@whitecamaross
WC, thank you so much for all your efforts and hard work. wow this is a legendary thread you have been running for so many years and you are giving us frank unadulterated end user view of the components.indeed very rare and valuable.
on a slightly different note if i may ask you. as of now, as per you, what are your top/best 5 pure analog only integrated amp say from a price range of 9k to 15k USD that you know of or tried.would be great if you can rank it from your perspective. |
Next you should get the MSB and permanently retire the dCS :)
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Very interesting WC. As you know, I am a big believer in less is better regarding hi end audio.
Never forget that the dcS dac is a reference ultra high end piece, with a very good preamp section build into it. Modern audio is undeniably going in that direction... Preamps with dac modules included, or dacs with preamp section included. This is why I own the C47 McIntosh preamp ( coupled to a Luxman M900u ). One piece replaced two , got rid of the extra powercord and set of interconnects. And the modern dac I got rid off was seriously no joke at 6k usd msrp.
AND also, market will keep developing better all in one integrateds. But thats for another subject.
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Well, if one has a turntable, that's a reason why someone would need a preamp. And many dacs, such as my esoteric k01x, do not have a volume. Many do, but are definitely not at the level of your dcs Vivaldi.
So it's a mixed bag, but I see your point. |
So as i sit here tonight listening to the DCS VIVALDI connected to my luxman 900 u amp i realize that at this level there is a HUUUUUUUUUGE law of diminishing returns. I can HONESTLY SAY that having a DCS Vivaldi and using it as a preamp pretty much puts in your hands a dac that beats probably 60-70% of the preamps out in the market today and the 30% of the preamps that can beat this dac probably cost as much if not more than this dac. Right now, and although it is a preliminary feeling, i could easy sell the Ayre Preamp RIGHT NOW and any other preamp i have owned and use that money instead to buy the clock for the vivaldi and more AES, BNC cables for the dac to elevate it.
Here is what i have gathered after living with the DCS Vivaldi:
1.A WELL DESIGNED DAC is probably able to do a 2 men job: Dac & Preamp AS LONG AS YOU LISTEN within reasonable volume levels
2. If you need horsepower, big volume levels, your room is huge and needs to spread a ton of air in order to fill it, no dac will EVER best a well designed preamp when it comes to this.
In short, let’s say you have 30k to spend and you are thinking this:
1. 30k DAC
2. 15K PREAMP 15K DAC
3. 20K PREAMP AND 10 DAC
If you have a small room, don’t listen at pretty big volume levels, go with option #1 10 times out of 10.
If you have a relatively large room, big speakers, sit back pretty far, have other sources that you need to connect such as a turntable, etc then go for option #2 or #3.
I FINALLY ACCEPT TODAY that no preamp, HAS EVER bested a dac when it comes to the purity and detail at low level listening. EVER, EVER EVER and if that preamp exists, i have not met it and to be TOTALLY honest, WHY would i spend another 20,30, 40k to hear THE SAME THING that i am already getting at low volume levels? it is stupid. Save your money people.
In short, and the take away from this should be that your volume level and room determine what works best as a preamp.
I almost spent a pretty penny by buying some top end xlr cables to go from my dac into the Ayre and then use my odin xlr from the ayre into the amp, but i hit the brakes instead because i want to first convince myself that a preamp is indeed what i need to have here. Don’t be surprised if i end up moving forward with just a Dac and completely killing the idea of a preamp for me, my room and listening habits as of late.
Yes, i still own the Ref6SE, Luxman 900u preamp and now the Ayre KXR TWENTY so i have more than enough to make a decision when it comes to owning a preamp. If i decide not to, you all can be sure that i did ENOUGH testing and listening of my own that i just don’t need a preamp anymore. Granted, i have serious cables and a supporting cast for this dac that really makes it work that much better, but i need to feel like having all this money tied up in a preamp is indeed worth it because i am getting something i can not live without and this will be the exercise i need to endure over the next few weeks.
This Ayre Preamp will be the final nail in the coffin for me. If this preamp STILL does not convince me to keep it for at least a few months then i will sell all my preamps and close the "preamp" conversation for me. Yes i will still try a preamp here and there because i want to try whatever new preamps come out and nothin else. Remember, for me the investment is rather large and if a preamp CAN’T do MORE than what my dac already does then that is redundant for me and i rather put this money on something else like a second pair of speakers, etc. |
I understand how thezaks liked the sound of the Cardas when he listened to that first. Although I enjoy the greater purity of the music and get closer to the music with the Odin, especially in the background instruments with their HF overtones, I believe that the system’s overall purity is due to bypassing the preamp. When the Ayre preamp is broken in enough, I hope you do a video with and without the Ayre. You could use the Cardas straight from the DCS into the amp, and get more purity than if you used Odins from the DCS into the Ayre, and then into the amp. For purity, there is nothing as important as bypassing the preamp, assuming for that particular music such as this one in your video, you have plenty of volume.
For those who want the dynamics and bloom that a preamp adds, I will ask you to think about comparing the purity and delicate taste of freshly picked corn to several days later. There is no contest, and everyone would agree that fresh brings out the max in range and delicacy of flavors. For ultimate listening pleasure, think of the purity of the music as you would think of the purity of the taste of fresh food.
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whitecamaross
2nd Note-
Ayre incorporates the technology from your pre-amp into the company's Integrated amp (AX-5 Twenty). It is superb at its price-point.
Happy Listening!
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techno__dude:
I would definitely agree with your statements about service to music and technology for those two components. It will be interesting to see if WC comes to the same conclusions, after spending time with both. Some will prefer one flavor and others will prefer the other. I guess we’ll get to have somewhat of an opinion too, after we watch the video.
WC:
I watched the XLR comparison video. It’s interesting when you start with the Odin and then go to the Cardas - it almost seems muffled at first when going to the Cardas. So, I waited a while and then went back to your video and listened to the Cardas first, and then I listened to the Odin. While I can still tell the differences, this time I found that I kind of didn’t like some of the things the Odin did vs the Cardas. I can now understand why the Cardas would be preferred by some.
Dave
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whitecamaross - I forgot to mention that I very much like the Audio Research house sound: huge soundstage, silky lifelike mids, textured bass, airy highs.
I actually love the sound I get now with my GS150. The reason I am even making this change is to get a little deeper bass, a little more detail without getting analytical sounding, and definitely to reduce the heat in the room. The GS150 is like having a heater in my room.
jbrrp1 - That's great to hear! very promising. I don't want "too much" detail in my system, I like a tubey sound, but not too veiled. That's why I prefer Audio Research in general, I do love their house sound and I don't want the Luxman to detract from that, but support and enhance it in the lows. |
@2fastdriving I have the ARC Anniversary 40 working with the Luxman M900u in my system, and I love the combo. They are feeding TAD CR-1's, which are pretty finicky. The ARC pre added the right amount of tube with the amazing Luxman amp. I'm guessing that the Ref6 will mate well, too.
I also have the C900u pre, and it is clearly just an outstanding preamp, as well, but not the right flavor for my speakers. Too much of a good thing in combo (the TAD's need some pull back from detail, IME). Now, the Luxman combo was so good together that it did get me pondering for awhile whether I should be looking for other speakers.... I just decided that the speaker change was too big of a "zig" for me and my room and all of that. |
Awesome, I'm subscribed to your channel already! Thank you sir. |
This could be a great question that i can answer on my next video. Look me up on Youtube. Luxman C900U vs Ayre KXR TWENTY shootout is happening this week. |
whitecamaross,
I have been reading your thread and watching your videos with great interest.
I have Alexia one's with all-esoteric digital and Audio Research Ref6 (soon to be SE) and GS150. I just purchased a luxman M-900u based partially on your enthusiastic reviews.
I noticed you have had a Ref 6 and SE in the past, but went back to the Luxman preamp to pair with the power amp.
Can you briefly tell me, how do you think I'll like the switch from GS150 to M-900u, and how well do you think the Ref6 pairs with it? Even if the Luxman pairs better, what are the differences. I could perhaps move to the Luxman in the future but would prefer to keep my Ref6 for a while if I'm going through with the upgrade. Plus I just love ARC.
Thank you! |
whitecamaross
Good to see the Ayre in your system.
Nice video on Cardas v. Nordost.
Happy Listening!
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I listened to the Ayre KXR TWENTY some more last night and i can say this is THE VERY FIRST preamplifier that has EASILY shown me the difference in sound quality between streaming (TIDAL, QOBUZ) and local files (flac, dsd, etc). i will expand on this later. |
Techno-dude.
"
Luxman is technology to the service of music.
Ayre is music to the service of technology."
What does this statement mean?
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The difference between Ayre and Luxman:
Luxman is technology to the service of music.
Ayre is music to the service of technology.
Looking forward to learn the differences between those two preamps in WC’s system. |
Whitecamaross,
I am glad that you are trying the Ayre KXR 20 preamp. I had suggested that you should try it a while back. I own this preamp and it is amazing. It is also John Atkinson’s (stereophile) all time favorite preamp.
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Ayre KXR TWENTY Preamp with Luxman 900U amp is AMAZING. I might be detecting just a tad more brightness than i’d like, but it could be that it just needs to settle in for a few days. More to come on this amazing preamplifier. Could it be my top Solid State preamp of all time?
We will have to find out :)
PS. The response to my Cardas vs Odin 1 xlr has been incredible and i just uploaded it. Do you all see HOW you can actually hear a difference with just ONE SINGLE cable being swapped out? |
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Yeah sure, as if those cables are not enough expensive to begin with..... |
Well thats good news then.
Personally, I would still not want to be caught with cables and take a hard hit if they never reopen. But thats just me. If the cables in question are actually highly regarded and or sought after, and the company goes out of business, they might actually go up in value. |
WC,
For power cords, did you compare AQ Hurricane HC to Nordost Odin 1, with amplifiers or with Denali or Niagara 5000 power conditioners? It seems easier to find used power cords with 15A connectors. Getting 15A to 20A adaptors could work, but maybe introduce compromises.
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Well thats good news then.
Personally, I would still not want to be caught with cables and take a hard hit if they never reopen. But thats just me. |
Nope...call their number tomorrow...they are 10 min away from my house ... |
Are you sure WireWorld is not closed definitely ? My sources say yes. |
Guys,
Audio Research, McIntosh, and JVC also closed doors in April.... Wireworld wasn’t the only brand that closed temporarily...
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I would not touch that brand with a 10 feet stick. When they say it’s closed, the gear resale value usually takes a dive.
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I just received a quote on Wireworld last week. The dealer told me they were open again. |
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebookWireworld is now closed...has been for about 1 month It is not completely closed. One of my dealers can have new WW product built and shipped to you.
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Most likely the perceived air in Wireworld cables is due to attention to the inherent directionality of wire. Whereas Cardas apparently overlooks it. There, that wasn’t so hard was it?
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People out of work wondering how they will pay their mortgages or rent or if they will be out on the street. Hoping they can feed their families.
I hope they and many others can reopen soon.
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Wireworld has died.
Long live Shunyata. 😆
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Wireworld is now closed...has been for about 1 month |
The general feeling is cardas is meatier but lacks the air of the Wireworld.... You all wonder what Odin 1 xlr and Wireworld Platinum 8 Speaker cables sound like ? ... :) |
Wireworld cable sounding better, more right somehow, just to me too.
Michélle |
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WC you are so right it's all about your own preferences. I for one want musicality over anything if it ain't musical I can't get involved and to me there's no SOUL to the music. I stated it way back when you were listening to the Audiomica cables I thought they sounded so musical in your system it was eery. I've switched from Cardas to Audiomica and now can listen for hours and hours and hours. Does it have the tightest bottom end? Who cares! Does it have the most extended top end? Who cares! It just makes my foot tap to the beat of the music and get lost into another dimension that puts a smile on my face. Enjoy your journey I still look forward to your posts. |
I preferred Cardas to Wireworld. Thought the bass through Cardas sounded more substantial and also tighter.
Would have to listen some more to see if I prefer WW to ????
Again, that Luxman and Wilson combo is really nice. |
it is all about preferences... long listening sessions regardless of the volume level. Nobody is wrong or right for listening at low, moderate or loud volume levels because that becomes preference. I personally listen at all volume levels so finding a balance is key for me.
Right now, about 3/4 of the comments on my youtube channel are leaning towards the wireworld presentation. It seems to be more balanced for many people. Which one do you all like? |
WC,
Your choice would be easy once you accept the fact that very loud listening distorts the music. Even most live, unamplified music is at natural modest volume levels. All of the music on your videos is most lifelike at modest SPL's. But when certain pieces are too loud, it is unpleasant. In my first row seat at a live, unamplified concert, I cringe briefly when it is too loud, but then love the crispness the other 99% of the time at the low to moderate SPL's. The more accurate component at moderate SPL's will give more excitement than blasting the whipped cream/veiled type of sound.
As I wrote above, getting the most natural detail and resolution serves the appreciation of all the subtleties of the music, which is EMOTIONALLY rewarding.
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Really enjoyed your last two videos WC and love the 3rd teaser. I hear my preference but I don’t think holding my iphone to my right ear does it justice ;). Really amazing you are also then getting to do the combo described above. Running Odin myself I can understand how going into the high 80db-c avg and above could make me want to switch out a couple cables (for me this would be less than 5% of the time). I also have experimented w the cardas clear beyond pc. Not sure your comparable low/mid/high volume levels though. I do hope folks keep posting their thoughts on the thread here. It is such a great community and obviously all are welcome. I understand why switching over most/all commentary ultimately to utube may be beneficial. Sounds like some regular contributors have already migrated over. will miss their contributions. Keep enjoying the music! |
12:23am and i am in such a battle right now. The luxman 900u preamp with odin 1 coming from the dac and silver 8 wireworld xlr from the preamp into the gryphon along with wireworld platinum 8 speaker cables sounds INSANE. Fast, clean, clear, crystalline, big, detailed, dynamic as HELL, but it does not have "soul". It just gives you the facts, without any sugar coating.
I then proceed to swap out the odin 1 xlr and replace it with the cardas clear beyond and i hear fullness, smoothness, musicality and SOUL... BIG SOUL in the music, but lacks the dynamics, ultra resolution of the odin 1. It is SUCH A DIFFICULT choice to be honest. Some could argue that "the facts" are what they want and others could argue "musical and emotion" is what they want and NEITHER ONE is wrong. Neither camp is really wrong because it is a matter of taste. I am so blessed to be able to have both here, but i just CAN NOT pick one over the other. I JUST CAN'T guys. If i am in the mood to listen at low-mid levels, the odin 1 xlr is just the ticket to indulge in a massive amount of detail and resolution, but if i want to just floor the gas pedal, cardas just takes you there as smooth as possible without making you turn it down, but you lose the feeling of the road (speed bumps, pot holes, etc are all absorbed and vanish). |
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Can't do anything with MIT. I won't go into detail as to why but let's just say their practices aren't extremely friendly. |
+2 on adding MIT to the cable shootout or down the road if it would work |
I have a LOT of experience with MIT cables - like 20 plus years. Man, I'm old :-(
Anyhow - to me, they sound natural. One has to hear live music to make that comparison. With a high quality system, you can hear the artist's performance and the venue it was performed in.
And - no, I am not associated with MIT in any way other then being a consumer.
I did find a cable I like better, and became a dealer. Honestly - after trying to help people get their system properly set up (including room treatments) and performing to it's best potential, I gave up trying. Most of us have no idea how many people have pretty decent equipment that is poorly set up. How in heck will they determine any component's performance? Many dealers included!
Last time I invited a friend over - he was in disbelief how our system sounded. I couldn't make the investment we made without getting lifelike performance. Just my 2 cents. |
Unfortunately I have not. |
@whitecamaross Have you had any experience with MIT speaker cables or Transparent? My WA dealer also carries MIT and recommends them for Sashas. I wanted to try Transparent first, but according to the dealer the MIT technology is far superior:)
Thanks, Aziz.
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Thanks for your recommendation that for clarity, go for the AQ Niagara 5000 plus Hurricane power cord feeding it.
"Emotion" means many things to different people. In my case, when I hear more clarity, that leads to a better appreciation of the intricacies of the music I love. Greater love and appreciation=emotion. Also, more snap/sizzle (without excessive volume) = more excitement, that type of emotion.
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