whitecamaross
are you looking to replace the Neoliths? Happy Listening!
are you looking to replace the Neoliths? Happy Listening!
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
EMS in some countries is short for "Express Mail". You would have to find out the size/weight restrictions from the country the stuff is coming from to see if the Post Office would accept it. Obviously FEDEX etc are more lenient and take bigger/heavier packages. I only ship to Europe...not the other way around. I have a FEDEX account and they do offer VERY large discounts thru a "shadow" subsidiary that few know about. If I ship a 10 Pound medium size package...say 18x24x5... to Europe going thru "Normal" FEDEX/UPS etc they want $500-600 and it arrives in Europe a few days later. Using the "shadow" system they don't want the public to know about I can ship the same exact item for $90-100. They may have these same options on packages Coming FROM other countries...but you have to factor in the Customs charges if the person on the other end is going to insure for full value. I never Insure anything and have had no problems in 33 years sending at least a couple of thousand items. |
WC, As thezaks (Dave) mentioned, another option for large soundstages is any tall line source speaker. The GT Audio without the subwoofer addition of faxer is an example. It is tall and narrow. Another example is one of the models of Wisdom Audio which makes SOTA ribbons. Both of these speakers have more accuracy than any Maggie to my ears. These tall speakers give a wide and deep stage, but with less bloating and smearing than large panels. A singer has the dimensions of a baby elephant compared to a big elephant from large panels. The reason is that the large panel has duplication of drivers from all its parts, so is like a dynamic speaker with dozens of little drivers spread on its large blanket. This is NOT true to life. Imagine 12 musicians spread out in a horizontal line across a stage. The whole stage is wide, but each musician has small width and is more like a point source. The point source speaker will most accurately reproduce the true point source of each musician. The line source is less accurate than the point source, because it has vertical duplication of the drivers, but is needed to provide more volume output from the inefficient transducers. Least accurate is the big panel. The big panel is only appropriate for reproducing very large instruments like the 9 foot piano or church pipe organ. A horn speaker is an interesting case of a hugely dynamic speaker as a point source. The small driver in the throat of the horn is naturally amplified by the horn, so you get the best dynamics of any speaker, better than the Neo or Soundlab or huge Maggie 30.7. Images are more focused from the horn than from the large panel. The Klipschorn is a point source in the midrange and HF with a large wavefront launch in the bass only. This imaging is true to life, because mid/HF instruments like acoustic guitars, voices and brass are near-point sources, whereas bass instruments like the string bass are much larger. I remember you didn't like the "shouty" quality of some horn speakers you heard in the past, but the horn speaker really yields the most lifelike images. Here is where a dedicated EQ like the Rane can save the day by modifying the tone to your taste. But I still say that the best compromise for you might be the Persona 9H. The bass controlled system might make the inferior aluminum driver as accurate or more so than the Be driver for the bass used in the model B. The big IF is whether the Be midrange driver equals or exceeds the resolution of the stat driver of the Neo, so I would like your opinion on that. It is about resolution, not bigness. If the 3F still doesn't give the midrange resolution (think clarity of words in the song) of the Neo, then you might as well stick with the Neo. In that case, the 9H will just be another expensive dynamic speaker that still can't compete in resolution to the electrostatic. |
Bob Carver also has line source speakers that have reviewed well. Just can't sit 5' in front of them - need a little more room than that. Not sure where WC sits from the speakers. Bob's speakers also appear to be positioned closer to the front left/right corners than other speakers, so that helps with the distance. Dave |
OP it is very doubtful that Paradigm will be showing a set of the 9H at Axpona and even if they did it would be with much lesser electronics their own STR electronics which for the money are excellent but not in the uber class of electronics which can derive the maximum results with the 9H Last time we say them at a show it was with the 5F on an Anthem STR with a laptop running cheapie cables not a bad demo but not up to snuff. We have the Persona 9H with all T+A electronics, an Innous Statement, a Light Harmonic Davinci Dac, with all high end cabling and power conditoning in a 26 by 20 foot room, if you come in for a visit you can get a proper idea on how they will really sound in a room somewhat comparable to yours. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Persona, Innous, Light Harmonic, T+A dealers |
mlimpression, The ML speaker (is it a hybrid electrostatic?) tells the truth with highest accuracy. Personally, I want electronics and sources to be accurate also, but you have to decide whether your tastes are like mine or whether you want euphonic, tube-like smooth sound with rolled off highs, etc. The ML will reveal everything you have in the front of it, like amps, DAC's, etc. For great sound and terrific value, I love my Mytek Brooklyn amp at only $2000. If you don't listen loud and don't need additional gain, you can't do any better for total transparency than the Luminous passive preamp as described by mrdecibel about 4-6 months ago. Review his posts. |
Lampizator will hopefully be here in 10 days or so. Right now, the Neoliths are staying until I find a speaker “convincing” enough to give me some of what I like about of the neoltihs and also bring new qualities to my music. I don’t think that’s an easy thing and this is why it’s scary to go to speakers of this caliber. You are often times cursed for not being able to find a decent replacement unless you spend close to the same money. At this level, it’s tough... very tough. |
WC, Can you answer the most important question about which speaker's midrange is the most accurate and detailed--the 3F or Neo? If it is the Neo, stay with it. If it is the 3F, you know what I advised. It is not a matter of money--an expensive horse with gold plated carriage will be outperformed by the cheapest car on the market. It is about technology--are the new Be or Zylon drivers more accurate than the old tech electrostatic technology? The cheapest ML stat is more accurate than most or all $100K-plus dynamic speakers. |
Very different mids. The Neoliths have a larger midrange and the 3f have a smaller one but more focused since it’s a smaller speaker. It’s more focused but smaller and well the soundstage is nothing to compare. As far as the highs, I feel as if Neoliths have more “accurate” highs. The beryllium tweeter is detailed but at times can get a little out of balance. If you play music with pronounced highs, the Neolith will be better because it won’t be forward sounding but with the 3f you might get brightness if you crank things up. For movies, the persona is excellent though. If I were doing strictly home theater, I’d do a persona set up hands down. I really DO NOT like electrostatics for movies. So it really all depends on the material you are playing. I would agree that the large panels might be a little bit on the warm side of the spectrum but that is solved by using class a amps or tubes. As far as transparency, I’ve never had a speaker as transparent as the Neolith. Its large size makes it VERY VERY EASY to detect what changes when you change components. With other speakers, it becomes somewhat more difficult at times. Who knows, maybe I never end up moving to other speakers because I can’t get anything that sounds as impressive. |
Audiotroy, i want to ask you, WHY would any manufacturer who is trying to sell a 34k speaker use subpar sources and electronics especially when their product is being criticized all over? also, why is Wilson audio THE ONLY manufacturer that cares what they display their speakers with? Imagine you trying to sell 120k speakers as a “dealer” but you don’t exactly have a store but rather a garage... who do you think would buy them? This is what’s stupid about this industry. Why don’t they display Louis Vuitton purses with croc shoes next to it at saks fifth avenue? Perception is key in many aspects especially when you’re talking big money. You can’t attract the right crowd if you have zero idea how to display product. I wish audio manufacturers had REAL marketing departments... oh wait, no that’s a bad idea because then the 2k parasound amps will cost 5,000 to cover marketing costs. An educated buyer (in this case an audiophile) knows what the mark up is on most products. That’s no longer a big secret. The internet is here and everyone talks so those days where people had to pay retail for stuff are gone unless you are making so much money that you don’t have time to shop around. Any dealer who comes to audiogon knows 99% of the people here want a deal. Nobody on this site is here to pay retail on anything. After all, isn’t that what audiogon is all about? To present the best possible deals on “high end” audio products. |
I think some good horn speakers would tick all the boxes you like. The Avantgardes are gorgeous in sound and looks. And the best part you don’t need boat anchors for amplification. You will open up a whole new chapter of small set type amps to explore. They are endgame sota speakers that I would get in a heart if I had a bigger space than my 11x14 ft office. The Lampizators love horns too! |
WC, My impression hearing that you find the Neo the most transparent is that they have the greatest accuracy as well, so you are able to hear the words in the song more clearly than with the 3F. Am I correct? If so, then electrostatic midrange still is more accurate than even the high tech materials in dynamic drivers. But the HF of the Neo are not as revealing as the HF of the 3F. So the 3F is basically a very high value version of the Magico you had, even better on an absolute basis. The weak point of the Neo is the large curved diaphragm which rolls off the highs compared to a smaller diaphragm dedicated to the HF, such as the ML CLX. I have always felt the CLX to be better than the Neo in every way except for ultimate dynamics and bass extension. The imaging of the CLX will be tighter and more focused than the Neo, because most of the image down to 300 Hz is created by the narrower diaphragm. With the CLX you have the wonderful midrange of the stat, probably more accurate than the Neo because of its smaller panel dedicated to the midrange and HF. The CLX image should be a decent size because it is still a panel. The Be tweeter of the persona F series is probably still more accurate than the CLX HF, only because the CLX still uses a curved panel. Flat stat panels like my Audiostatic or the original King Sound King have better HF response in the sweet spot than the CLX, but for a readily available stat, the CLX is tops. |
dguitarnut and WC, I agree that the Avantgarde horn speaker is a top contender for WC. I heard the original Trio model at a NY show with a low power tube amp. This didn't include the humongous bass horns now available. The Trio did well even in that small room, and I was sitting close, in the front row. The HF were excellent, possibly better than from the Neo. And that was from a tube amp, which usually sounds rolled off on most speakers. Brass instruments were present and crisp as a testament to the accuracy of midrange and HF. Imaging was natural, without the bloating of large panel speakers. So for dynamics, overall accuracy and proper imaging, I believe the AG Trio beats the Neo. The only question is whether the AG midrange is as accurate as the Neo. I suspect not quite, since electrostatic technology is still superior to any dynamic driver. Now if AG decides to use Be or Zylon for these drivers, the use of the horn would bring even less distortion to these drivers, and then the AG would be serious competition to any stat speaker. It appears that WC should just settle with his Neo for a long time, unless he switches to the ML CLX + REL subwoofer. |
I am responding to posts by faxer and whitecamaross on page 124. I recently took delivery of and have the initial setup of my GTA3r speaker system. Though I continue to fine tune the setup and room acoustics, the system is sounding really good and improving all the time as the drivers, subs, and new line stage log hours. I'm also dealing with room treatment tuning issues as I respond to the increased demands these full range speakers place on the listening space. I've added 4 more Apertures to the back wall and panels on the side walls but measuring tells me I need a little more absorption on the sides.
All that aside, I lived with original Acoustat X speakers with heavily modified servo amps(Dan Fanni) from 1979 to 2009. In 2009 I gave up on the amps due to continual high voltage failure issues. I changed to a 2-driver dynamic speaker system from LaHave(LH). I missed all the strengths of the panels but enjoyed the LH speakers for what they were. All the while I listened to all the usual suspect panel speakers on the market over the years in homes and at shows. As the Ops Mgr at Stillpoints for 5 years, I was exposed to a lot of speakers. I was always on the lookout for my next panel and first found GT Audio Works about 4 - 5 years ago. I followed Greg's updates and developments through the versions. As interest and dialog about the speaker system increased through the last few years I continued to listen to many panels and decided I needed to audition the current GT offering. Spending 2 consecutive days in NJ listening to the system in Oct 2018, I found what I have been looking for these last 9 years. I believe Greg's proprietary panel and cabinet construction result in a purity of sound I have not previously experienced. Coupled with the SI200 subwoofer system I now have a full range speaker that articulates and complements all the various genres of music I listen to regularly on CD and vinyl: small and large orchestral, jazz, rock, opera, solo instrument, choral. To address whitecamaross' show music concerns, I know Steve and Greg promote interested listeners at shows to bring their own music on which to audition their speaker system. I will be attending Axpona and will be bringing music to do just that. I look forward to meeting other interested music and audio enthusiasts to learn about their experiences and to share the experiences that led me to the GTA speakers. |
allvinyl, Thanks for your feedback on the GT Audio line source speakers. They sounded good at Steve's house. I was never that impressed with any Acoustat from the X to later models. Most of the problems were because of the large curved panel of the X which rolls off the HF. Despite the superior electrostatic technology, the Acoustat X as a large curved panel is one of many poor implementations of stat technology. I feel that the GTA planar magnetic and ribbon drivers in line source configuration are a much better implementation of their technology, so the GT speaker is superior. They are a better implementation than any Maggie. Greg deserves to succeed and dethrone Maggie. The GT imaging is tall, of course, but it is more true to life and not bloated like from a large wide panel. |
In response to all vinyl and Viber6 comments we would like to point out that unlike other Manufacturers that are constantly making the consumer buy an upgraded or new model which essentially forces you to sell your speakers for you to buy the upgraded model - when you purchase a GT AudioWorks speaker system you do not have to worry about this as this is not a concern as Greg offers a lifetime warranty on any and all future upgrades.The speakers are designed in such a way that you simply remove the back grill cloth which are attached by a series of screws and you have access to the drivers which are mounted on the vibration free frame all you need is a screwdriver to remove the 6 foot tall planar driver. The frame is then sent to Greg To retrofit the new driver. And yes I personally guarantee that we are very receptive to playing any requests or music that anyone may bring into our room at Axpona. We are looking forward to having Zanden Audio Providing their world class amplifiers, preamp, phono preamp cabling and room acoustics to our exhibit. We are also going to have the top-of-the-line Kronos turntable spinning vinyl Please stop by room1430. Look forward to seeing you all. |
WC, Looking at the Axpona exhibitor list for speakers I recommend Klipsch (hopefully they have the newest K-horn), Muraudio, Sanders, of course GT Audio and Martin Logan. Sanders are hybrid ESL’s that use flat panels. At a home in Virginia I heard an older model that was perhaps superior to the ML CLX in clarity, although at a NY show in a small closet-like room they were bad and rolled off in HF. Muraudio is an intriguing ESL hybrid design, used personally by Merrill W, the designer of the Element amps I am waiting to hear. I don’t understand what they mean by a point source, since the narrow panels are strung together like SoundLab in a medium size curved pattern. I don’t like omni speakers which usually are rolled off in HF because the drivers that are directed away from the ear have less HF heard than the drivers pointed at the ear, so there is time smearing. On the positive side, the electrostatic diaphragm is only 3.8 microns, which is thinner than the 6 microns of my Audiostatic. So Muraudio is worth a listen. As for people, be sure to meet Bill Parish of GTT Audio. He has the YG Acoustics speakers which are good but I think the Be technology of the Personas is better. I have seen people in his NJ home from far away. What a beautiful home with many rooms of goodies. You probably would like his Audionet electronics, which are sweeter than the neutral Mola Mola. He prefers Audionet. |
I received feedback from a few people about yg speakers and the feeling is the same about them: they just don’t engage you with their sound. Same thing many people have said to me. I have my own opinion about them but it was a very brief listening session. I need more “seat time” with them. Last night I listened to more music through through the Logans and I don’t have the desire to put the personas back. It’s a great speaker in terms of technology and design but that means nothing if they can’t perform in the field. Think of it like this: What good is the space shuttle with all the technology and research it has if it can’t take you to the moon? It’s a failure |
viber6 The panel of the Acoustat X is not a curved panel, but 3 of their original 3 or 5 wire flat panels in an angled configuration. This was done to deliver better lateral dispersion and widen the 'sweet spot'. The next couple of models, 3 and 4, had basically the same config only on a pedestal that elevated the panel to a more reasonable listening position height. Again, flat panels in a angled configuration. Then the 1+1 and 2+2, again with flat panels and stacked on top of each other and not angled laterally. It was somewhere in their production life that the Medallion transformer was introduced to allow users to use whatever amp they chose. I still believe one of the best systems I've ever heard was at Dan Fanni's house in NJ when he had his latest version of the servo amps driving a pair of 2+2s(no Medallions). Those amps with the full wave transformers we had custom built were, and still are, KILLER good! I lost interest in the next series and especially after Jim Strickland was out of the company. |
@whitecamaross Let me know if you get some speakers that are 90-95 db efficient. I would love to send these Granite Audio 864 SR Monoblocks to try out . I have replaced the coupling caps with the Jupiter Copper Foil paper in Wax caps . They take these amps to a whole new level. They can run KT-88, 6L6GC (1 of my Favs) ,6550A, and EL34 output tubes. They have BIG Transformers for Great Bass and Dynamics .. They weigh 30lb each. I actually have them up for sale here on Audiogon IMHO,they are impossible to beat for the money. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9d8ed-granite-audio-864-sr-tube Also on usaudiomart.com I honestly think that you would like them a lot. I really did not want to sell them .They are my favorite tube amps , for sure.Unfortunately finances force me to sell . I have to buy a new pool liner for my Inground Pool and I am a little short on cash. ...about $5K for the new liner. |
@allvinyl, The GT Audio Works panels look to be extremely good. I'm curious as to whether they would work well with some REL S5 subs, instead of Sound Insight OB subs, due to space constraints with many rooms not being able to support the Sound Insight subs. What I'm hearing thru my Reference Headphone setup on YouTube Demos of the GTA3r is amazing clarity and a nice meaty sound coming from the panels. Looks like a fine choice, and truly SOTA. This is coming from a ML Montis owner with 2 REL S3 subs running in stereo for bass foundation. |
bigddesign3, The GT audio panels alone from my listening at fixer's house have accurate bass down to about 40 Hz or so. They were entirely potent for bass for almost all classical music--rarely did I hear the sub contribution. Maybe they don't have deep bass in the bottom octave, but the midbass accuracy from the tall panel makes low output deeper bass nonessential. |
WC, I wouldn't call the 3F a failure, since you yourself described its midrange as 10/10 of any dynamic speaker. You just happen to prioritize big dimensions of sound, so any small speaker of the future even if has the most accuracy/resolution won't satisfy you. But you may want to discover more of the words in a new song or subtle differences in the metal shine of cymbals that are presently buried in the recording mix. Will you turn to the 3F or the Neo? Bring such recordings to Axpona, and see if the Muraudio or Sanders stats reveal more information than the Neo or 3F. Meanwhile you have made a valuable contribution in introducing us to the virtues of Be drivers in nearly full range. Thanks for that. I wish horn manufacturers like Avantgarde would develop compression drivers using Be. Small diameter compression drivers amplified by horns are the most accurate dynamic drivers. My father's 1960 Altec horn used a one inch driver in its throat to cover a wide range of 500 to 22KHz. |
Cant perform in the field""" how absurd to even go from the Neo,s to 3F and even expect you'd be happy. Using your own analogy WC going from a Bentley to a Pinto. A fair fight would be the Tidal La Assoluta, Von Schweikert Ultra or Evolution Accoustics MM series. These are the speakers you should be comparing to. |
In response to bigddesign3 concerns about the size of the servo subs - we offer a smaller system with only 2-12 inch woofers per side. The servo sub woofer system is modular by design which means that you can add as many additional modules up to six per side. The 2-12 inch servo subs are only 15 inches across and maybe 32 inches in height. See below videohttps://youtu.be/aqz0s9QSgcU |
Finally caught up on reading the thread over the last couple months... what a great recent journey with the Personas. WC, your description between the Neoliths and them was fantastic. That’s the kind of review that I’d love to read in Absolute Sound... too bad they can’t compare products the way you can. |
Brhatten: magazines have overhead, employees etc. They can’t afford to tell it like it is. I suspect if I had a YouTube channel and was 100% real about my findings, manufacturers would have a problem with it. At the same time, I’d love to open up about how I’ve been scammed through my journey as far as purchases are concerned. I’d love to say this dealer did this to me or that to me etc but you all know I can’t. Thats the one thing I’ve not been transparent about here. I’ve paid for stuff and never got a refund or anything delivered to me. Maybe one day I will roll out of bed and share such experiences with you all. Who knows. |
whitecamaross I’d love to open up about how I’ve been scammed through my journey as far as purchases are concerned. I’d love to say this dealer did this to me or that to me etc but you all know I can’t ...What is stopping you? |
Stopping me? im trying to recuperate my money and throwing someone under the bus here wouldn’t exactly help me recuperate my money. I prefer to try to fix things the easy way without drama, but patience is something that runs out. You can only try to work things out for so long until you’ve had enough and then you’re forced to put the hammer down. |
2 Sides to every story, he said she said, wouldn't want to incur all the lawyers expenses to prove im right and hope those expenses are paid by the defendant on top of any compensation I am owed. Lawyers are the only ones who win. Sometimes its best to suck it up and find a way to let it go. I got burned for 4K on Audio Mart..sent the money and got nothing in return. Know what?? It was my own damn fault for being too trustworthy. Lesson learned |
