brother has a pair of Summit X and they never sounded that good with their built in amplification. Does the Rossini have a fixed set of outputs and a separate set for volume controlled output ? |
WC, You certainly have fixed the bass problem on the previous video of the 13A. My point in discussing the comparison on the song, Q&A-Fink is that what is still inferior to the 20.7 is midrange/HF overtones which render the male voice overall colored vs on the 20.7. This voice is played at a low/moderate SPL level where the DCS direct shouldn't have a handicap. For this song, and similar non demanding music at moderate SPL's, the problem is the speaker, not the lack of an added preamp. I'm sure the 13A will have more fullness and dynamics when an active preamp is added. You can try both the 20.7 and 13A with an active preamp, but I predict that the speaker differences on this simple song will still be similar. For more dynamic music, probably the same as well--the curved panel of the 13A is more colored and less transparent than the 20.7. |
carey1110, You said, "I think of a preamp as a sound shaper. Takes the raw signal and perhaps embellishes it to creat a certain type of soundstage or sound. All seem to be a little different at how they portrait the music. So many to choose from." That is absolutely correct. So those people who want to color their sound in a certain way can look for a preamp that gives them what they want. But for me, I want the maximum transparency of the "raw signal"--an excellent description of yours. If I don’t need the increased volume of an added preamp, I don’t want it. BTW, what preamp are you using? |
viber6 I find it to be something of a paradox that you continuously advocate not using a preamp for best transparency, when you use a Rane equalizer with “judicious” adjustment in the treble as a preamp. And don’t start again on the transparency of Rane. Compared to the modern preamps Jay uses it is a pool of cloudy electronics. |
Viber- the only thing I would say to that is: that I feel if you’re trying to get as close to what live music sounds like Consider this. During the recording process you loose a lot so even if you hear everything on the recording you are still missing a lot. Things that will involve you emotionally like live music does may be gone. Maybe the preamp with help Return some things that were lost, like dynamics, soundstage, harmonic overtones etc. Even tho they are synthetic they may have value in returning some of the emotional connection. After all isn’t that why we listen to music in the first place. However if you go for just the facts you may loose something compared to the actual performance and the emotional connection. If the recording is perfect you may get close however very few recordings are perfect. Personally I find a GOOD preamp is a lot more involving to me and a lot more pleasurable to listen to. So our preferences differ in that regard however I can appreciate you side as well. |
It’s what you like best and what works best for your application. Hearing the Merrill Audio preamp back in the mix last night really woke me up again. I have been using the dac straight into the mephisto and I just couldn’t connect with the music. I didn’t want to sit and listen for long periods of time. I almost just wanted to film video for you all so I have something to present and then shut the music off and watch a movie. I’m actually SHOCKED now that I think about this. I’ve listened to the mephisto maybe 4 times in the last 10 days? That’s abnormal for me and I realize it is because of: -The Alexias haven’t been used -Dac has been connected into amp -ML 13a arrived and I had to do room correction etc. As good as the 20.7 and 13a are given their price points, it is a TOUGH ACT TO FOLLOW for many speakers when you have been used to listening to an Alexia 2 or a speaker of that caliber. You almost want to not listen to anything at all if it’s not what you are used to. Granted, earlier throughout my journey when I had not owned the Alexias and Neoliths of the world etc I didn’t really know any better. I couldn’t miss anything I hadn’t heard or owned. I’ve been fooling around more with my jvc nx7 projector and a sony 295es projector I bought last week than actually listening to my rig. I feel disconnected with a dac direct AT LEAST with my current system. It is as if I push play on the dac and then my brain asks me "what time does the music start to play?" |
I want to be clear: I am by no means trying to convince anyone here to use a preamp for their system instead of a dac direct into amplifier. I am simply giving my opinion with my own system and room. That said, maybe one day in the near future there will be a dac that could change the way we are articulating things right now and totally change our perspective. I’d be thrilled if that day ever came because that means I can sell all my preamps. If I could have 20 of you come over and do a blind fold comparison of my dcs Rossini vs a Momentum hd preamp, I think there would be many more believers. |
@speedbump: Excellent point. Can’t argue there. Let’s not forget one additional thing here: the partnering power amp has a lot to do with this too. I feel like the upper echelon amplifiers don’t tolerate dacs as a preamp BUT I will need to investigate this further. Maybe manufacturers do this on purpose ? Maybe they force you to buy Preamps by making their top models more demanding of the rest of your system? Not sure. |
Kren, my problem with preamps begins with; they require another power cord, interconnect, vibration control and shelf. Even more important is the potential for impedance mismatches. I have owned a handful of dac/pres over the last 2 years (all ~ $2K MSRP), which at least eliminates one set variables, but when I upgraded my Oppo 105 to a Linear Power Module (<$200) and replaced the OEM IEC and wire tail to the power supply and bypassed the 110/220 switch (total investment as I purchased my 105 new <$1400: doing so eliminated a second set of variables= $$$$s saved. The resultant sound is so good, I no longer use a preamp. For those who don’t know the 105 has a Variable Volume Control, and can be modified further than the basic mods I did FYI, unlike WCs comment with the Rossini having a one dimensional sound stage, mine is wide, deep, holographic (when the music is), plays the entire frequency range with minimal interference, is warm when the musics is and cool when it's not.... AND, I get to play SACDs and DVD-as hth |
Great! Not sure why you are addressing me on that. I don’t even have a strong opinion on the matter. But WC does, and that’s what one of his top 10 myths concerned. What I was agreeing with was the superior performance of preamps vs direct in his videos, but due to playback limitations I’m not gonna go to mattresses based on that justification. What I have a strong opinion against is saying dac direct always superior for pure sound quality, which is what Viber says and which is wrong. WC has proven that is wrong. WC has clarified several times exactly what his stance is now so I won’t try to speak for him |