Understood riaa. I think if I had a thread, I'd probably be similar. And, that way he can focus on what's he's providing here and on YT with the videos, which I hope folks can appreciate more than they sometimes do.
Dave
Dave
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
The point I made was in rebuttal to your comment where you stated, albeit incorrectly,...that the OP would confront whoever he takes issue with. Thats not in his DNA. He wants to be friendly with everybody and be on good terms with all if possible. You REALLY have to step over the line to incur his wrath. Cant fault him for not wanting to deal with the nonsensical BS. He hasnt asked me to step in for quite some time now....but I know what he doesnt want to deal with. So on occasion, without prompting, Im more than happy to straighten somebody out if I believe its called for and/or the OP would do so if it was in his nature. Just saving him the aggravation and taking out the garbage so he can concentrate on his gear/reviews etc He knows I have his back. |
"We don’t need to shill the speakers" Great! Happy for you. Then don’t shill, would be my suggestion. You should be happy that I compiled your long list of advertisements in the link I posted a couple of posts back. Anybody who is interested in your speakers can now read it and repeatedly learn all about your speakers, and not be distracted by the stuff WC is testing, LOL! |
To be honest with you kren0006 we don’t need anyone on this forum to buy our speakers- I fact we have customers all over the US who have purchased them - all you have to do is visit Sound Insight HighEnd Audio Facebook page or GT Audio Works website. Again My posts were purely as fellow audiophile posting information to other members on this forum. Right now they are back ordered and are one of the reasons we can’t get a pair to Jay. Simply, we can’t build them fast enough. We don’t need to shill the speakers - once you sit down and audition them they sell themselves. |
riaa - understood, and that helps me to know a little more about the owner of this thread and how things operate. Could have PM'd me, but now I guess everyone knows, which kind of negates the "hands clean" aspect. kren0006 - I understand your annoyance. And now, we all understand WC's annoyance and his use of other folks to be confrontational about it (thanks to riaa). Dave |
Counterpoint (at the risk of giving this topic way too much oxygen): Dave, you overstate the risk. We are not talking about a $50 item that is easy verify the claims. We are talking about a $25k item that near as I can tell nobody on here has purchased, even after demo’ing (if I’m wrong about that, I’ll gladly stand corrected). What is the risk to endlessly hype a product here to try to get a few big sales? Certainly less than the potential reward. The only real risk (assuming nobody buys them here as seems to be the case - again, I haven’t seen anyone state they have purchased, but I’ll stand corrected if that’s wrong), then the only risk is that they’ll get called out for shilling. I agree with you, Dave, on providing a sample for testing. I suggested it a few posts ago. But instead all it has been is advertising. That isn’t a crime, but at least to me it is annoying. That is my only point. |
Hey You don’t have to listen believe a word I say we have invited Viber 6 over again to hear the new speakers. We have had other members here on this forum over as well. They told me that they were completely shocked and amazed at the speakers performance they can step forward and put their reviews here if they so wish. |
Like I mentioned, even if it is shilling, it is risky. Any other thread, it's advertising, but in this thread it's bold. Even bolder would be for faxer to offer a pair to WC for evaluation. I would actually respect that kind of bold, because faxer would have to go into it understanding that WC could go either way with his opinion, and that opinion would be on a video and/or shared on this thread. Dave |
Dave, Well to each their own as to whether they consider it shilling, I suppose. I am going to count the number of posts that faxer has made to the thread hyping his speakers and report back. I can’t really disagree with your other points about taking a risk. Fair enough. Edit: So faxer has 50 posts to this thread, well over a full page’s worth, and several others have called him out for the same thing I did. Most of the posts are to advance his speakers. Here are the posts. Judge for yourself I guess, but yes, I call that shilling (granted, I have read the entire thread). https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/my-long-list-of-amplifiers-and-my-personal-review-of-each/by_member?username=faxer But I guess I have made my point now so let’s go back to regular programming. If others disagree with my opinion on advertising here, that’s certainly fine with me. As was mentioned, we always have the ability to ignore the advertising posts, or any others (including mine). |
kren0006, You take it as shilling - it didn't hit me that way at all. Just voicing my opinion here as you generously have for a while now. I'm sure WC can handle his own thread and deal with folks as needed. For fun though, let's say it is shilling. If so, the other side of it is to realize that any company that touts their product on this thread is taking a risk. And, I don't mean taking a risk of getting comments from you and riaa for being a shill. What I mean is that this is a thread where the owner of the thread is not your standard reviewer and is willing to call it as it is. I'm betting there are manufacturers that might even be a little bit afraid of this thread and what WC might say about their products, because WC's opinion might affect their sales. It's pretty bold for anyone to come to this thread and tout their product. So, I say, if WC is not objecting, then let them be and let them take the risk. If WC objects, I'm sure he'll address it either directly (PM) or on this thread. Dave |
Well let’s look at the evidence we have. WC apparently demo’d the GT speaker at a show with faxer right there to make sure it was set up properly. I think that speaker cost less or about the same as the 20.7, if I am correctly remembering the past shilling attempts. When it came time to purchase one or the other, WC purchased the 20.7, for whatever reason. For that matter, Viber who says he can afford anything discussed here and I have no reason to doubt that contention, has also not purchased the GT speaker despite demoing them and often praising them here, calling them in some cases the best speaker out there (or words to that effect). I’ve not heard the speaker so I have no opinion on it, just don’t appreciate the much-too-often shilling for it here, and this is important, because it has never made an appearance in WC’s room. If he had instead selected it and posted videos or comments or whatever, that would be different. But the two who have heard it on this thread seem to have gone a different direction, for whatever that is worth. And just to be clear, I'm not saying it is never appropriate to mention or suggest something WC hasn't yet tried - I've done it myself. But I don't post paragraphs and paragraphs over dozens of iterations in pursuit of that. I mention it once, figure if WC is interested he'll consider, and move on. |
Also, getting back to component matching, going back to the 1970's, Magnepan demo'd and co-marketed their speakers with ARC electronics. Does that mean Magnepan thought ARC amps were the best for their speakers? NO. Both companies were in White Bear Lake, Minnesota, close to each other. They had easy opportunities to hear their products together. The founders used each others' products. Both are good companies, but co-marketing was done for convenience. That doesn't mean ARC + Magnepan was a match made in Heaven--it just worked out in White Bear Lake. Magnepan now states that many amps at all power ratings have worked out well for their customers, a good thing. |
The eternal problem of inventors is how to sell their idea in the form of usable products. Marketing in the usual way is expensive and prohibitive for most inventors. They will perish without a practical and low/no cost alternative. A free audio forum is a great way to let the community know about a product. If a reader finds that annoying, he can just skip all the posts, little harm done. In the case of the GTA speaker, my audition of an old product showed superiority to any Maggie I have heard. I expect the latest revision to blow them away. Since Maggies have been discussed here many times in the present and past, GTA is very relevant here. Faxer also sells other products which are not relevant to Maggies, so he doesn't mention them here. I think this is all fair and appropriate. I even think that Audiogon benefits from so-called shilling, because more awareness of products helps everyone and makes A-gon a more comprehensive resource. The annoyance to some people is minor, because they can always bypass the posts, and nobody is forcing them to buy the product. |
All I was attempting to do was to respond to viber 6’s comment about bass reproduction as far as it relates to planar speakers. My intent was not to shill or push our product. This forum is intended to educate and get information to everyone so they can make informed decisions. By starting a separate independent thread would not allow this information to be disseminated to the members who are on this thread.Quite simply they would not know about this separate thread. I am done with this for now the proof is in the pudding anyone who is interested can certainly contact us for an audition of the new speakers. They will be here in a few weeks. |
Faxer + Audio Troy...remind me of Rudy (Kurt Russell) from the Movie "Used Cars". If you have to invoke somebody's name (who only buys Sub 3K gear no less) as your only credible potential customer on this thread you are indeed in the wrong place. Only people that were going to make any money in that auditioning transaction was FEDEX or UPS. Might want to rethink your vetting process cause your current model is broken. |
Faxer: I’m not claiming a right to tell anyone who can or cannot post. I’m merely suggesting that your continuous shilling is becoming embarrassing. The forum is rife with readers complaining about unsolicited pushers in other threads, and I’m suggesting that shilling the way you do is not the best approach to get readers warm up to your product. You are using WC’s thread to advertise. Nobody else does that. Not a personal attack. Just a suggestion, or opinion, as you say. if you really want him to try your speakers send him some free ones to demo like the cable companies did. |
Again this is your own personal opinion. i am not here to shill - My posts are informative and are intended to describe the differences in the technology of various speakers. You have no right to tell anyone on this forum who is allowed to post and who is not. As previously stated if it were not for this thread we never would have met Jay (at Axpona) and the potential possibility of getting him a pair of the speakers. |
Faxer you should take a cue from atmasphere. He is also a designer but never endlessly promotes his products like you do on this thread, which is about WC’s journey. I can’t remember one post you’ve made to this thread that wasn’t to shill your product. If it were one or two times, that’d be one thing. But I bet you’ve posted similar advertisements at least a dozen times. Not a good look. Just a suggestion. Or start a separate thread to hype your wares. |
Create Audio DELUXE fuses cost $20 each from Parts Connexion. I know Jay can afford "a few" of these. These fuses have a reputation to sound better than stock fuses and are dirt cheap. You can look up the fuse ratings for the Gryphon, both DAG products, the Audio Research pre and then order a single fuse for each one. Will cost you less than $100 including shipping and you can have them shipped to you overnight for $15 (such a deal!!!!). Now, for dirt cheap, you can get a glimmer of what fuses do........then you can try some more expensive Audio Horizon, Synergistic and Audio Magic fuses when you like. Come on.....you know you want to? What if it blows your mind for practically nothing? You bought a $5K amp stand for one amp.....this under $100 purchase can elevate 4 components.....make them fly. I want to hear your components the best they can be. I want all the viewers to have goosebumps galore. I want to help you get better sound. I want to kiss your sweet face......smack.... |
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WC, I understand your justification for doing A/B’s of packages, but this is based on the myth that designers know best what works together. In the end, they use their ears to make decisions about circuit refinements. But their ears, listening skills and sound preferences are not necessarily better or more valid than any of the people on this thread or any other. Same goes for voicing of amps with certain speakers. If an amp is great, it will have near-universal applicability to any speaker, except for a few obvious exceptions like a 5 watt tube amp driving an inefficient electrostatic. Believe me, an unbiased trial by any listener is unlikely to show that the same brand preamp will produce the best results for him with its amp. For some listeners, a synergy soul mate marriage may happen with brand X preamp and brand X amp. It would be serendipity, and it is just as likely that brand Y amp in combination with his other components would work better for other listeners. The example I gave of the Krell preamp and amp shows how you don’t much about what the general character of either really is, when used together. The most useful thing you can do for your followers is to try to be as scientific as possible, controlling 1 variable at a time. That way you can zero in on each component and get more definitive info about each, in the limited time you have. If you use the Christine preamp to compare the Gryphon, Merrill, Dag, that will be good enough to tell the true character of each amp. When you get more time, the Dag HD preamp and then the ARC ref 6se experiment can be done. You will come to approximately the same relative rankings of each amp. Say you use the Christine, and find the Gryphon is 8 for speed and the Merrill is 7 for speed. Then you use the Dag HD, and the Gryphon is 7 for speed and Merrill is 6. There is still the same 1 point superiority of the Gryphon for speed, no matter which preamp you use. Of course, I simplify, but you don’t want to spend all your time doing all these trials, so my simplification is the approximate thing you would find. In any case, nobody is going to plunk down serious money for any of these products without a proper home trial. They are going to make their own decisions based on their own mixing and matching with their own listening in their own systems. The best you can do is to give clear info about what each component sounds like, in your own system. The only thing necessary for compatibility is that the input impedance of the power amp should be more than 10 times the output impedance of the preamp. If it is less than 10, there will be HF rolloff. Once the ratio is over 10, almost any preamp can go well with any power amp. |
I chose No. 1 as my preference. Not sure if it's inside or out. But I'm assessing thru YouTube and YOUR room. In MY room, tweeters outside is better (no doubt), maybe because I have a smaller room so I don't have enough room between the tweeters given my listening position. I assume the mike is where your head would be. |
kren, Planars will never do low bass as well as dynamic speakers. Please don't get into the money thing, that the 20.7 won't do bass as well as the DAW because they are much cheaper. There are plenty of under $10K dynamic speakers that will do deep bass better than the $30K Maggie 30.7. The right size planar for the room will do other things better than dynamic speakers at any price, but for deep bass, dynamic speakers are king. |
On the first song, the tweeters in seemed more immediate and focused and the tweeters out more diffused. For that song, I might choose the tweeters in. For the second song, no question, tweeters out sounded so much better. Overall, vocals like the first and third song sound better with tweeters in, and drums on the second song sound better with tweeters out. Dave |
Ron17 That is EXACTLY what I was thinking. So far I have been unsuccessful doing that because when you move the Maggie’s too far apart, the mids also begin to spread and lose body because you are also separating the mids and lows. Think of it as stretching the mids to the point that they lose focus. Yes you gain with the highs but you compromise the mids.. |
I'll acknowledge that maybe I'm giving heightened attention to bass. But it's only because of the impossible to ignore lack of extension that is causing me to focus on that feature and probably make my choice of the two on the lesser of two options lacking in an important area (even if the other option may be better in other areas). |
Interesting feedback above. I certainly have my preference and will let you all know what that is. I feel like both have pluses and minuses which is how most speakers are anyway since there is no perfect speaker. I think it comes down to WHAT each person prefers. I already have my preference with this and will share that after I get more feedback from you all. |
Well I guess I’ll break with what seems to be the consensus on the YT channel. To me tweeters outside sound better (assuming that was what the second video was). I’ll note that the lack of bass extension is very noticeable in either arrangement, but that is what you get with these speakers without a sub. Very inferior in that regard and others to the Sasha DAW’s, but to be fair the 20.7 costs only 40% of Wilsons so I understand that, however I’d guess would still likely have same deficiencies even if 30.7 - not a speaker topology for bass absent a subwoofer. Let’s not kid ourselves, bass absence cannot be ignored. We perceive down to 20Hz (those who can still hear normally) and when it is missing it is glaringly obvious. The Gryphon, if anything, should be able to bring out the best bass performance, so it’s not the amp. That said, the bass sounds tighter and less sloppy with the tweeters outward in yesterday’s video, in my opinion. Maybe this results in a little less cohesion top-to-bottom (I’ve only listened once - would need to revisit), but I still think it is preferable of the two choices. It almost sounds like a wider soundstage as well with tweeters outside, which is good. I didn’t necessary notice any negative impacts on treble per se with tweeters outward, but perhaps overall cohesion as I mentioned may have suffered a bit. However, bass sounded not good to say the least to me when tweeters were inward. On top of the lack of extension, sloppy and muddled, also reaching into the lower mids even. |
Jay, Subscribed to your channel a few days ago, my first ever subscription on YouTube, it's wonderful to listen to these speakers matched with a Gryphon class A amp... so thank you for your work. As to the Tweeters in or out, with the caveat that I'm listening through an iPad connected to a single wireless stereo speaker via Bluetooth: It seems to me that with the tweeters in, the voices are clearer, sharper, more focused as though their molecules are much closer together. Though on the first track, which I guess is Sara McLachlan, I sense a *sparkle in the Highs? (Btw this song reminds me a lot of another Angel song by Jane Sibbery "calling all Angels"...) with the tweeters out the voices are not as sharp, compact, focused/clear as though their molecules are somewhat farther apart, but the stage seems deeper with more of a wraparound sound... *As for the sparkle in the highs, my suspicion is that the culprit might be the "all silver" Platinum 8 speaker cables? If so it might be worth trying an all copper cable with Maggies if you have a pair sitting around. I also have another question for which I'm going to send you a p.m. |
Alright men, Let's stay on topic. I am going to upload a video of the magnepan 20.7 with gryphon, dag hd preamp and nordost Odin 1 powercord on the gryphon. Wireworld Platinum 8 Speaker cables. You will decide HOW you like the speakers better: tweeter inside or outside. I can't wait to hear your comments ! |
Did I speak too soon about everyone behaving themself on this thread? Rita, it does seem like a shroom event for sure, lol. Also the sound alike we should have a 60s style lovefest, get naked and pass around the reality expanders. If nothing is exclusive and we are all connected, I’d like to see if I could get access to some bank accounts so I can keep pace with jays journey. You guys help out enough and I’ll keep them all, quit my job, and do any shootout you’d like. |
