We can extrapolate a bit. Of course maybe it is not scientifically perfect but when you take everything in there is value in the comparisons for sure.
No need to be robotic about it.
Most people aren’t selling the farm based on these tests, just refining notions of what they like or don’t. What’s the harm?
For people who are new to the thread I can see how they’d have that reaction. But everyone who has been around awhile gets all of the caveats that come with saying we prefer this or that based on listening to one of the videos.
We just don’t re-post all the caveats each time we express an opinion (thank God!) because that would really make for boring radio |
i can easily argue the opposite by saying: "JAY, that is not fair. You are supposed to use matching components from the same manufacturers in order to understand WHAT the manufacturer was intending to do with the presentation..."..
Some of you need to realize that i could do 500 different shootouts with all the stuff i have here and we would be MORE confused than anything else. I could swap power cords and do a shootout, then use the other xlr and do another shootout, then take the amp off the stand and do another one, then use a shorter xlr and do another one, then use the audio quest 5000 Niagara and then go straight into the outlet. Then use a different speaker cable, different jumper, spikes, no spikes. still points, no still points, ETC, ETC.
PS: THE MERRILL AUDIO AMPS COME WITH BUILT IN FOOTERS FOR VIBRATION CONTROL SO YOU CAN PLACE THEM ON THE FLOOR.....
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I disagree......unless you take each component and really see what it can do....you know nothing. What if the DAG amp was a lot more detailed with a better fuse? What if the Merrill stuff sounded way better on better stands? What if, what if, what if. Any one thing can completely change the sound. The only way to evaluate a component versus another is to A/B one component versus another using all the same stuff....and then tweak each one for best sound (maybe different stuff works best for each one) and then A/B again. Otherwise you are just fooling around.
There is no harm.....just no real knowledge. It’s fun to listen to the videos.....but I know nothing from them......and I do hear the differences, quite clearly. It just does not mean anything....given what I know.
I have absolutely no doubt that if you put the Merrill amps on various stands....you would get various results....no doubt. Floor is stupid, for anything.
You don't need to do a million A/Bs.......just A/B one component at a time and set up the same way. This is what most all professional reviewers do......although sometimes they do listen to systems......but most of the time the serious guys review one component at a time and over several months. This is how you really get to know something. |
Exactly WC. Your call.
Ricevs, there are literally near infinite permutations and combinations they he could run, and reasonable people can disagree on what the right approach is.
Lots of us have strong opinions. Hell if it were up to me the grading categories for the tests would be different but I realize this is WC’s show and he should run it the way he wants to.
I find it incredibly entertaining.
Plus people have short attention spans and if he only changed one little thing many might lose interest. Could be too boring. Not for hardcore devotees but with his YouTube he’s trying to attract a wider audience |
Unfortunately, we all can be misled by youtube videos, although WC has improved their clarity using the new microphone. Since the only people here who have heard a Merrill amp in their systems are WC and I, let's see how WC rates the 118. From my comparisons, I emphatically say that the midrange of the 114 is sweet with "soul." It is not at all dry, by any stretch of the imagination. The Merrill Veritas has much less sweetness. A few listeners described the Veritas as dry, but I wouldn't say that. Their "dry" is my "neutral." I honestly think that most people here would like the Merrills better than any other amp reviewed here, for their power, sweetness + soul, very good detail devoid of brightness. No, I am not a shill for Merrill, since I didn't buy any of them, because my preference is for a leaner, crisper sound for the particular music I mainly listen to. This has nothing to do with money. If the Merrills gave me more of the sound I wanted, I would have bought one of them, since the prices are fair and competitive. |
Viber6,
When you listened to the Merrill......did you try different stands underneath?.....and even more important did you bypass the "soft" feet on the Merrill and try some other expensive super footers? I would never trust a "standard footer" to give me the best sound.....maybe it is the best for that amp and maybe it softens the sound.....and maybe a different footer/shelf system would have given you exactly what you want from the amp.....you never know till you try. Every single thing I do under a component.....completely changes its sound. A friend was using a Sistrum stand underneath his Pass amp to good effect and then got a Minusk isolation stand and it is now a new amp. |
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I agree with ricev's analysis. I have to admit I was shocked at how I thought the Dag was more detailed vs the Gryphon, and speculated that the fancy stand made the difference. I don't have ricev's experience with fuses, but I accept his statements about that. Most important, I agree with ricevs that we shouldn't compare fixed combinations of the same brand of preamp + amp. The reality is that most people have their favorite preamp, and want to know how different amps will change the sound. As long as there are no volume or impedance mismatches between preamp and amp, any preamp will be compatible with any amp discussed here. For example, whether you use the ARC ref 6se or Merrill Christine or Dag HD preamps, you are likely to rank the Merrill, Dag or Gryphon amps the same way with any of these 3 preamps. There is nothing magical about the Merrill preamp/amp package vs Dag preamp/amp package.
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I'm not sure how many times I have to say that the Merrill audio element Amps have vibration control...like built in stillpoints or footers ...they don't need a stand unless you want to be OCD and buy a stand for them because you have cash hanging out of your pocket. |
Ricevs,
No, I listened to the Merrill 114 with its standard feet. I heard that Merrill tried different feet and settled on the Gaia. Perhaps Merrill should try his amps with the fancy Artesania stands that made such a hit here. Maybe Gryphon should reconfigure their amps to be horizontal, so these stands can be used.
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WC has never really been about trying to maximize any component. That is hard for many to understand because most of us do try to do that n our systems.
But he moves way too fast to get bogged down like that. It’s a turnoff for some but I feel like this comes up about every four months as a criticism.
Just roll with it and don’t overthink it.
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Merrill found a footer they like....that does not mean it is totally way cool and no other footer will do. You know nothing about footers and vibration control....that is, for sure. You tried a serious amp stand for the first time lately and it blew your mind. That is all you know. You have to experiment to know something. If you just quote a manufacturer.....well....good luck with that. I know that everything makes a difference.....that I know.....I don’t know much about expensive amp stands because I cannot afford them.....but I have tried lots of stuff under components....and they all give a different sound. By the way, I have the standard IsoAcoustics Orea footers here and they are not my favorite footer (soft sounding). |
See I think, in contrast to Viber and ricevs (if I’m understanding), that just as many people would only consider the matched package of Dag pre+amp or the Merrill combo or some other preamp and amp from the same manufacturer (as opposed to an unmatched pair), and therefore I really like the shootout he did.
As always reasonable people can disagree. But WC not retired and this isn’t his full time job (ie, doesn’t have unlimited time) so he has to make choices on what to present and can’t please everyone |
Correct. I have to try to put something together that makes sense and roll with it. I avoid mix and matching components that don't make sense such as parasound Preamp with momentum Amplifiers etc. |
Looking forward to your 20.7 journey, wcss. Should be a fun one. |
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Actually it seems they snuck in an interior shot of a technic ser1 on that, didn’t notice that, but now makes me want to read up more on that amp. |
WC,
I suspect you are saying that a Parasound preamp doesn't make sense with a Momentum amp because the Parasound is much cheaper than the Momentum. I really wish you would stop saying that a cheap item can't be excellent, and not just for the money. Parasound offers top quality sound in cheap packaging. John Curl of Parasound is a legendary designer. I remember him when he designed the Mark Levinson JC2 preamp (later renamed ML1), which was the top sounding (and expensive) preamp of the late 1970's. Curl has comparable expertise to all the designers of Constellation. You are about to find out how excellent the new Parasound JC1+ is. John Atkinson creamed over it. Although not cheap, it still is fairly reasonably priced. For sound quality, it is probably in the class of the expensive Constellation Centaur and Pass XS you heard. You won't know for sure, since you no longer have the Centaur or Pass for A/B. Also, Irv Gross of Constellation said that the $11K Inspiration has the same circuitry as the more powerful and much more expensive Connie amps, with probably comparable sound quality. Just don't allow your infatuation with pricey stuff to color your objective evaluation of sound quality. As RIAA, grey9hound and I have said, most expensive stuff are poor investments since they quickly lose value.
My Audiostatic speaker of 1980 retailed for only $2000. It still beats any speaker of today for clarity regardless of price. I am willing to spend many times its value for amps to get the highest performance out of it, but so far, none of the expensive amps have given the clarity of my cheap Mytek and Bryston 2.5B SST2. Believe it. |
i said this because i don't think most people would use a Parasound preamp with a Momentum s250. All i was trying to show was that i put together the system in order to hear what the full presentation sounds like.
See, when you mix and match components you can either improve the presentation or go back, but when you use what the manufacturer built (in this case amp and preamp) then you dont have to worry about it.
Of course, i am still going to try a Ref6se with the element 118s to see what happens. Later this week, both systems will do another shootout, but with my 20.7s instead and see what happens. Maybe the results are different? |
WC,
I just watched your video. I didn't know that the Merrill 118 has settings for different sounds--fast, medium, slow, etc. Have you been using it on the fast setting? Is that the default (standard) setting? In any case, it would be interesting to get your evaluation of the different settings.
There was a Momentum HD preamp review a short time ago in Stereophile. He found it to have a juicy, fat sound. The Merrill Christine is probably a leaner, tighter sound. The Christine is an older design, nothing to do with class D. Class D is for power amps only, anyway. So if you have been hearing the Dag package as romantic and relatively fat/juicy compared to the Merrill package, the use of different preamps may explain this. It would be more informative to use a single preamp for both amps. Try Christine + 118 vs Christine + Dag in the next video, which would probably best reveal the true differences between the 118 and Dag amps. In another video, try Dag HD preamp + 118 vs HD + Dag amp. That would answer a lot of questions. Those people who think the Merrill package lacks soul might change their mind if they hear Dag HD + 118. Or, Christine + Dag amp will probably have less soul than Dag HD + Dag amp. When you get the ARC ref 6se, try it with both amps. Since I found the 114 to have plenty of sweetness/soul, I suspect that the Merrill amps have similar overall character to the Dag amps, although possibly still with greater control and extension of bass and HF. |
Yes Jay...in other words quit your day job and spend more time extracting as much info on each piece of equipment you review. You need to buy at least 3-4 different stands, SR black, blue and orange fuses, Stillpoints, Critical Mass and IsoAcoustics footers. Also you definitely need 3 different complete sets of cables. Mix and match every combo of components you have on hand at the time. It's important to us that you do this thing RIGHT! And for God's sake use the same power cords on the amps and preamps you are A/B'ing....even though you know Nordost and Audioquest PC's didn't sound right on the Dag gear so you used Transparent to get the most out of it. It doesn't matter....BE CONSISTENT!
Seriously though...I am happy with the way you have chosen to share your time with us. No need to get anal about everything...leave that to us.
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Agree, ron.
I think it’s funny how some people continually dictate to WC how to run his show. Kinda like the team bat boy telling Mike Trout how to face a MLB pitcher. I’m sure he’s really paying a lot of attention to the unsolicited advice : ) |
No matter how many comparisons are done, there will still be folks who
are not satisfied. No matter how much better you try to make the
testing, there will still be folks who are not satisfied.
I love the way WC is doing videos and inviting us to his journey. No, it's not going to be everyone's way of doing things - that's the point - it's his way, and we're along for the ride.
Yes, I suppose that doing more comparisons = more videos = more views = more money. But, it's also more time, and I'm sure WC needs to have a balance with his time as well.
Dave
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Ron. You’re saying that’s not how I should be doing it? With 3 systems no wonder I’m going broke quick, lol. Theres lots of things Jay COULD do. As mentioned, he would have to make it a full time job in order to do that, yet then the term job would imply that he’s being paid to do this. I’m having fun just watching it unfold as he sees fit. He seems to have his own goals for what he does, and I’m perfectly fine to let it play out as he sees fit. I’ll give my opinions on what I hear, as he has asked for us to post them on his videos. I am glad that we have all for the most part understood that we each have different ideas, and this thread has not delved into mud slinging or bashing like some threads do. It makes it so much more enjoyable we can discuss things civilly and maybe learn something new as Jay has over time, on his dime and time. It’s nice to see people with real enthusiasm for the hobby and not looking to ding someone who has different preferences than their own. |
I also am really excited to see how the JC1+ do.
Dang really wish you still had the DAWs to play them on tho.
Will you get the JC2BP preamp? I think that is Parasound’s top preamp, only like 5k msrp I think. Would probably be the cheapest component you’ve had in years! |
Ron17:
I almost fell out of my chair laughing my ass off with your last post. Lol... What you said is EXACTLY HOW I FEEL but I refuse to say it in those same words because some people have thin skin and get offended quite easily. Thank you for articulating things for me though.
I wish I could do all these shootouts, but a man has to eat and put food on the table. I don’t get a dime from this at all. I don’t get free cables or bookshelf speakers or even free batteries for my remote controls. I’m not asking for any of that but I am being honest with you all.
YouTube has paid zero cents to me and thats fine because it takes time, but until then I am unable to go nuts and buy a warehouse worth of stuff to do shootouts.
I’m not sure if you all have watched the "last dance’ on Netflix about the Chicago bulls where Michael Jordan says he knows he can’t please everyone. He said " if what I do as a basketball player is something you agree with then great but if it isn't then maybe I’m not the right role model for you and you should not be following me".
I couldn’t agree more. |
I am not advocating that WC do an exhaustive bunch of trials. Obviously his time is limited, and I appreciate what he has done so far. But ricevs and I are suggesting a very few well designed trials. All the cable variations would show less differences than preamp/amp differences, so they can be eliminated for the purposes of this amp shootout. Choose any single combination of cables for the amp shootouts. Right now, doing packages of Merrill vs Dag is confusing, and doesn't answer the question of what the 118 sounds like compared to the Dag S250. Ultimately, the 118/Gryphon shootout is most valuable, since they are the top contenders for most of the criteria WC is using. If time is limited, using any single preamp with these amps will be more informative than package trials. I believe the Christine preamp is the most revealing, so that can be the one used in the amp A/B/C. When time permits, the Dag HD and ARC ref 6se can be used.
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The main thing is the whitecamaross wants to share his journey with everyone and goes to places where some of us has never been before... |
Stargazer3,
Good Startrek metaphor. With limited time and money, everyone, even Richard Branson has to make a decision which galaxy to explore. When a good astronomer wants to answer a specific question, he then focuses his attention appropriately.
Dan D'Agostino wrote that at Krell, he didn't like the preamps as much as the amps. He thinks he is doing better now in his new company. I once tried a Krell preamp with my Krell KSA50 amp. This preamp, in tests with another amp, was extraordinarily detailed, but my Krell amp was relatively veiled. The combination of Krell preamp and amp was interesting. But since the Krell preamp and amp had far different character, the true character of the Krell amp could only be discerned by using the same preamp with different amps, not with the package approach WC is doing. |
What this is....is a combo of a three ring circus and a soap opera......entertaining for sure.
"Over in ring #1 is the four time Luxman amp taking another bow.....over in ring #2 is the mystery amp....covered by a Pass labs bag....he he. Don’t you all want to know what is under the bag?......stay tuned for the mindblowing reveal.....over in ring #3 is the Merrill combo back for an encore.......aren’t they sweet. Oh....next in ring # 1 is the return of the Audio Research Ref 6SE (please sing along with me..."Once in never enough with a preamp like YOUooooh").....wait till you hear that.....I know you cannot wait....you cannot....I have built up so much suspense it is killing you....Oh, did I mention the Parasound amps coming in ring #2 real soon.....Oh, next in all three rings is the Big Maggies....well, until next week....when we will have the surprise speaker......ooooo yeah....which one will it be? Stay tuned for the big reveal! In ring #2 is the new $5K amp stand......only to be used on the DAG amp...and in ring #3 are the MIT power cords used only on the Merrills.......and over in all rings is the inferior DAC to the last one with less resolution and cannot drive amps direct so that we can confuse you with less resolution......he he.....this is the conspiracy part of the soap opera......I have you....You cannot stay away....where can you see such a revolving door of equipment.....don’t you salivate.....just looking at all the eye candy?!!!! You must come again soon....tomorrow....today for the latest plot changes that will thrill your soul. Have you wife watch with you. This is only the beginning. Eventually we will have equipment having sex with each other......yes, coming soon here. Audio porn.....for real!"
i could not stop laughing while writing the above. I hope you find it as entertaining as the channel it is on.....Peace Out.
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ricevs,
This thread is WC's journey - his way. Just a suggestion - perhaps you should look to other forum threads that might better fit what you want, because this thread does not seem like a good fit for you.
Dave
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frankly, did not feel that was funny at all. sorry
agree with post above
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ricevs
It is rather sad that an adult would take the time to spew such mindless drivel and proclaim that it is amusing. I hope that "Peace Out" signals a permanent exit. |
This (all life) is pure entertainment.....please entertain yourself. You can do this. You are in charge of your happiness. Enjoy and love yourself...every second...and of course, include everyone in your joy......but most everything is humorous.....it really is. I crack myself up all the time. Infinite eternal joy is what all this REALLY IS........channel #Love is all .....on your radio.
This thread is not exclusive.....as is all life. We are all connected. This channel is as much mine as yours and includes all 8 billion of us. All our truths are real. We can all state our truth.....we can all dance in the sacred dance...because we already are.
I do find this thread entertaining......but I feel called to tell the truth about what I experience. I hope you do the same.
Sorry guys, there is no "final exit" as we are all eternal. There is no end. Get used to it. People think differently than you and find things funny whereas you might find them SERIOUS. ENJOY every second. It is free. |
@ricevs
I think you probably made a fool out of yourself with your latest posts. Not sure if you are not doing fine or what but that was waaaay out there. I think the exit button should be handy for you. I don’t really tear anyone up in here but your last few posts have been a bit goofy. I certainly understand if others here are starting to ask for you to begin your exit. Don’t be offended but try to understand what others are trying to tell you. I am posting this to reinforce their sentiments towards you. There was a time when Viber took a ton of heat from people here and he understood it and turned it down a notch and nothing was said to him again. Don’t be angry if you get pushed out of here.
There has been a tight group of contributors on this thread that make my life easier and who only come out when someone is really out of line. They like what WE all have built here. They don’t want it to go to waste because someone decided to poop here almost daily. |
Infinite eternal Kaleidoscopic dance of love and joy.......that is what we are. That is what I call forth more and more, every day. What do you call forth? You might think that is goofy. I find it beautiful. It never ends....Enjoy.
I am never offended by the thoughts that man has.....as stated by EST...years ago: "the mind is a make wrong machine". I don’t make you wrong (you are incredibly beautiful, as we all are).....just point out the flaws in the lack of knowledge. Every thing is perfect....just the way it is....it will always be that way. Have fun.
Way out there...... is right here and now. Infinite bliss right this very minute awaits your saying it is so. You control your reality......call it and step into it....whatever pleases you.
Do you think you create your reality moment to moment?.....you do....you are that powerful. However, you can either let it keep recreating itself from the unconscious reactive mind stuff (you know, your programming) or you can consciously create your life anew each second. This is the choice you have....either be a robot or learn how to be totally alive in the infinite dance....free of the past....free of judgements.....free of fear......in the joy of this moment.
I will now return you to your scheduled program...he he......this has been an message provided by the "Life is amazing every second" foundation. |
This is why I NEVER eat any kind of mushroom. |
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WC, you mentioned before XS300 was in another 'stratosphere' over M900U. But I read in your prior posts you ranked the M900U above the XS150. Just want to confirm then, that the m900u fits between the XS150 and XS300 for you?
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Did I speak too soon about everyone behaving themself on this thread? Rita, it does seem like a shroom event for sure, lol. Also the sound alike we should have a 60s style lovefest, get naked and pass around the reality expanders. If nothing is exclusive and we are all connected, I’d like to see if I could get access to some bank accounts so I can keep pace with jays journey. You guys help out enough and I’ll keep them all, quit my job, and do any shootout you’d like. |
speedbump6,
Was it you or someone else (I forgot) who recently ordered the Sim 860 V2? Let's hear the findings. |
Someone has gone off his meds. I hope he doesn’t hurt himself. |
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Alright men,
Let's stay on topic.
I am going to upload a video of the magnepan 20.7 with gryphon, dag hd preamp and nordost Odin 1 powercord on the gryphon. Wireworld Platinum 8 Speaker cables. You will decide HOW you like the speakers better: tweeter inside or outside. I can't wait to hear your comments ! |
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video is rotated 90º
at 10:00 it goes to being correct |
Yes I said it in the description. I caught it when it was almost uploaded and it takes a lot of time to redo it so I let it slide. |
Video getting re-uploaded
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