My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

@henry201, how are you streaming? What is your streaming receiver?

You can try any title you wish. They don't sound the same. Am I listening to the exact same thing? Only Tidal and Qobuz know 😐

Yes, same files so called "CD Quality". SQ on my set up is definitely different.

According to Tidal (which is in the link you just sent), MQA compression scheme is only used on their Master Quality files. I am talking about their "HiFi" service.

"TIDAL HiFi provides uncompressed lossless sound quality, streaming at 1411kbps or 16-Bit / 44.1 kHz."

Should be the same "CD quality" as Qobuz.

Tidal HiFi service is FLAC, same as Qobuz. 

I never stream for critical listening. In my setup, it's never as good as ripped files and definitely not as good as direct from a CD transport (44.1 that is). Also, if streaming files are ‘untouched’, why there is such clear differences in SQ between Tidal and Qobuz?

What's going on with the turntable?  Maybe I missed it.  Is it being used or is everything digital for the time being?  When will the turntable be put through paces?  Again, sorry if I missed it amongst all the other chatter - busy

I agree with viber6 that it would have been nice to have the same music on the last two videos.  Still,  I prefer the sound on this last video over the video before it.  Can possibly make a good case for the Stromtank with factory power cords :-)

Dave

Jay,

It still sounds great with cheap power cords, but the music is different so I can't say what differences can be attributed to different power cords.  YT is probably unable to discern the true differences, although it would be easier since the gain would be the same with different power cords on the same music.

henry201.

Regarding the Magico S7 vs M6, theoretically you are correct.  However, speakers account for the lion's share of the total sound.  My judgment is that Jay's system with euphonic electronics would still be more revealing and true to life than the M6 with his most revealing Boulders.  I found the M6 dull, when Jay then had otherwise excellent ancillary gear.

theaudioamp,

You again have poor reading comprehension.  I said that the audiophile can do technically inappropriate things.  It doesn't matter--he is after the sound that works for him.  All kinds of EQ, tracking force, VTA settings, loading options are on the table.  The important thing is that the audiophile should have a good ear to discern how far he can vary from what is technically correct to get a musical, revealing sound in the context of the rest of his system.  

The odds are you have a mediocre system based solely on your fanaticism about correct measurements, and are a mediocre listener.  If you were to vary the settings from what is technically correct, you would ignore if your ears determined that it sounds more true to life that way.

The above video is with a cold stromtank that was literally powdered on and components were plugged right after it. Zero time for the stromtank to stabilize its internal electronics. 

Agreed. In addition, I find some Qobuz files sound better than my direct to SSD ripped CDs. Sometimes my ripped CDs sounds better. Sometimes it is a toss up. No broad brush answer to the question of which medium sounds the best.

Improving my streaming with the Network Acoustics Muon ethernet filter, cables and switch has really improved my streaming quality to the point that CD transports and direct ripped CDs don’t sound better in many instances. It comes down to the individual recording every time.

File this under, "things that audiophiles believe that are not true".  Video is never sent uncompressed. It is easy to adjust compressed data up and down. They purposely use variable bit rate formats.  Uncompressed audio is not like that. You can't strip data from FLAC like you can from a compressed video stream. And no, the Internet H/W and providers can't do that on their own either. That's conspiracy level bull.

Streaming quality is inferior to playing files from a HD, and it is always changing based on your current bandwidth. You just never know what kind of compression you are actually listening to (it does not matter what Qobuz telling you about the quality, it is passed their control - think about the times you see Netflix/amazon and the quality changes) . A lot of the comments you get about “sterility” is due to that. You spend a fortune, not to mention precious time, assembling an incredible system, why would you compromise the sound right at the source?"

"Streaming quality is inferior to playing files from a HD, and it is always changing based on your current bandwidth. You just never know what kind of compression you are actually listening to (it does not matter what Qobuz telling you about the quality, it is passed their control - think about the times you see Netflix/amazon and the quality changes) . A lot of the comments you get about “sterility” is due to that. You spend a fortune, not to mention precious time, assembling an incredible system, why would you compromise the sound right at the source?"

Jay, Quite right. Streaming services will reduce their bandwidth at busy times and leave the carrier showing full resolution. They do this to prevent interrupting delivery of the product. And the passage of the signal through all the those cables and systems can take its toll. My local ripped files travel a few metres. Confirmed by an employee from one of the companies.

Upon consideration a substantial part of Jay's struggles may be the "third-world" quality of his electric and internet service and he is trying to adjust or compensate for those systems faults, weaknesses and deficiencies of course I am just speculating here but the US is known for its aging, obsolete infrastructure so any of the problems Jay is trying to overcome may be very real so the batteries may be a proper, appropriate, reasonable solution. 

@viber6

I happen to think Jay’s Magico S7 speakers have much more articulation and detail than the M6 he had.

Always so fast with dubious conclusions 🙄 It’s about time you realize it is about the entire setup, especially when it comes to such a transparent product like Magico. You have not heard the M6 on anything remotely as good as what Jay has now. You can’t begin to speculate on the M6 sound, let alone the M9. Hopefully Jay will revisit the M6 (or M3)

Yes, do what @viber6 suggests. Everyone wants a poorly tracking, channel mismatched, cartridge/amp mismatched, distorting, record destroying vinyl setup. Or you could set it up properly, so you can compare properly to digital and use an equalizer if you want a different sound.

grannyring,

Right.  No one knows it all.  I happen to think Jay's Magico S7 speakers have much more articulation and detail than the M6 he had.  The M9 probably has only more bass, and I probably would prefer the S7 to the M9.  One of the few videos on the real flagship Magico, the horn, shows it to sound like a leaden elephant.  So much for being impressed with expensive items.  Some are great, like Boulder, but listening is required in all cases.

This statement: “believe me this isn’t coming from an internet forum member...” can come across as rather demeaning. Right? Good to realize that many “forum members” have great value and unique areas of audio expertise that even those with million dollar systems can learn from. Important to remember that no person, even the most experienced and studied in a particular area of study, can’t possibly possess more that a very small percentage of the total wisdom and knowledge available.

I'm buying dsd music soon and will make an attempt at trying to live with it 

Jay,

If streaming is mediocre, wait before you hear your vinyl setup before spending another penny on digital.  There is so much to try on your vinyl setup.  Ignore the "proper" technically correct settings on your Boulder phono stage.  Try different cartridge loading options for MC.  Try the different EQ settings offered.  RIAA may be proper, but try the other EQ settings--FFRR, EMI.  The latter two were for older records.  Try different tracking forces on the cartridge.  I have used the lower range of the recommended tracking force to obtain highest clarity and HF extension.  Of course, mistracking must be avoided, so use the lowest force possible.  If you want a more bass heavy and warmer sound, higher tracking force will give that.  Some people have said that the higher tracking force produces the least record wear, which is counter-intuitive.  You can vary the vertical tracking angle (VTA) for different tonal balance.  Raising the arm pivot increases the VTA, and will produce a brighter sound, although the bass will be thinner and coherence will suffer.  Records are cut differently, so one record will sound better with a different VTA than another record.  Forget the technical screams of you know who, and do it ALL by ear, according to your taste.

When I tell you he is an industry expert, he is... His system and room are probably 2.5 million dollars.... Believe me, this isn’t coming from an internet forum member...

He is as serious as a heart attack... Owns magico M9 speakers...

ricevs,

You are right--I don't know whether the parts and execution are better on the Stromtank 2500 than the Amperetime/Giandel system?  For the money of the Strommy, the parts are likely and ought to be better, but how does the sound compare between the two systems?  No one knows yet.

I started to post on the other thread you linked at the top of this page, and first linked by grannyring on the previous page of this thread.  That thread is growing fast, so those interested can go there.

jays_audio_lab

I have been communicating with a top audio industry expert who brought to my attention something quite interesting. I am copying and pasting and what i want is to hear your thoughts on this subject.

"Streaming quality is inferior to playing files from a HD, and it is always changing based on your current bandwidth. You just never know what kind of compression you are actually listening to (it does not matter what Qobuz telling you about the quality, it is passed their control - think about the times you see Netflix/amazon and the quality changes) ..."

He is pulling your leg, Jay! No one with any credibility would put their name to that claim other than as a joke.

@cleeds

"It’s pretty clear you have some AC problems here. That certainly explains your interest in battery solutions."

Ugh...i was to go off right now but let me keep my cool...can one of the ac experts on here explain to him how you can you use s regular outlet on a 220v 30a... 🥺

I don't have time for this nonsense and i know there are a ton of electrical gurus because I see their posts occasionally. 

Much appreciated if someone can.

Is this person knowledgeable about optimal bandwidth for music streaming? His/her loose logic isnt terribly incorrect but how music data is streamed over ethernet and its associated protocols is quite different than that required for optimal video streaming. Thats why high speed (gigabit) is touted (rightly so) for video streaming and why most/many reputable audiophile switches pump the brakes hard and reduce speeds to a steady and reliable 100mbps which is presently the optimal speed music. It matters.

At least on my music server, the sound quality differences between local files and streamed music from Qobuz/Tidal is very, very slight…a difference maybe but without a distinction….on par with the differences between exceptional interconnect A and exceptional interconnect B. It likely has more to do with added noise in his/her streaming chain…which could be mitigated on his/her system by bypassing much of the streaming chain by playing direct from a local file.

Hi everyone

So since we have been discussing the stromtank for quite sometime, i would like pause for a moment and talk about something we've never EVER talked about before: streaming content. 

I have been communicating with a top audio industry expert who brought to my attention something quite interesting. I am copying and pasting and what i want is to hear your thoughts on this subject. This has been an eye opener for me and could totally change my perspective with regards to streaming going forward. 

"Streaming quality is inferior to playing files from a HD, and it is always changing based on your current bandwidth. You just never know what kind of compression you are actually listening to (it does not matter what Qobuz telling you about the quality, it is passed their control - think about the times you see Netflix/amazon and the quality changes) . A lot of the comments you get about “sterility” is due to that. You spend a fortune, not to mention precious time, assembling an incredible system, why would you compromise the sound right at the source?"

This comment above kinda slapped me in the face and it's now definitely going to make me change a few things going forward. Please comment !

@grannyring That Bluetti looks like a pretty good deal if it works. Not out too much if it doesn’t work and still a nice thing to have around for other power needs. However if it works, Great! I like the additional battery option that allows you to move the battery only in a separate place from the inverter. I don’t even have terrible power now and no dedicated line, so I’m pretty sure It would give some improvement. It will give me an idea of if I’d want to go further into this type of power conditioning. I enjoyed the video on it. Thanks

BLUETTI has a model that does not combine and the fan would also likely never come on. An audio friend of mine uses it and it is quiet. Newest top model. It is worth looking into. Believe it is the AC300. The lower model’s fan also has never turned on.  The units are heat sinked. 

Audiophile parts and execution? So, Viber how do you know the parts and execution on the $27,000 Stomtank (2500 watt hours) are better than the Giandel $2800 system (5000 watt hours)? You have looked inside them both? Have you listened to them both? "way to go?" The only ones that KNOW anything about inverters are those who have listened and compared.......this is a brand new game.....not much real info out there.....but I trust my friends ears.....and his comparisons.

Here is a persons experience with the Bluetti......so how does it compare with Goal Zero, Ecoflow Pro, Gaindel, Stromtank and a million other inverters? NO ONE IN THE WORLD KNOWS.......at least not yet: This game is just beginning.....I am spreading the word as fast as possible. Remember, I make not one cent from this. 

Look at the Bluetti site grannyring linked.  The basic 200P model 2000 watt hr is an all-in-one battery/inverter, $1599, 60 lb package.  The next level up is the 300 model 3000 watt hr inverter only, $1899, 47 lbs.  The required separate B300 battery is $2099, 80 lbs.  The package is priced at $3699.  This is the package to consider.  Trouble is, the Bluetti site review are from campers, no reviews of sound quality.  Same for Goal Zero.  The only sound reviews we have are from Tom Lyle, and the experiences of ricevs and his friend, and Jay.  We need more audiophile reviews of these cheap and lightweight products.

At this point, it is looking like the Stromtank 2500 is the way to go for audiophile quality of execution, parts, etc.

Goal Zero, Bluetti, Ecoflow.....these are all the same type of thing....they have the battery and inverter inside and sometimes the charger. Their problem is, they are all noisy......because they are so crammed inside they have fans that come on with very little or no current draw. Who wants fan noise in your room?

My friend was using the 3000 watt Goal Zero in another room to isolate the noise....then he got the better sounding 3600 watt EcoFlow Pro unit......that sounded even better.....but again.....was noisy. Then it died (what a blessing) and he got the Giandel system.....and its fan will not come on till you are drawing at least 2000 watts continuous (something no one willl do if you are just powering your stereo).....so the Giandel system can be used close by....and in your room.....and it sounds worlds better than the Ecoflow Pro unit that already sonically beat the Goal Zero unit. I would not touch an all in one unit with a stick.....they are all inferior to separate batteries/inverters..........you can just put a nice covering over the batteries and inverter and it will look fine......use your brain.   Be creative.

Correction to my post.  The brand of the off grid battery system is BLUETTI not BLUEDDI. 

cleeds,

It is obvious that the best road to purity includes all the steps on the way. First step--you have dedicated lines. So does Jay with his dedicated lines plus better outlets. Maybe you went all the way like ricevs’ friend with his own power transformer outside, close to the transfer station. Second step--you found that a great conditioner is still important. But ricevs’ friend found that a great conditioner like the Puritan plugged into his dedicated line was far inferior to the combination of the Ecoflow Pro battery/inverter and Puritan. So the third step is the battery/inverter. It seems like Jay has done it all and found that THE most important step is the battery/inverter. Theoretically, perhaps the perfect conditioner could make the other steps unnecessary. The reality is that all the steps contribute as a team.

If theaudioamp is correct that if the dedicated lines don’t terminate in the same box, there will be ground loop noise. So just get rid of the ground loop noise by regenerating the AC with a battery/inverter, and then use a Puritan or other conditioner to clean the noise from the inverter. All these sources of noise are a constantly changing environmental nuisance. The best dedicated lines and outlets won’t correct this completely. We need to be off the grid, and likely use a conditioner for the finishing touches.

Want to thank Jay for bringing up the whole area of going off the grid for your audio system.  The Stromtank units look to be wonderful. 
 

Unfortunately, at the price of admission I won’t be buying one.  Here is a new thread that outlines products made by Blueddi. These are more affordable and do not have that DIY look Jay dislikes.  No Stromtank aesthetically, but a step up from Ric’s nice DIY option aesthetically.  
 

Jay,

Agree with everything you said today at 9:13 AM.  Yes, you may hear some popping noises from older LP's.  For classical, Mercury Living Presence made the most exciting recordings from the 50's and early 60's, but there is lots of hiss.  But there is so much resolution and information and exciting transients that you can just ignore the obvious noise.  That's an extreme example, and with modern LP's the noise is minimal, so on balance you will hear so much of the music.

If your dedicated lines don't terminate in the same box all sharing the same close ground at your equipment than your dedicated lines are making it worse, not better. Multiple dedicated lines to physically separated outlets with equipment connected to them, and then that equipment connected with interconnects etc. Is the antithesis of proper wiring to lower noise and no viper I don't need to listen to know that.

Just my two cents but I am a believer and user of balanced power conditioners like Equitech, etc. and while they may be priced higher they do make a difference and "clean up" the sound.

5 dedicated lines... 30a, 30a, 20a, 20a, 30a(220v)

All with 10 gauge wire and aftermarket outlets. 

@cleeds It is very possible since Jay purpose built his audio room (the construction was included earlier in this thread) that the power is already on dedicated lines and these observations are in addition to that situation…