My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
I appreciate your suggestions. As I've found on Tidal, there are many Stravinsky - Rite of Spring offerings, but couldn't find the particular conductor you noted. Still, I'll have a look round and see if I can't find all the tracks for Part 1 (I looked on Wikipedia to find out the track names). I've read others frustration with Tidal in reference to classical and I'm a bit frustrated too. Though I have no real knowledge of the genre, maybe this will get me to dip a toe in.
@viber6
I appreciate your two recommendations as well. Hopefully at least one of these works will move me and pull me in.
@whitecamaross
WC, sorry for the detour. Back to your thread now.
Thats correct. I did try to buy an external microphone for the phone which cost me like 400 dollars and that was a waste. I returned it. As I said before, I don't have an issue buying microphones but that will happen when I have enough subscribers that I can at least monetize and offset the cost of any recording equipment. I believe I need to have around 2,000 subscribers to qualify to monetize and I am at around 800 subscribers. I think by the end of the year I should be at around 2000.
WC, Much to my surprise, I find that your present recording setup is good enough to reveal differences between components, so keep doing what you are doing.
Yeah, it’s interesting. For sure it is possible to hear differences between the presentations (most of the time - couple I couldn’t, forget which ones). This true even when I am just listening on phone speakers. When I am more serious about it I listen thru nice headphones from macbook (which still is pretty basic).
I guess the big question is (and I don’t know answer), are the differences that we hear and the preferences we develop as a result correlative to what we would pick if we were in the room?
I guess I’d think they would be, right?
To say otherwise, you’d have to conclude that what we decide given the current arrangement would either have to be directly opposite what we’d decide with better playback options, that it’d be not directly opposite but at least contrary to some degree, or possibly that there is no correlation at all (random). Each of these seem less likely than that there would be at least some positive correlation, perhaps even a fairly strong positive correlation.
No?
Just so no confusion, I want to be clear I am not suggesting it is as good as being in the room. Don’t need to have that argument. It’s a matter of convenience. Better question is: is there value to these comparisons with recording and playback limitations? I say yes. And more than just entertainment value. I think some comparative value for making assessments. Note I said, "SOME." Starting point, if you will.
For newbie listeners to classical music, I would start with the Rossini William Tell Overture which is only 10 min. The last section is the famous Lone Ranger. The most exciting recording I have heard is the 1953 mono by the NBC Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Arturo Toscanini. In that recording, the crescendos (fast build of dynamics) in percussion (including tympani--drums) and the crackle of the brass are most thrilling. Even though it is mono, the close perspective suits this music and interpretation.
Next, try the 1st movement (section) of the Beethoven 5th Symphony.
For solo piano, the last movement of the Beethoven Moonlight Sonata. The old recording by pianist Vladimir Horowitz, is thrilling because of its precision and sudden dynamic bursts.
Jascha Heifetz was the most exciting violinist who ever lived. His recordings started around 1920, but he made many excellent sounding recordings from 1955 to 1972. When you love a particular artist, you can listen to any of his recordings and get to know more music in that way.
I like youtube for exposure to similar pieces on the right side, so this is a great way for you to quickly expand your experience.
Omg....from a dead cold start, 3 seconds of playtime, the ansuz signalz c2 xlr is impressive...HUUUUUUUGE SOUNDSTAGE. My Valhalla 2 xlr will need to sweat hard as hell to best this xlr. I’m HIGHLY impressed right out of the gate. Zero break in and it is EASILY one of the best xlr I have ever owned. EASILY. The Valhalla 2 vs ansuz MUST HAPPEN !
"The Valhalla 2 vs ansuz MUST HAPPEN ! " Looks like the Audience is out :-) Did I miss it - did we have the reveal yet for the Valhalla 2 vs the Audience video? Dave
I sense a video reveal coming...will be interested if you have any further thoughts on O1 vs V2 xlrs now that you have lived w them for longer. Very interesting first impressions on the Ansuz...
Glad to inspire you. The Beethoven Moonlight Sonata starts with a slow, contemplative simple idea. The last section is fast and exciting, so this famous well-loved piece gives you everything. Feel free to message me, so I can recommend more pieces once I see what you like. Guido is a music scholar, so he likes the complex pieces like the Rite of Spring, whereas I go for the simpler, romantic pieces that I believe would also be most accessible to the newbie.
Besides the Ansuz, you really need to try the ICs, speaker cables and PCs from Inakustik. Their top-flight products are extraordinary. Problem: not that easy to come by in the U.S.
Well, I wanted to keep things real with you all on the accuphase E800 Integrated. The upcoming video was a first for me by trying to be as subtle as possible when it comes to accuphase. I recommend you all to watch it and understand a few things. I hope you enjoy
while the video uploads, i just checked all my videos on youtube and did you know that NONE OF MY VIDEOS where i have played music can be monetized? yes.... i get zero dollars if i were eligible to get paid today for all videos where i played music which means pretty much all my shootouts... The only videos where i could make a few dollars are those where i just simply talk with no music playing. The copyright owners are the one that get credited for all the views of my videos... so do you all now see WHY most bloggers on youtube don’t play any copyrighted songs? well...this means i will need to start talking about products more often and do shootouts here and there. Will need to change what i have been doing.
WC, I finally received my DAW in Quartz about a week ago:). It's amazing how well it plays with my SET amp. I know it shouldn't, but it does! Anyway, now starts a quest for that perfect dream amplifier. If you were in my shoes, what would be the 3 amplifiers you would try first? Budgetwise I would like to keep it below $30k.
Sad and sorry to hear that there is no compensation for your time and effort when you use music for your equipment comparison. I listen to your shootouts on my desktop with headsets and I can hear the difference in the components, and of course, it would not be possible without the music. BTW, I used one of your shootouts to make a purchase. As a former recording musician, I understand the artist and label companies point. But on the other hand, you are giving exposure to these individuals music, to ears it never would have fallen upon. I've bought music that you've played because I like what I heard and like to support the arts, even thought I'm no longer in it professionally. Yes, I still buy cd's I like, as well as paying into Amazon Music, Tidal, and Qobuz. I know you love what you're doing and I for one appreciate your videos. You've brought to light and put on the radar a lot of good products and music as well, and I'd like to thank you for what you are doing. I hope that the music industry will realize that, in the case of these type of videos, one hand washes the other. And in a sense, they're biting the hands that feed them. It is after all, it is the equipment you and other reviewers like you are testing/showcasing, which is how their music is being heard. Without the equipment, there is less music. Sorry, I just realized that I'm preaching to the choir. But hopefully, someone will see that, in some places, the copyright laws do more harm than good.
that is unfortunate as well, but it is what it is. What i will say is that my future videos will now become more of a 2 part series where one will be the actual shootout and the second part will be about my thoughts and impressions.
As far as the Accuphase E800, i wanted to say that i was VERY VERY reluctant to posting the video, but i wanted to come out and just put it out there. I also wanted to show that i CAN have a product IN MY HANDS and try to be as honest as possible about its performance even though i STILL have to sell it. I did not care to put it out there even if it ends up backfiring on me when i list it. I don't know of MANY reviewers who would talk REAL FACTS about a product even if they are not great facts and knowing that it might impact the resell value down the road. That said, i am ok with it because i hope this can shine "some light" on you all so you can understand I GAIN NOTHING - NADA - ZERO from doing this. It is actually quite the opposite often times. Who owns a product and tells it like it is even if it means they will have a harder time selling it after ? i don't know many who do... just my .02cts
WC, I agree that the sound is really mediocre. Dark, bass muddy, vocal veiled, no air. On your other videos with this music, the sound is exciting and wonderful. I am wondering if the amp is defective. But then it would cost money to send it back to the factory and get another unit to answer the question.
A markup from $4K to $10K--is this typical of most foreign products? That is certainly a good reason to stay away from foreign products. Many companies use cheap foreign labor for parts or subassembly, with the final product originating from the US--that's OK.
In order to keep your music comparisons coming, I suggest keeping the commentary minimal on them just to mention cables, with written captions as #1,2,3, or the component name. Just present a 2-4 min selection. With 2 or 3 choices, the video would be only 4-6-12 min long. Then make a separate video with your comments on the sound. This way you could get paid for your comments only. We would have to go back to the music video again, but that's life, and you certainly should be paid for your efforts, which we all appreciate.
BTW, what are the identities of the shootout between the Audience front row and Valhalla 2? Do a quick video on that, so you will get paid. I guess you might have less commentary on this thread, and more on the videos.
Jay, a quick way to monetize is to get yourself on Patreon. Subscribers can then chose different levels of support. In many cases the patreon offers something extra depending on the level of support. Many will list the Patreon supporters, some offer earlier views of videos, or additional video with more details, etc.
Yeah, that is unfortunate on the youtube thing. They should have some blended solution. I understand the concept of rewarding the artists, as they created the music, but you are also providing content and facilitating by providing the videos (ie, you are value added as well as the music, moreso in fact), so it seems that there should be some blended solution with the compensation.
Alas, I guess that does explain why this was breaking new ground, in an unfortunate sort of way.
Your idea about the two-part video just separating the music from the content seems like the perfect solution.
Luxman L-590AXii actually only rated at 30W class A, 8 ohm. Really conservative, and still drove your DAWs easily. Just a correction that Lux rated 30W, not 50W as mentioned in video.
Maybe this Accuphase bumps the ARC M160’s off the bottom-5 list, haha?
Awesome video by the way. Really cool that you call the balls and strikes as you see them regarding the Accuphase. Pretty awesome.
To those in past who complained that WC only mentions a product flaws after he sells it, this video is a good counterexample.
To those in past who also said once something is already sold that his opinion changes, this also a counterexample -- he praised the Luxman L-590axii when he had it (named it top 3 all time for money and best thing under $12k in response to my question, int or separate that he’s owned) but he is praising it even more in this video, even though it is already sold. We get more detail regarding WC’s opinion on the Lux 590 in this video than we did even in the one video where WC really talked about it previously. Much appreciated.
@kren.. thank you for your comment above. This video should put a different perspective (hopefully positive) in the minds of many of you. I could have gone more in depth, but to be sincere i think this video did 2 things:
1. Gave you my overall feeling about the E800 2. Showed you that i don’t have to be dishonest about something even if it might bite me in the @ss when i have to sell the item
Lastly, my channel will continue to go through an evolution process that will hopefully get better and better with time. I am not a professional reviewer, Rome was not built in a day, but give me enough time, funds, resources and i can see my channel going into a whole new level over time. I am very passionate about this and sharing this with you (with the limited time i have) is all i sincerely care about. If you dig what i do, then great. If you don't then that is ok too (i can't make everyone happy and neither can you).
Several things can attribute to a bad sound on the WC video related to Accupahse E-800. There may be no synergy between components; I was told that E-800 need at least 200-300 hours of burning before sounding its best. Anyway next week I’m going to get E-800 delivered and I will compare it with my luxman 590 axii, which (I totally agree with WC) is outstanding integrated and bettered pass int-250 in my system. My current speakers are Sonus Faber Amator iii, but I probably replace them with coming out in September Marten Parker Trio.
WC - thanks for taking the high road regarding your evaluation of the E-800. Having personal experience with this integrated, it left me cold. There was much hype about the E-800 being so much better than the E-650.
There are those who are married to the Accuphase sound, so for them, it might be a good match but for me, it ended up falling way short of Luxman performance.
I hope it doesn’t bite you and it shouldn’t, because people should understand that it is just your opinion, and everything is so subjective.
There are probably Accuphase fans who will salivate at getting the chance to get this at a good price.
As is extremely clear by the feedback people post, everyone has different tastes. Some of our tastes align with yours (I’m lucky because you and I seem to like the same things, so your reviews are really on point for me), but others prefer different aspects (Viber is an example - he has strong feelings as to what he likes which is fine, just different from yours).
But the great thing is that for people who have followed you in the thread and now on the videos, they can determine for themselves where they personally stand with preferences relative to you (e.g., if their preferences for sound quality are different from yours), and still get great information from your reviews by just making their personal correction to implement their own preferences onto yours and still get extremely meaningful info relevant to future purchases.
The most important thing is that you remain consistent, calling the balls and strikes as you see them.
It’s like an umpire in baseball. As long as the umpire keeps the strike zone the same all the time, even if one would quibble around the margins as to whether the strike zone would align perfectly with one’s own version of the strike zone, that is all that can be asked for from the umpire. Consistency. And I think that is what we get from your content, IMO.
Everyone has preferences, that is unavoidable. You are transparent with yours (even mentioning some of them in this video - soundstage, bass, sufficient to drive to high volumes unimpeded, etc.) and that really even can further lay out for people what to expect from you and let them know, if they need to, how to take your comments and adjust them to fit their preferences if their preferences differ from yours.
I usually set my clock based on the weekly WC Friday-night video. This Thursday morning video has me nervous that we may not get a Friday night video as we almost always do. : )
WC, "well...this means i will need to start talking about products more often
and do shootouts here and there. Will need to change what i have been
doing." I guess if a big reason for your videos is to make money, then this makes sense. Otherwise, if not, then I wouldn't think that you would need to make a change unless you wanted to make a change. Dave
Dave, If I can monetize, then why not ? At the end of the day I have to take time away from my family, drive long distances, put videos together. Etc. It would be nice to offset some of this.
Ok, so now do I contact a mod about why a post was removed. Nothing negative about anyone at all, so I’m confused and cannot find a method to ask the question.
I am filming tomorrow’s video as we speak. Ansuz signalz c2 vs Valhalla 2. Dac is being connected directly into the gryphon colloseum. Is anyone nervous ? Is this going to be yet ANOTHER blow for a well known cable manufacturer? Tomorrow night we will know :).
WC, Looking forward to that comparison! I'm curious about the Ansuz. By the way, what happened to the Audience comparison - did we ever find out which was which (maybe I missed it).
Regarding the opportunity to monetize - no issue with that at all - I cheer you on for that. I was just thinking (please forgive my ignorance here) that it wasn't enough money to make much of a difference. Dave
I've been close to selling my gryphon about 3 times. Each time I think I'm done with it, I push the high bias button, let it cook for 20 min and when I return to it I am like "wdf am I doing?" It continues to just distance itself over and over and over again from other offerings. I literally leave it off for 2 - 3 weeks, then turn it on and I'm like "it sounds just ok" and as soon as it hits its stride, it puts all those thoughts to sleep. It's an interesting love affair that I can't seem to win.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
