WC,
For the 1st time, I looked at all your pictures. I really like your present room with the shag carpet balancing out the live tiles on the floor. You might have tried thinner carpets. The leather chairs are nice, better than plush upholstery which softens the sound too much. I am not an acoustics expert, but simple can be nice the way you have it.
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WC, In the latest Absolute Sound edition, Robert Harley writes about his new custom listening room. This caught my attention as I prepare to have a custom home built with a key effort also being a listening room. So I thought this article was relevant to your project in progress as well. There is much detail about the materials, wall construction, etc., and his ability to play as loud as he wants at all times of the day and night, and not to disturb his family/neighbors. Hopefully there will be some tips/ideas for you to discuss with the contractor before things get started. |
Rowland 925s:
24 hours playtime and they are beginning to sound incredible. Here are a few things that stand out right now:
- CLARITY
- IMAGING CHAMP
- 3D that pops out of the speaker
- Bass isn’t on par with block audio or constellation centaur 2 (not now anyhow)
stay tuned... tonight will bring more thoughts. So far, this is a especial amp with panels. I knew I was on to something. |
Can you adjust the gain? Does that add or take away from the sound Good or bad? |
WC,
Some people say that Rowland amps have a "tube" sound, which includes being a little soft on the bass. I think your experience is a stark reminder that every component has tradeoffs. That all of us must pick our "poison" based on our preferences and how much we are willing to spend.
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I can see this ricred... I am going to try different pcs and a bunch of other tricks such as changing the jumper position on the Neoliths to add more bass.
As far as the gain I’m using, it’s 32db and I love it. I can hear tremendous amounts of information that wasn’t so apparent before.
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To be more specific, M925 has a toggle switch in the back to change gain from 26dB to 32dB.
BTW, I expect more bass to come in as the amp reblooms.
G.
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WC,
My guess is that as an amp with great clarity in midrange and HF, the 925 has accurate tight bass as well, although less oomph. To get a better memory of the Block, I suggest not yet changing the jumper on the Neo to get more bass. Listen to more music to confirm your early impressions. Of course, later you can do the jumper change and A/B the Centaur with the 925 that way. You will probably come to similar conclusions about the sonic differences between the Centaur and 925. If you have confirmed that the AQ dragon HC is the most accurate of your power cords, that will help make the differences between the 2 amps more evident. I predict the 925 is the winner for clarity/information retrieval/ neutrality at all freq, just as you found years ago in other systems.
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+1 Guido. Give the M925s time and healthy bass should arrive. It is not a weak suit for the M925s IME. I use Cardas Clear Beyond XL PCs with mine--the M925s also had bass aplenty with Cardas Clear Beyond PCs. I'm not suggesting the AQ PCs are the issue only letting you know the PCs driving my experience. As Guido points out M925s take a large amount of time to settle in. Patience pays a big dividend with these amps. |
Thanks guys.
Right now this is how everything is:
lampizator pacific
wireworld platinum 7 and platinum 8 xlr
odin 1 speaker cables
cardas spade to banana adapters
Audioquest dragon hc pc on the amps
odin 1 pc on the dac
constellation Virgo 3 preamp
Shunyata alpha nr on the preamp
I am contemplating the Rowland corus with the optional power supply but I’m starting to like using a dac as a preamp. I still
have to try the lampizator as a preamp. We will see what comes out of that experiment.
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whitecamaross I enjoyed the AQ Dragon PC review. Keep auditioning / reporting cabling and power cords.
Happy Listening! |
WC,
Ricred1 raised an interesting question about the bass on the 925. If it has less quantity than expected, is it because of some tube-like qualities of being rolled off like ARC 160, or accurate SS tightness with less oomph, or just lack of break in as Guido and astewart8944 mentioned? Time will tell.
Don't forget to A/B the 535 with 925 because it seems that 925 may be the absolute winner. It would be interesting to see if the 535 has some better points than the 925, or whether the 925 is better for all sonic qualities. How much better for the huge difference in price? If the Rowland Corus with the power supply is much better than the Lampi, perhaps the difference in price between the 925 pair and a single 535 makes putting the savings into the Corus dac worth it. Put another way, a single 535 + Virgo (I think the Corus requires a preamp) + Corus dac may produce better sound than 925 + Lampi. A bridged 535 pair + Virgo + Corus might be awesome. Of course, if you have the money, the ultimate might be 925 + Virgo + Corus. The quality of the source is often more important than anything else except the speaker, although Linn made its reputation by claiming its turntable was more important than even the speaker.
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Oops, sorry for my mistake. The Corus is a line stage. The same reasoning applies to my remarks above, although the Corus might not be much better than the Virgo, if at all. But Guido raves about his Rowland dac with a big difference from the upgraded power supply, so I was referring to that above.
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Viber6 is referring to the Rowland Power Storage Unit (PSU). This is an external power supply housed in a full chassis. It is based on ultracapacitors capable of powering simultaneously the Rowland Corus linestage, the Aeris DAC, and the new Rowland Conductor phono stage.... It takes these units totally off the grid and delivers a continuous stream of totally clean DC to them.... As it uses ultracaps instead of batteries for storage, it does not cause the depression of transients that sometimes battery-based power supplies suffer from. I am using PSU on my Rowland Aeris DAC, and have found PSU to be a transformational component, not only for dynamics, but also for resolution, staging, imaging, and overall realism of the presentation. ASteward can comment on PSU use on Corus. G.
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WC, before I go to the pool on this glorious, Florida sunshiny day, I wanted to ask a question. You mentioned the equipment, stating the Lampi and the pre are both in the system, but you then mention you are enjoying the Lampi feeding the amps. Which is it, please, for my clarity ? And, if you are enjoying the Lampi as a pre, into the 925s, why are you, in such a short amount of time, thinking of the Rowland pre ? Since I have been reading this thread of yours, you seem not to have patience in leaving things alone, and ime, not giving anything long enough time to break in. Not trying to be the devils advocate here, and as always, I enjoy reading your thread. Will return later. Enjoy ! MrD. |
WC,
Thanks to Guido's info, the ultimate might be an all Rowland system--dac, preamp, power amp with the enhancement of the PSU for the first two items.
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@guidocorona
Component synergy is VERY important. The M925s may prefer a Rowland preamp as well. Remind us what you are using Guido? And maybe what other preamps you've tried with the M925s. |
Last I knew, Guido runs his Aeris DAC as his preamp. I run JR Corus with the PSU as my preamp to the M925s. It is a synergistic combo IMO. This I know with certainty, the PSU makes a large difference with the Corus and with JR's Aeris DAC. |
Update:
the DCS VIVALDI 2.0 DAC is in the house!!
lampizator pacific va DCS Vivaldi 2.0 showdown ! |
WC,
congrats on the DCS. Just FYI, if you are running this with usb input, the cable makes a significant impact. I have heard repeated examples of this with all levels of Nordost. Trust me, of their offering, Valhalla 2 USB is sensational. Talk to Ron17 on this. I am currently running Tyr2 usb.
Also, if you are running external word clock even pc matters as well as ic. |
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WC,
Exciting news about the DCS Vivaldi. Using the 925 at 32 dB gain should enable you to be satisfied with volume by eliminating the Virgo preamp and running the dac with its volume control into the 925. Doing the same with the Lampi and its volume control enables elimination of the Virgo. Eliminating the Virgo will likely give more transparency/clarity for both the Vivaldi and Lampi, so then the battle will be the DCS vs Lampi in the most revealing way.
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Guys,
i spent about 30 min yesterday trying to compare both dacs through the Virgo 3 preamp and this is a brief update:
- HARD AS HELL to pick apart components at this price point
- the lampizator has more volume output than the dcs even if I set the dcs at 6v of output.
- the lampizator is more versatile since it allows for network streaming, analog inputs (mine has optional analog inputs)
- the lampizator allows to change the flavor of the sound by rolling tubes
- the lampizator is far more beautiful
- the dcs can improve its sound by adding the crazy expensive components that make up the system.
- the lampizator is faster at switching to the next song. Virtually no delays between songs.
tonight I will try to do some listening to see how each sounds as a preamp. That might be a different dog fight but for now I will probably give the edge to the lampizator for overall value/performance. |
Me thinks you should have Tube Rolled some Tung Sol Black Plate 6550's from the late 1950's/Early 60's into the REF 10 before you ditched it. Also some 6H30P-DR's in place of the stock 6H30P. Huge improvements by all accounts. Good luck with your current shootout. |
Actually the dCS also allows for “a change to the flavor of the sound” by changing the filters and/or the Ring DAC mapping algorithm. Please do experiment with these before drawing a definitive conclusion. Also an upgraded power cord, and ideally better footers, will also pay major dividends. My system description contains a pretty extensive discussion of how to tune a dCS system.
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Riaa,
ill need to perhaps roll tubes on the lampizator. I might borrow some 300b from a friend. |
Thanks for the feedback folkfreak. I have this dac only for a few days. I need to return it to the owner who also wants to borrow my lampizator.
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WCSS,
I just noticed that you had 2 REL S5s for sale on the Audiogon back in May 2017. Did you like them? Here I am pushing you to buy these things for about a year. Why didn't you let me know you already had them in the mix?
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WC,
Eliminating the Virgo will more clearly reveal the differences between the DCS and Lampi. Also, if something sounds more "beautiful" that is usually associated with loss of information/clarity. As I recall, several reviewers and maybe you found the 300B tube to be more revealing and neutral than other tubes which are more romantic and beautiful. Does the DCS reveal more info than the Lampi with 300B tubes? Same question for the 925 vs Centaur.
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Rel builds good musical subs but the s5 were no jl audio fathoms... the sledge hammer attack wasn’t there with those but maybe if I went up the ladder then things would be different. For now, I still
prefer jl audio... Maybe the no25 sub would
be what I need ? |
The 300B is considered the "romantic" tube in the SET world VS the 2A3 or 211 tubes. All 3 of these are used extensively in almost all Audio Note Amps. |
Do you have any 211 or 2A3 tubes ? |
Yes. I have RCA 211's in my Audio Note Jinro. They aint cheap...but neither are the best 300B's at over $3000 a tube. You can get the just released recreation of the famous WE 300B (made by Audio Note) for about $1000 a tube. |
On the Lampi site, there is a review article of Feb 8, 2019 about tubes in the Pacific, also posted here by grey9hound. The stock tube is the KR 300B which the reviewer found to have the fastest, most neutral sound. I remember that WC was last using other tubes in the Pacific, which the reviewer said were more romantic in sound. Since he got the latest balanced version of the Lampi, I don't know what tubes are being used there.
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I am using KR242 tubes... it’s the newest tubes that were just recently manufactured for lampizator this year. |
WCSS.
I know that I have recommended these in the past as Stereo speakers, but for your Home Theater , The Tekton Double Impact or Encore are almost impossible to beat when it comes to price / performance. They all are very easy to drive ....96db - 98db efficient. at 4ohms. They also sound Excellent.
There is a special in wall package for the Double Impacts
Or the non-in wall Double Impact have matching center and surrounds available
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Greyhound:
i already had my in-ceiling speakers purchased since last year (Martin Logan helos). I might round out the rest with Martin Logan in walls.
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Shootout begins shortly. I will listen to several cuts of music and each dac will be used as a preamp. Volume will be between 85db and 88 dB.
Set up #1
DCS Vivaldi DAC 2.0 ($36k)
Wireworld Platinum 7 USB
Nordost Odin 1 powercord
WIreworld platinum 8 xlr
Rowland 925s (stock powercords)
Nordost Odín 1 speaker cables
6V setting on volume output
Set up #2
Lampizator Pacific ($32k)
KR 242 tubes
Wireworld Platinum 7 USB
Wireworld 7 powercord
WIreworld platinum 8 xlr
Rowland 925s (stock powercords)
Nordost Odín 1 speaker cables
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@whitecamaross what have you listened to under 5000$ that sounded closest in bass mid highs and overall musical to your favourite top amp for jazz blues vocal classical 50s rock and early country?
At this moment which amps are your all time fav?
Did you also audition and review preamps, dacs, cd players and turntables? What are your favourites and why
Have you ever reviewed ML 1 monoblocs and Classe Dr3 Vhc?
Have you ever auditioned the top vintage and modern Tube Amps?
Is the Pass 280.5 still your overall fav amp regardless of speakers used? |
The JL subs have way more punch, and many prefer them for HT. The Fathom is insane. For 2 channel, I like the RELs better because they blend so well with full range speakers, and are super fast. Some of us crossover the RELs at 100-120hz. I haven't heard the REL no.25, but I read a glowing review of them from an English website (Home Cinema Choice). Of course, you would need 2 of them. And they are beasts in size. The review explains why I like the REL brand better. https://2y2ro62wfbas3svllg2i0s1t-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/HCC_271_Rel_sub_... |
Ok guys,
i played mainly redbook files and I played with the filters on the dcs and settled on filter 5 which is what the manual recommends.
Here are my main impressions in my system based on the set ups described above:
DCS Vivaldi:
PROS:
- outstanding bass with tight, clean, punchy notes throughout all music played
-Clear mids with an incredible level of articulation.
- highs are clean and crisp with no edginess of any kind regardless of the content
- MQA is insane. I’m now an mqa believer because of this machine.
- amazing instrument separation
- the best solid state dac I’ve had here
CONS:
- soundstage is big but not the tallest
- lacks the 3d dimensionality of some of the best gear I’ve had here
-lacks the emotion of tube equipment
-although it has accuracy in spades, it can also rob you at times from connecting to with the music
- Short decays
Lampizator Pacific (KR 242 tubes)
PROS:
-Huge soundstage that is both, wide and tall
- deep presentation where you can hear words echo in deeper layers
- world class highs with outstanding decay
- midrange is excellent as expected from a tube
- insane amounts of emotion and feeling with the music you play through it
- the best 3d sound I’ve ever heard through my Neoliths (Rowland & lampizator)
CONS:
- bass control could be tighter, deeper
- Tubes aren’t cheap so there is a cost of ownership which is not the case with the DCS
- Long listening sessions end up being until 2 am which makes you sleepy the following day.
With that said, please remember I’m doing an instant A/B comparison. I’m not comparing things using my memory. This is being done RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW. A few things that jump at me through the DCS is instrument separation and bass. They are so amazing and incredible and yes they do beat the lampizator’s own BUT I prefer the massive, musical and engaging presentation of the lampizator. I realize you can’t have it all with a component so I choose the musical & emotional presentation of the lampizator over the accuracy of the DCS.
Of course, if the DCS was indeed the full system then I expect it to beat the lampizator but I’m trying to do an apples to apples here. Dac vs Dac.
I also could have used the expensive powercord on the lampizator but I decided to use the cheaper wireworld silver 7 instead and the Odin 1 on tbe DCS and I still choose the lampizator over the DCS based on my own preference.
I also wanted to say that the Virgo preamp DOES help the DCS become more romantic sounding with more 3D sound. If I were to keep the DCS, I’d have to keep the Virgo 3 preamp.
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@whitecamaross great work thanks very much.
You had asked about tubes. I would get nos tested vintage and newer repros so then you could compare. Make sure both are broken in before compare.
Side note I have Sansui 2020 tube integrated from the 50s. I can tell the bass and mid coming out of that little guy is soo deep its limitless. Beats any other amp ss included ive ever heard. Even on cheap made in china 15$ speaker.
As a suggestion Listen to the biggest baddest Altec or Western Electric Tube Amps from the 20s and 40s with those 205 tennis ball tubes or those big vintage 2a3 245 845 211 300bs or the Telefunken RS241 prewar tubes. Audition them with Altec Votts, EV Patricians 4s or 700s with the big 30inch woofers or Jensen triaxial 610 imperials, Vitavox korners, Jbl 3way Hartsfields, Tannoy Autographs, Goodmans 615,
Thanks again |
@riaa_award_collectorsthe245 is rated above 300b and 2a3 and Rs241 above the 3
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1:22 AM right now. I’m getting off the couch. I am extremely impressed with the Rowland 925/lampizator pacific combo.
My overall level of satisfaction is extremely high. Having the constellation centaur 2s off to the side reminds me that I might have to do one last shootout before I decide what’s staying and what’s going to be leaving my system.
Thanks everyone. Good night |
WC,
In my experience super high-end systems produce everything(details, tonality, bass, clarity, musicality), but what really separates them is their ability to provide a soundstage that is both, wide and tall where images are still proportional. Have you found that to be the case through your journey? |
WC,
Thanks, very informative. What specific tonal qualities distinguish MQA vs non-MQA versions of the same recording, whether redbook or high rez original recordings? Any pros and cons? Now see if higher resolution/clarity of the 925 is associated with less beautiful sound than the Centaur. If the 925 still has the beauty along with more clarity, than you might want to try the Rowland Aeris dac, which Guido loves.
Slightly off topic, yesterday in a theater I saw the new movie, Alladin in the 3D version. I found the 3D effect artificial, like 2D paper cutouts suspended from the ceiling at various distances. Of course, natural 3D shows objects in 3D at various locations right to left and front and back. I got used to the movie 3D as it was, and would admit that sometimes it works. But a big disadvantage is that the 3D glasses you wear cut out the light by probably 75% or so. The 3D effect is there, but the overall ambiance is darker. So the analogy with audio systems is that reduced light illumination is like reduced clarity in audio, and the artificiality of 3D video is somewhat like bloated and indistinct images of perceived 3D of electronics.
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Ricred1,
So I think right now I am getting a balanced soundstage but I don’t know how this will be impacted once I am in the dedicated room. The centaur 2 monos definitely Throw a larger picture so maybe it might be better for a larger space?
It is tough with components of this caliber guys. It is not simple and easy to gauge. It becomes a matter of WHAT you like best.
Accuracy is indeed important but if I find myself analyzing the recording rather than enjoying it then that is a problem FOR ME.
I am also a huge believer that about 90% of well designed dacs pretty much provide the same picture from redbook files with differences being more having to do with system synergy. If your system can’t let you hear what else a certain dac brings to the table then it doesn’t make sense to spend more.
MQA sounded HUGE, more volume, more body, IMAX like presentation. It was as if the music was on steroids but in a good way. |
Emm Labs is working on MQA as we speak, for their DA2 DAC. It could be good.
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WC,
Comparing 925 with Centaur, does the Centaur have less accuracy but more warmth of tone along with more space? How do 535 and 925 compare in these criteria? If you prefer the 925 over the Centaur for most important criteria, is the 32 dB of gain enough for you to not need the Virgo for volume? That would be nice, because bypassing the Virgo or any other preamp gives you more transparency/clarity. Does MQA sacrifice fine detail in the process of creating bigness? |
WC, I am not surprised the dCS Vivaldi 2.0 DAC did not outshine the Lampizator DAC directly to the amps. As an owner of a partial dCS Vivaldi stack I never liked the sound going directly to my amps and get better sound going through my preamp. I do agree the MQA capability of the dCS DAC is insane and gives my vinyl setup a run for the money. I am familiar with all of your cables and use a Nordost Valhalla V2 USB cable (upgraded from WW Platinum 7) which allows for a bigger soundstage and greater detail. I don’t have a problem with image height but I am going from a Vivaldi DAC to their Vivaldi 2.0 Upsampler, which takes the sound to another level. Love your journey and can relate to many of your changes or auditions, i.e. My audition of the ARC M160 led me to the same conclusion...they don’t have the juice to drive my speakers and left me wanting more. Keep the assessments coming, enjoying the journey.
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