Update:
i repositioned the speakers closer to the wall, moved The left speaker away from the corner and spread the speaker about 7 feet apart. Wow, what an insane difference that made. It’s like everything sounds better, more detailed and tighter.
I also decided to try both of my stereo amps in mono mode just to hear the speakers with more juice and i couldn’t bel the |
Mcintosh 1.2kw monoblocks in the house!!
I decided to pursue a pair of these puppies. What a massive amplifier that feels extremely solid upon picking it up off the floor. It actually makes the mc601s look like toys.
My initial impressions after about 2 hours of play time:
1. HUGE improvement in terms of soundstage. Music feels as if it covers the entire wall.
2. Midrange now feels more "focused" and just effortless as if it was injected with more clarity.
3. GOBBS of low end oomph. These amps can swing dynamics far better then my hegel h30 which is no surprise since it is 4 times the horsepower.
4. Runs cooler than any other amp i have ever owned.
With all that said, the speakers feel larger than ever before. These amps have so much power on tap that you feel as if the room gets pressurized as the volume goes up. Zero hint of any sort of compression as the volume goes up. I am still trying to switch back and forth between my audio research ref 6 and luxman 900u to see which preamp is a better match for these amps. Both preamps are magical with these monos and it is so close at times that you could live with either one. however, with certain songs you will hear that one will outshine the other or vice versa. No preamp is perfect and i believe it is a matter of what you listen to that determines which one best suits your needs.
I will continue to explore here and see what else i can discover.
Stay tuned! |
Thanks! for the update -whitecamaross Happy Listening! |
hi guys,
i have just listed my luxman 900u amplifier and 533h mark levinson 3 channel amps in order to make space for the 1.2kws and for the future amplifiers i will be ordering. The luxman 900u amplifier is HARD TO COME BY so grab it before it is gone. Quick review on both amps:
Luxman m900u: The best 150 watts i have ever owned PERIOD. insane layers of of sound with a HUGE soundstage. I don't think most people would ever need an amplifier with more power unless they own something like my crazy Dynaudio Temptations. The luxman m900u is in my opinion more refined than any simaudio amp, any Krell, any levinson, bhk300, theta digital, classe audio, and even some of the pass labs amplifiers i have owned. This amp is a true giant killer and built better than just about any other amp i have owned. The most lethal, intoxicating musicality i have heard.
Mark Levinson 533h: Incredible amplifier that has some of the best highs and mids i have heard. It is the most logical choice for a person that wants a musical amplifier for 2 channel and then also as an excellent multichannel amp. It runs cool and does not need a ton of clearance space like pass labs and krell do. I love the mids on this amplifier.
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Thanks! for sharing- whitecamaross Happy Listening! |
Just listed my Hegel H30 amplifier. Here is my opinion on it:
Amazing slam and attack. Zero harshness or edginess. it does not run hot at all so it can be placed in any shelf you want. I would say that this amp is a better bang for the buck than the 350.8. Having owned the 350.8, this hegel h30 has far more bass control than the 350.8. As good as the 350.8 is, this amp is just a better proposition in many ways. The 350.8 was always running hot and didn't have the same slam. Again, if you have speakers that seem anemic and you wish for more bottom end and transparent highs, this is your amplifier. This is the medicine that your doctor is prescribing. |
Well guys, i may be out of commission for a few days. After packing up the H30, Luxman 900u and putting them in their boxes, i proceeded to pick up the 1.2kws off the floor. Some of you may not know, but i am 6' 2 inches tall and weigh about 260 lbs. I've picked up a ton of amplifiers throughout the years and so as usual, i went to bend over and picked up the first 1.2kw off the floor to place it on a shelf and no problem. I went to pick up the second 1.2kw and as i was setting it down, a terrible pinch on my lower back locked me up and so i suspect i have herniated yet another disc. I am in severe pain and have stretched all afternoon and taken a few pain killers and anti-inflammatories so that it does not get worse tomorrow. These monsters managed to throw my back out ughhhhhh, but i guess this is part of this hobby that i love very much. I hope my Thanksgiving day isn't ruined after this.
i managed to have the wife help me off the floor so i can sit down and as the trooper that i am, i managed to sit up and just do another listening session. To give you a little feedback on that, i have chosen the Luxman 900u preamp over the reference 6 to be the preamp to use with these. I blasted one track at approximately 105-110 decibels according to my sound decibel meter and i had ZERO ear fatigue or discomfort (besides my back). I don't think i have ever blasted any of my speakers at such high levels and have zero desire to turn it down. I am completely astonished at how well the 1.2kw and dynaudio temptations sound. They just compliment each other and the cherry on top is the 900u. The luxman 900u has some sort of technology that basically smoothes out the highs at any volume level. Have you all ever had a set up that sounds detailed and crisp at low levels, but when you crank it up you notice that things get too bright to the point that you can't listen to it for very long? Well this is EXACTLY what this preamp fixes. As you crank up the volume it automatically compensates the highs and begins to smooth them out which allows you to sit and listen at any level. That said, the final reason why i feel it is the winner with my set up is because of the "loudness" feature which helps TREMENDOUSLY when i listen at low volume levels at night. It keeps the speakers thumping bass and with a nice sparkle. That is just priceless for me... |
Whitecamaross, I hope you feel better and are able to enjoy your Thanksgiving! Thanks for your continual posts of your audiophile journey. It benefits the entire community! Take it easy hoisting those huge amps. You remind me of my dear friend Teajay (reviewer Terry London) who lugged his 200 pound unwieldy Tekton speakers around all by himself! We audiophiles will do almost anything in pursuit of our hobby! Again Happy Thanksgiving! |
Whitecamaross I feel your pain! I tweaked my lower back 3 days ago on a power walk. This happens to me once or twice a year and is a 5 day injury each time.
Thats the problem with big amps - I have Mcintosh 501's that weigh 98 pounds each - like picking up boulders!
Feel better soon!
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@whitecamaross I also feel your pain!
I'm sure you know this but:
Iveprofan 800 mg every eight hours. Don't hesitate to get some physical therapy if you don't return to normal in a week. Hot moist heat will help.
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Thank you guys. I wish everyone a happy thanksgiving. Let’s stay off audiogon for today or else we can make our significant others mad lol |
Mark Levinson 533h is SOLD!! |
Whitecamaross, I hope your back recovers!
Do you feel that in general 3 ch amps outperform 5+ channel amps, or is it more than the stereo amp outperforms both? |
Mono>stereo>3 channel>5 or 7 channel
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Whitecamaross:
I have some Legacy Focus SE speakers and running the McIntosh MC601 amps. I find the bass slightly light and somewhat loose (I have a Hafler 9500 that gives better bass). I am looking to get another amp for the woofers. Of these, what would you recommend for nice, tight low end slam: Pass X350.5, Pass X350.8 or Parasound JC1? |
I didn't read everything but did you list the components in your system? That may explain the sound you got from some amps also. I remember many years ago a guy I know on Audiogon used tubed Wolcott amps with M Logan speakers. Happy listening. |
Elshout:
if you want bottom end, the jc1s are excellent in regards to bass and so is krell. The pass 350.8 is too much money if all you're doing is handling bass. i actually highly suggest you look into the belcanto class d ref600 monos. Outstanding bass control. |
My current list of components are:
Dynaudio evidence temptation
Mcintosh 1.2kw monos
Audio Research Reference 6 preamp
Luxman 900u preamp
Ps audio direct stream dac with bridge 2
simaudio 650d cd player/transport
Wireworld silver 7 cables throughout
backup components:
dynaudio contour 60 (will review soon)
dynaudio c1 platinums
emotiva xpa2 gen 3 power amp
mark levinson 585 integrated
audio research gs150 tube amplifier
gamut cd3 reference cd player
ps audio bhk300 monos (waiting to take delivery)
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I’d love any further thoughts on the McIntosh MC1.2KW monos. |
whitecamaross,
At the level your system has reached, I think that top level ATC speakers would really take advantage of the great amplification that you are using and show things that even the Dynaudio Temptations are unable to do. I know that they are very good and you have a lot invested in them, it's just a thought for the future. The dome midrange in the ATC speakers is incomparable, as well as all of the other in-house manufactured drivers. The power and dynamics at high levels will make many other speakers sound pale, and their neutrality at any level is pretty rare.
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whitecamaross-
you have very sweet list of components and back-up components.
Regarding the ML No. 585- which cd player, Simaudio or Gamut, was a sonic match?
Happy Listening!
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@whitecamaross if you had to choose, do you think the preamp or the amp has more impact on the systems performance?
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Joe: the 1.2kws offer massive overhead and dynamics. I cranked them up to ear bleeding levels and they remained composed as if they were still only pushing 10 watts. In my opinion, there’s no better 1,000 watt mono. Surprisingly, the luxman 900u pre and McIntosh 1.2kw sound amazing and better to my ears than the ref 6 and McIntosh 1.2kw.
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Roxy: I’ll have read up on atc speakers. Not familiar with them |
Jafant: I actually haven’t done a ab comparison between these. It may be a good shootout since they both retail for the same dollar amount. |
Robd2: I think both add a lot but I’d say the preamp is what really steers your music more in the direction you want.
However, the speakers have a lot to say about this too because for example my evidence temptations don’t want 300 watts of power. They function fine with it but they shine with far more horsepower than that. |
I always hear you go active with atc. You may want to check out the Harbeth 40.2 or 40.1. |
Because once you have had good bass and loose it due to system changes, you want it back. I have some Carver Amazing Platinums Mark IV that I ran 2 - Hafler 9500's bridged mono for 750 watts per channel. Bass was great, but the Carvers are aging and I did not want to continue to run them hard and the Haflers are a little grainy on the top end. I replaced my amps first, with McIntosh MC601 monoblocks (600 watts per channel). The mids and top end improved dramatically. The bass suffered significantly. Less bass and not as tight. I bought some Legacy Focus SE speakers to go the the Macs. With the Legacy/Mac combination the mids and top end are fantastic, but bass is sloppy. I can't run the bridged Haflers because the Legacys are 2-4 ohm in the bass region running just the woofers. A single Hafler running the Legacys have more solid and weighty bass pushing 250 watts than the Macs do pushing 600 watts. I am looking to get a good bass amp for the woofers that will be in the 500 to 800 watt range for 4 ohms.
I hope that helps Kalali. |
Monitor audio platinum 500s are in da house !!!!
Intiial impressions:
the biggest, baddest bass I have ever heard in my room HANDS DOWN. my eyeballs rattled in my skull from the massive punch and oomph these speakers provided with my McIntosh 1.2kws.
I have never heard any other speaker have the massive bottom end that these have in my room.
Midrange: very nice and centered. Not really missing anything as far as mids
highs: lots of detail but I do find them a tad less smooth than the dynaudios. They tend to get a little hot when cranked up but I’m not sure if this is just the reference 6 preamp that creates too much detail on the tweeter. I get some ear fatigue if I listen at moderate volumes.
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I've had Monitor Audio PL 500s for almost two years. Everyone hears differently, but we must evaluate speakers in the context of the "system". To my ears, in my room, with my equipment, the PL 500S are chameleon like. They are a reflection of what components and cables I have used and how well/poor the music is recorded. Most people that have heard them often label them laid back and I have never had the slightest fatigue after hours of listening. |
Well I believe you use Jeff Rowland and I’m using a tube preamp. I don’t believe a tube preamp goes well unless you are listening at low volumes. Once you crank it up, the tweeter gets a bit excited and begins to sound a hair too forward but I agree with you. It’s probably system synergy. |
Whitecamaross, I think you need to change cables. The Wireworld silver 7 cables are ok cables but with your speakers and amps they are now below the level of your system. In my set-up they have sounded leaner that purist, shunyata or tara labs
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Hi Whitecameross I have only found your thread last night and spent hours last night and this morning reading it top to bottom First I want to thank you for doing this. You are taking out all the bullshit and hyperbole you get from reviewers, which are mostly driven by advertising dollars. You are trying so much gear and giving us all a great insight into the best gear which is fabulous. I have a question as well as a suggestion. My question is I am running Triton one speakers at the moment through an emotiva xpa5 Gen 2 amp. While I have heard from you that emotiva are good bang for buck I have realised that it isn't ideal for my speakers for music listening. I found this thread as I was looking for reviews for the mc207. I don't have any more room(apartment living) to get full size monos or even another separate stereo amp so I was considering replacing the emotiva with the mc207 as I have seen one second hand for half the retail price. That way I can use it for home the artist well as 2 channel, but it was mainly to get better performance for my 2 channel. Based on what you have said this is probably the worst multichannel amp and I should be looking at the Plinius Odean instead. The issue is it isn't as cheap as I can get the McIntosh Based purely on what you said I am considering the belcanto 600m monos. Firstly because I have heard from you and read that this is one of the best class d amps that is a bit of giant killer. After hearing more since you wrote that is this still the case? I was considering ps audio bhk but can't really fit a 250 stereo let alone two 300 monos in my set up. Would the belcanto 600m (or 500s stereo) be a worthy upgrade considering my circumstances? Would it be better than the mc207 (as the McIntosh second hand is the same price as full retail bel canto in Australia at the moment.) I was also considering the ps audio class d stellar monos or stereo. Have you come across them? Price to performance with small form factor is big for me. I would love a pass lab's or luxman but don't have the space but feel I can do better for my Triton 1s than the emotiva xpa5. I will leave the emotiva for home theatre duties ( centre and surrounds) As mentioned for my suggestion I truly think you need to seek out and test out the DEQX units. Www.deqx.com. Basically these are room and phase correctors that can match your speakers to your specific room challenges, as no matter what gear you have you are always "hearing" the room to some extend. This unit the hdp5 is also a dac and pre amp and would be interested to hear your thoughts in general. Some people simply incorporate the deqx into whatever set up and preamps they have. It's pretty cool tech and I myself have the express 2 model. Check the movie out online on their website. When you buy it you need an expert to come and measure and calibrate your room and measure the response of your speakers. You have probably already heard of it I am not sure. (btw I am not affiliated with deqx. I just thought I to would be worth sharing as the tech is cool and works for both digital and analog sources.I mention it as I want to hear your thoughts on how it improves your awesome gear.) Thankyou again for this great thread. I have learned a lot over night! |
denon1: i may have to agree with you, but unfortunately with cables it is tough because i feel that they need to be inserted in your system before you make any buying decision simply because they are harder to sell if you don't like them. |
steve: thank you for your kind words. These are the kind of words that inspire me to keep this thread alive. I have actually been thinking of starting my own website next year and bring this entire thread over and have my own thing going on. That said, that is just a thought at this time.
With all that said, yes i consider the mc207 a subpar amplifier given the cost and i am 200% sure the belcanto ref600s are far superior in ever regards. Having owned many mcintosh amps, i consider the 1.2kw and 2.0kws the only respectable amplifiers that they currently make and everything else just an amplifier for those die hard mcintosh fans.
I keep a spreadsheet of every amplifier i have owned and i can say its upwards of 200 amplifiers. I don't want to praise any particular brand although i have my personal favorites.
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Well guys, a shocking event happened last night. I tried hours of listening and let me just say, i really wanted the outcome to be different, but my ears could not deny it. The monitor audio platinum pl500 ii has simply bested my Dynaudio Evidence Temptations. I did not want to accept it, but sometimes things are too clear and obvious to deny them. My partnership with the Dynaudio Evidence Temptations has ended and i will be finding a new home for them.
The monitor audio pl500ii have really elevated my system to new heights. I will write a full review once i settle down with a few things i need to handle first. One thing you need to know is that these are 300% better than the platinum 300ii. I can’t even draw a comparison between both because they truly don’t sound alike.
This was all a shock to me because i thought these platinum 300s were good and i thought the platinum 500s were going to be just a hair better with more bottom end and that was far from the truth.
HUGE SHOCK, but hey i am glad i ran into these speakers.
I have a huge smile on my face :) |
I would love to see that spreadsheet! That's incredible
If you started a website and a YouTube channel it would be a huge success. I think that's a fantastic idea. People would go nuts seeing this high quality gear in action.
Thanks for your advise on the bel cantos. I agree they would suit my needs better.
I was also considering the ps audio stellar stereo or monos as mentioned but I have also come across The red dragon s500 that has been compared favourably to the bel canto as well. Any experience with these (albeit much lower quality /cost) amps? |
Stick to Belcanto ref600s. They really impressed me.
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Ok Whitecamaross - here are some of your quotes from this thread: "Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch
(far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete
from top to bottom in regards to sound."
"Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time
around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It
is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS
i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be
the jC1s."
"Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO
AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today
to include the pass labs 350.5."
"My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these
601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage,
MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass
labs 250.8 or 350.5."
"Monitor audio platinum 500s are in da house !!!!
Intiial impressions: the biggest,
baddest bass I have ever heard in my room HANDS DOWN. my eyeballs rattled in my
skull from the massive punch and oomph these speakers provided with my McIntosh
1.2kws."
I am not picking on you, I know you have had a heck of a journey. I just wonder if you could sum of the previous amps for me and everyone else. (Parasound JC1, Pass 350.5, Pass 250.8, McIntosh 601, and McIntosh 1.2) Try to rate them in your opinion. Maybe give a grade for highs, mids, bass response, soundstage etc.
Do you think your latest bass discovery is from the Monitor Platinum 500s or is it from the McIntosh 1.2kw. If the amp, is the McIntosh the best bass amp from the above group?
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Elshout: my journey assesss Amps as of that point of time. For example, when I had the 250.8, I hadn’t tried the Luxman so I didn’t know that the luxman is far superior.
My journey keeps going and going and now im really liking these platinums 500ii ALOT.
As far as what’s creating the bass, well the 1.2kw are certainly part of the formula but they didn’t exactly do the same with the dynaudios in terms of bottom end because the dynaudios don’t drop to 22hz.
Right now, the 1.2s are doing excellent things with my speakers and to be honest I don’t even want to change our amps right now. The synergy and dynamics is outstanding with these. Maybe down the road I’ll try the 585 integrated and see what this does to the sound I’m getting out of the platinums. That said, I don’t have any desire to change out the 1.2s because of the huge power they feed these platinums. I feel these big speakers love all this juice.
We shall see what happens. Maybe I end up trying my gs150 with the reference 6 preamp and see what comes out of that?
im feeling the synergy right now with these speakers and amps. I’m almost afraid to begin to touch things but I know that’s just the nature of my journey so it will be a matter of time before I do it again. |
There are so many variables that go into picking "the best" and it's really an impossible task. I commend whitecamaross for all his efforts and hard work. I sincerely appreciate you putting into words all your experiences. Thank you. Once it's out here in the world, it's easy to second guess
(please no one take any offense to this statement - professional reviewers take the hit as well). I have done the same thing. Discover an amp in the context of a system and have that Holy S moment, only to realize something better/different comes along. Is it really better or just better in that system?
We do love to experiment, but please enjoy the music and camaraderie along the way. We all learn from each other.
Keep it up
whitecamaross!
ps, Love your comments re: the MC1.2KW amps. they have always been a dream amp despite those who tell me to stay away. :)
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today i learned that system synergy is really an important element that i haven't gone into much detail about. I just took out the luxman c900u out of the system and plugged in the reference 6 and i feel as if my system took a few steps back in terms of clarity or soundstage depth. It still sounds amazing, but i feel the luxman opened up different layers of sound that are less pronounced on the reference 6.
If i go back to my time with the clx speakers, the reference 6 sounded SPECTACULAR and far better than the luxman. So this indeed is a case of system synergy and what goes with what.
Anyhow, i am almost tempted to buy a second luxman m900u amp and run them both in mono mode along with the c900u. Something tells me that this combination would put me at a level that i may have never experienced. I am on the fence and totally feel like i should do this and go with dual 900u in mono mode which would create 750 watt monos into 8ohms.
Decisions decisions.... |
I have enjoyed reading this thread- whitecamaross
you are fortunate to have such high-end gear rotating in and out of your system for evaluation. Yes, system synergy is key. And as you have discovered takes time and patience to achieve. Keep auditioning and writing. As time allows evaluate and write more on the ML No. 585 integrated amp.
Happy Listening!
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Whitecamaross, I have also the Monitor Audio PL 500 mk2 and I like it a lot.
Is in another league compared to the PL300 mk2, which is already a terrific speaker, I heard them side by side a few times.
No ear fatique here even after hours of listening.
Be sure to use them on spikes, included in the package and I have a stainless steel disc under the spikes, custom made, which is a big improvement over the original foots.
Or, as some say, it is even better using them with Stillpoints.
I am very interested about your findings regarding the best amps for the PL 500.
I use them with ARC Ref 5SE, which is more laidback than the Ref 6, together with Krell mono 400E, far better by the way than your 402E stereo amp.
No computer audio here, my good old Sony serves me well, but I hope to change asap with the likes of an Esoteric K1 or similar. (if there is something similar lol).
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I'd like to hear any thoughts if you listen to a Vidar or a Benchmark amp...
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Sequence: I love the sound of these with 1.2kw monos and the simaudio 740p and I’ll be honest and say it grabs me more than with the reference 6. I don’t find as much synergy with these speakers and reference 6. That said, the Luxman 900u preamp is amazing with these speakers. Things just pop out of the speakers in a crazy way. I am probably going to use it as my reference with these speakers. Im just shocked at how much better these speakers are than the 300ii. Those sounded dull in comparison. I almost can’t believe they share the same tweeter.
One last thing, although I think these are very efficient speakers, they really open up with more power. I tried the Luxman amp and I feel like 300 Watts is too little. The 1.2kw are actually 1600watts !
Has anyone ever biamped these .?????? |
whitecamaross, thanks.
Now I like to hear the Luxman 900u preamp, although this is nearly impossible in my own setup.
Do you have any thoughts about the Mark Levinson no 52 preamp compared to ARC Ref 6 or Luxman 900u.
Keep going with your enjoyable and interesting thread! |
I just purchased Clarus Crimson speaker cables. I submit they take the PL500s to another level compared to the Wireworld Silver Eclipse 7 speaker cables that I had. I know there are no absolutes in Audio, but if possible you should get a loaner pair and try them. Of course everything is subjective and you may come to a different conclusion.
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Reference 6: outstanding preamp with an amazing bottom end and Highs. The best highs I’ve heard with electrostatics
No52: excellent highs and mids
luxman900u: excellent smooth sound with insane soundstage. Best highs I’ve heard with tweeters. |
Excellent thread, thanks for the ongoing effort to share your findings!
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