WC it was a long time coming but thank you it needed to be said. I've been a long time follower but don't comment much as I don't play in your league: retired with a simple system Pass Int250 and Wilson Yvettes. I'm not jealous of your system I enjoy mine same as you take great delight in what you are doing and wish you well in your endeavor. It has gotten harder to follow your thread lately with 3 or 4 responders constantly interjecting and pushing their own agendas into the thread, it's unfortunate there is no way to block the a..holes. You always use car analogies; it's the same with people who read Road and Track who will never ride in a Ferrari but still buy the magazine. I am sure there are quite a few like myself who read and enjoy your thread and don't comment or try to preach their beliefs. Wishing you luck with your journey and thanks for taking us along for the ride, and ignore some of the useless potholes and roadkill
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
also please be amused by this little snippet from an earlier model Jay! (and certainly not having a go - i just spent major $ on an ethernet cable!) but oh how the tables have turned :-) 21st April 2017 "I agree. i have tried other high end brands and i honestly can't hear a difference. To me, spending a lot of money on cables is really a big mistake. First off, when you try to sell them after you are done with them, you will take a bath trying to sell them. You will be lucky if you can recuperate 25% of the value. That said, there are plenty of people who spend 5,000 dollars on a power cord! which i think is ridiculous. " |
@whitecamaross wc/jay you have a heart of a gold.you have been very sincere , frank and you have always taken constructive criticism the right way. but a few bad actors have taken this too far and done this in bad taste. i can understand how it feels and your response towards it. the overwhelming majority of folks here fully understand , appreciate and cherish your efforts. just ignore them and let's not engage these folks with a reply anymore.not worth it. keep up your great work and continue with your experiments which you do with so much passion and sincerely. you have helped us with your insights a lot and will be always thankful for that.you are a thorough gentleman. |
lhasaguy, It appears that WC goes for attractive opportunities at attractive prices as they come up. Since he loves flagship products, I'm sure he considers the 30.7. He looks for higher Wilson models, but the Alexia 2 is what he found at the moment. I happen to believe that the ML 13A is one of the very top performers in the ML line because of its medium size design, as well as being top value. |
almarg was the go to guy for any audio technical questions in this forum. He posted several times on this thread when we were all stumped and needed questions answered. So sad to hear he is very sick.....makes me realize just how fragile we all are. I will really miss his thoughtful and informative posts. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/update-on-audiogon-member-almarg |
Its been a long journey for WC in his pursuit of his own perfect system which he has shared (and still does) with the Audio world community. There have been a few collisions of views on the way but in all reality that is to be expected in Audio/HiFi forums. I don't think I have ever been on an HiFi/Audio forum where there has not been some disagreements of opinions, whether done in a formal courteous manner or upfront and very personal..! The main thing is the WC's thread, posts and videos are a huge source of interest and enjoyment for majority of us on this thread. |
Do these Gryphon cables even have some technology inside them except being VIP stamped ? Vip, perfect for WC and the level he says he is playing at... At least, Nordost, Shunyata, Cardas, Tara Labs, Audioquest all have explained tech... Please don’t say I’m on the wrong thread. He started it. Come back here WC, they are claiming you back. Specially me. |
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Re inhouse cabling from hi-end makers.. FM Acoustics which I’ve been using in one form or another (Amp/Preamp) since early ‘90s mandate the use of their own cabling ever since. PIT (precision interface technology) interconnects, and Forceline (3,5,7) for speaker cables. They go as so far to fitting special terminals onto their amps such that only their SC using Forceplugs can be used. Even their powercords are all fixed/hardwired oem. No fancy technology, just mass of pure copper to my eyes. And pricewise although costly, nowhere near the absurd pricing of some cable manufacturers nowadays. Soundwise, in context of FMA’s system—hard to beat when use from preamp on down, u can fine tune a little upstream if you so wish to. I’m currently running FMA pre with Accuphase amps.. hence using Siltech Double Crown loom. But when switching to FMA amp, I switch back to FMA’s cabling, saving the source which I’ll still use the TC xlr, plus Ruby DC powercords. So pls stop ridiculing WC preference for using Gryphon’s cabling as a system concept with his Mephisto. As I’ve tried, sure it could be bettered with very” long trial and error—which is both energy and time consuming—not to mention the further capital means of splurging say 100k (or thereabout) for trying top of line loom from some specialty cable makers. |
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WC, I enjoyed your thoughtful discussion of the 8 preamps. If the remote on the Christine weren't such a negative, for sound quality it would probably improve to 4 on your rankings, maybe 3, beating the Ayre. For best value, it seems that the Christine should rank 1, the top. Watch for the upcoming Merrill preamp based on GaN. About the Ayre, there is some confusion about the HF. You find HF outstanding, but then rate the HF about like the ARC ref 10. According to you, the ref 10 inflates images and obscures nuances, which the Ayre does not. But if the overall character of the Ayre is tubey like the ref 10, then I would rank the Christine higher than the Ayre, if the goal is neutrality/transparency. Similarly, if the goal is neutrality/transparency without harshness, the Boulder would rate top, no. 1. The Dag HD is a skillful example of flavored coloring. You prefer it, but the fact is that any coloring reduces transparency and revealing of musical detail. You cannot have both coloring and maximal revelation of natural musical detail at the same time, although the HD is the most skillful compromise. I eagerly await your review of the Pandora preamp. Ultimately, the real fun will be any of the new Boulder packages vs Gryphon package. |
The goal is for me to give my personal opinion.I'm taking the steering wheel from this point on and I rate them as I see them. I go by what I like best. That's it. If anyone disagrees, please order stereophile or absolutely sound and hit the x button at the top right of your browser right now. I rate them as I see them while in my possession. If I like brand x then I like brand x because I feel it tastes how I like it. If I like vodka then I like vodka. Don't burn your energy trying to convince me to drink whiskey. |
WC, I am not disagreeing, but just pointing out some lack of consistency in your assessment of the Ayre. A tubey sounding unit cannot have extended HF at the same time. "Sparkle" is a good way to describe HF because that's what we hear and commonly relate to. Few listeners have test labs to measure HF perceptions, and the lab tests don't tell the story anyway. |
Hey, Audiogon is finally back! Tecno, of course you’re confused. You’re not used to these names and the technical terms used in the higher end products to describe what we hear. Brands that’s you’re more accustomed to like Fisher and Sylvania, people use different terminology to describe their products sound. |
@viber6 i fully agree with you. tuby sound will not have extended HF, it might be warm or soft or rolled off or even smooth in many cases. i like the use of word sparkle which means crisp highs. iam tired of reviewers mentioning highs are sweet or smooth. only in a few cases sweet or smooth means of lack of grainyness or harshness. there are many instruments which can be naturally sharp or grainy . similarly for this warm or warmth.many times music might not be even warm. it's like, instead of running behind natural timber of every instrument in a particular frequency the audio reviewers are going after making or altering music to be warm or sweet or smooth when it is not the case at all many times. i have listened to ayre amps and it has a sweet presentation of HF which means not as crisp. |
Wow ! What a thread ! I started reading it 2 weeks ago and have been captivated ever since. What a cast of characters, it’s like a reality show with returning contestants, viber6, Mr.DB, techno_dude and unwanted messages from our dealers/manufacturers. If a psychiatrist ever gets ahold of these pages new groundwork can be done understanding OCD. Jay, you are doing fantastic work exploring and documenting high end audio. I have come to trust your honest opinions, and love your enthusiasm and excitement. When you buy new gear, you are like a kid with new toys, the way it should be. When you started the Youtube channel i was nervous the honesty would evaporate because of commercial interests, but no, you still say it as you see it. It has been a pleasure to follow your development as a audiophile, you have managed what normally takes 20-30 years in a few years, and you are never afraid of admitting when you where wrong, and always willing to learn. Your patience with contributors and Trolls is truly amazing, maybe because you have understood that they play a vital part in keeping this thread entertaining. Keep up the good work ! |
jetter1,962 posts09-11-2020 4:53pm techno, I am so glad you are so sensitive and at the same time strong and can see through that WC guy and his mini me viper. Guys like us should stick together and we can show them all where it is really at. Keep it up brave warrior. I wrote this back on 9/11, it was suppose to be cynical irony, but now that I reread it it does not come off that way. To be clear, it’s unfortunate that techno believes that he has nothing interesting about himself to share and has settled to be a remora off WC’s thread. More than anything, what has occurred, and not just on this thread, is that a few posters who would benefit from professional guidance have joined our ranks. The great misfortune is that they will take this as some type of criticism, rather than the opportunity to improve their satisfaction with life that it is. |
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Viber6, What WC is politely trying to tell you above is that your criteria for judging equipment that you have never heard is not appreciated, nor is your telling him how his rankings should be altered based on your criteria for judging equipment you have never heard. You attempted to try to get him to change his rankings (saying Christine should be higher than he ranked it). So please take his advice and desist. Don't try to convince him he likes whiskey, or should like whiskey, when he has made it clear he prefers vodka. Good advice. |
Ok now WC lets get back to topic. Of all the preamps you tried, which one would better match and be prestigious enough to match the Gryphon VIP badged cables ? I’m sure my humble Mcintosh C47 would be elevated to new VIP heights with those. Nah, a Shunyata Sigma NR v2 would trounce the Gryphon pc, no contest. |
techno_dude I should probably ignore you, but here it goes. All cables are to some extent equalizers, carrying their sound signature into the connected components, if you know the kind of cables used for voicing the equipment and can duplicate the setup, you are one step closer to hearing what the manufacturer intended. Are Gryphon VIP cables great universal cables ? Probably not. Are they extremely overpriced ? Sure, like almost all high end cables. Are they good cables for connecting Gryphons top amplifiers ? Most likely. Why keep harping on Jay’s decision to try the Gryphon cable on his Gryphon gear. He has already tried other cables. |
Last night’s video was the Magnepan 20.7s with Gryphon Mephisto. There were many things that i liked about it:
What i did not like?
That said, the space that the 20.7 needs to create the incredible the tall,wide & deep presentation of the Alexia 2 will be far greater. Look, it is a big speaker and there is no way around it. You must have the space to let them breathe and transport you into the music and this can complicate things for those of you without a dedicated room or enough space in your living rooms. However, i want to remind you all, i STILL BELIEVE the Magnepan 20.7 is crazy good for the money. It does things that NO OTHER SPEAKER that i have owned can do and they are A TON OF FUN. Can they replace my Alexia 2s? absolutely not, but if i were in a position where i needed to downsize, financial issues, etc and needed to buy something cheaper, i would probably get the 20.7 and use subwoofers with it. I do not believe there is a speaker that can compete with it for the money. This is like the "luxman" of speakers when it comes to bang for the money. As far as aesthetics, i know, i know, it isn’t everyone’s cup of tea and neither is Vivid Audio for some of you or even Wilson Audio. You are not going to make an interior designer happy with the 20.7s in your room, but if you can open your minds and overlook the aesthetics, you won’t be disappointed. If you haven’t checked out the video, please visit my youtube channel: Jay’s Audio Lab My next video will either be the Magnepan Again WITHOUT the Merrill Preamp and just go Dac direct into the Mephisto while keeping the rest the same OR the Martin Logan 13a will make their first appearance. Stay tuned for more. In addition to that, in case you are all wondering, i am still waiting on the Critical Mass stand for my Gryphon Mephisto (they said 3-4 weeks to build it), Gryphon Pandora preamp will hopefully be here by the end of this month and i have purchased 3 more Audioquest Dragon HC powercords to round out my system. |
Hi I haven’t decided yet on my Odin 1 speaker cables. I don’t know if I will go gryphon speaker cables because the Odin is still an Excellent cable. I have another speaker cable in mind that I want to try but I haven’t pulled the trigger. The last video with the magnepan was with the odin 1 speaker cables. I’ll need to try the gryphon speaker cables with the logans and magnepan |
It may be a bit presumptuous to say you don’t believe anything can compete with the 20.7’s for the price when over the past one or two years (ie, covering current generation of speakers) you haven’t owned very many sub15k speakers (at least that’s what I recall). There are a lot of contenders out there in that price space that you haven’t owned. Just sayin’ Perhaps you are supplementing your ownership experience with demo’ing at shows etc. But point taken that you like the 20.7 |
WC, I understand and agree with your 4 pros and 4 cons about the 20.7 with Mephisto. Your present 20.7 system with all the top supporting components is possibly the finest 20.7 system in existence. Few Maggie owners have the quality of supporting components you do, largely because of bad industry-wide marketing that advises people to use cheap and expensive components with cheap and expensive speakers, respectively. However, the company says that some customers do have more expensive components. Magnepan should pay you to accommodate listeners who really want to hear what Maggies can do. Your Alexia 2 system is possibly the finest such system, since top components are also used, but the Mephisto enables true appreciation of the differences between the two speakers. I went back and forth between the latest video with the 20.7 and the last video with the Wilson, using the same music. I think the 20.7 was recorded a little louder than the Wilson, so I adjusted the volumes as I compared. Using my mediocre stock iMac audio, I cannot judge bass, imaging and spatiality, but I can compare the tonal qualities of each system. Yes, the 20.7 has a fine tweeter, but so does the Wilson. What makes the 20.7 my choice is the rest of the range, due to the low mass planar drivers, and the open baffle, boxless design. You can hear how the 20.7 presents voices and instruments most naturally as they are in real life, without the overlay of artificial resonances that come from boxes. The 20.7 shows the beautiful woman with a thin layer of clothing, but the Wilson shows her in a thicker coat so her fine features are obliterated to an extent. Obviously, she appears fuller in the thicker coat. So the fullness comes at the expense of natural detail. You can hear the true tonal character and detail of voices and instruments with the 20.7. Spatiality benefits also as the whole freq range of timbres is fully revealed. This got me to thinking about the many dynamic speakers available using the open baffle (OB) design. Tweak1 writes that he had the Maggie 3.5 but couldn't get the ribbon tweeter to integrate with the rest of the range, to his satisfaction. So he got various Emerald Physics OB models, and got the natural detailed sound of his 3.5 plus more dynamics from the dynamic drivers used. I searched "open baffle speaker" on Agon. On the 1st page, look for the entries, "Spatial Audio M3 Turbo S open baffle speaker review" and "My new review of the Spatial Hologram M4 open baffle speaker." Since I have trouble linking whole articles, I excerpted from the Hologram review some pertinent statements that echo what I have been saying about the supreme importance of tonal quality. "I now understand what posters on speaker forums mean when they say things like, 'Tone is everything. What good are imaging and bass extension if the instruments don’t sound like what they are?' "This is one way in which the Hologram M4’s truly excel. They are masters of tone. Trumpets, saxophones and other wind instruments sound very real. Orchestral strings sound sweet and woody, with the shimmer of the real thing. Voices are as palpable, expressive and human as the best single driver designs that I’ve heard, and that’s really saying something." Read his whole article, which I think is spot-on. He says much of the high cost of excellent speakers with box designs is that of the materials and engineering to make the box sound as boxless as possible, while attempting to get the powerful dynamics that come from box reinforcement. Personally, I believe that no box speaker can compete with a boxless design for absolutely natural lifelike sound The top Wilson Chronosonics are probably the best Wilsons, mainly because they best implement time alignment through their concave driver configuration, but before anyone spends $600K on Chronosonics they should listen to top OB speakers. Spatial sells direct for as low as $2K or less, and their top Lumin line starts at $20K. The Hologram M4 was $1300 at the time of the 2016 post. Clayton Shaw designed the Emerald Physics line before moving on to Spatial. So my latest thinking is that for ultimate natural sound, OB offers the best prospects. Then the question comes down to which driver technology offers the closest simulation of natural voices and instruments. I still believe that lowest mass drivers like planar magnetics, ribbons, and electrostatics offer this. But OB dynamic drivers can now compete with those low mass drivers, and offer more dynamics to boot. The low mass drivers offer maximum purity with less bass. Take your choice. So the 20.7 and ML 13A comparison will be most interesting. |
kps25sc, Perhaps you don't know of my 60 years of musical background and 45 years of audio experience. I have heard many things, but not everything. Same is true of everyone. But I have enough technical background to know that if someone says a minimonitor has tons of bass, it is not necessary to listen for yourself to know this is nonsense, unless you want to listen in a small dog house. Conversely, if a seemingly unbiased listener writes about technically plausible advantages confirmed by listening to a variety of music, his word can be respected. Of course, the ultimate arbiter is your own listening, but many things can be considered or rejected based on intelligent understanding. The field for auditioning has to be narrowed to the most likely candidates. BTW, I know tweak1 who is a good listener with a long life of intelligent listening and professional audio experience. He was the one who opened my mind to the benefits of OB speakers. Do you have an open mind, or would you rather seek satisfaction from criticizing people who know what they are talking about? |
kps, not sure about zip cord. According to viber zip cord is pretty good. Not sure the Sylvania would be able to take advantage of a good cord like that. I own an appliance store so I figure I can cut the power cords off some old appliances we remove from peoples homes and my friend those. Speaking of which, where is our good buddy tecno today. |
viber6 So you know tweak1 personally and have heard his system ? Have you ever owned or heard open baffle speakers or application where the tech has been applied ? I have. As for your experience as an audiophile, your escapades on this thread give some idea of your practical level. You use 40 year old electrostatic speakers where only the high-frequency panels are active, if this is by choice or because of malfunction, you haven’t shared. Driven by a mid-fi low cost amp, connected with zip -cords, with a Rane pro audio equalizer as preamp. Have i missed anything ? I did scroll trough many of your early posts whenever i saw the words “Merrill” Rane” or “Clarity” life is just to short ! |
some general thoughts on the recent equipment vids: I really enjoy the comparison videos, but the "top 5 [x]" ones are based on multiple speakers, amps, and rooms. just don't think its proper or helpful. and you need to bring in Lamm, Vac, or other tube preamps than just ARC. point of reference, i tried a well-known tube preamp on my Rowland and it sounded like crap. on my Ampzillas, makes the best sound I've heard out of my YGs. the Maggies have a ton of promise with great soundstage and coherent bass - but dCS/Gryphon makes them sound thin and wiry like 80s cd. i'm sure you will find a better front end partner. in fact, i much prefer the Coliseum vids to the Mephisto ones - the latter is high speed with no timbre nor decay. can only hope that after 500 hours it fills out. then again, i gave up on detail, resolution, and speed years ago. that's not what i hear with live instruments but hifi guys love them attributes. good luck! can't wait to hear the MLs. |
I find it interesting that some choose to respond to other members speculations and opinions by ridiculing them (something that could be considered Prohibited content in the Audiogon Guidelines). I also find interesting the arrogance of some who choose to put down the equipment level/cost and choices of some members. These are things I try to deter my 10 year old from doing - that is, making fun of others, and demeaning and/or excluding others based upon what they have or don't have. Or, maybe I'm just in the minority on this thinking nowadays. Dave |