Stick to the gryphon Diablo for those speakers unless you can afford the luxman 900u amp and preamp. Try not to mix and match with the luxman 900u amp. Use their 900u preamp if possible.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
WC, Your description of the Odin speaker cable as having more articulation/separation and more decay than the plat 7 means that the Odin has more accuracy and resolution. But "huge sounding" with larger images is a characteristic of less accurate sound, as in the case of tube amps with bloated images, an exaggerated case. This has been my experience. We'll see as time goes by, but so far it seems like both Odins go for accuracy/resolution, which is desirable. I feel you made the right moves with the Odins. |
Folks, this thread has never really gotten off track. Some have offered opinions about equipment, room set up, cables, etc. nothing wrong with that. WC has kept the thread going with his review and progress in acquiring equipment, adjust room set up, speaker set up, cabling, etc. I'm enjoying the journey. I, however, don't like the attacks and trolling (is that the word?). there is absolutely nothing wrong with people's opinions. Whether or not they have actually listened to equipment. They still may have a technical discussion and offer their opinions based on previous use of a manufacturer's equipment or based on their knowledge of the technical design of the equipment. Either is still valid. please stop with the attacks on some that have opinions. If you don't agree or like it, simply ignore it. I don't agree with WC's opinion regarding whether a person has actually heard a piece or not. That doesn't not invalidate educated and informed opinions. I do, however, respect WC's opinions and his view point. I can respect another's voice but still not agree with it. No reasons for attacks. I most certainly didn't agree with the person's opinion in the video clip. As an Electrical/Electronics Engineer, I can tell you that there are certain circuit designs and lend to certain flaws or characteristics that are not optimal. Nothing wrong with expressing that knowledge without hearing the piece. I won't however, bash the piece. As many are finding out, it may not be the piece of equipment at all that's at fault, it may be power condition, cabling, downstream equipment, etc. lots of factors. So, to simply say, that piece of equipment is crap is totally defeating the entire purpose of threads like this. I read earlier a poster say he/she heard the Neolith speakers at a show and they sounded bad. Well, no "they" didn't. The setup and room sounded bad to him/her, not particularly the speakers. What other devices were used in the setup and what was the room like? Anyway, I've been on Audiogon for quite some time and enjoying this thread, but I have a real problem with people that insult and attack and bash. For small companies, sometimes all it takes is one bad review or reviewer to end that company. It could be bad set up, bad downstream, equipment or a terrible reviewer. go see the outstanding movie ("Chef"), and see a perfect example of a food reviewer and chef going at it. I know personally that Parasound makes quite nice equipment. On par for the upper top of the line high end equipment? probably not, but bad equipment, not close and good hardworking people work at Parasound. I don't agree with Viber at times, but I respect his/her opinions and you have to admit, he/she has excellent background and valid opinions. same is true for many others here. I'm enjoying WC's journey and I appreciate all the people that have participated in the thread and I have to say, I'm learning so much from you all. enjoy |
There’s nothing wrong with stating an opinion, but CLEAR that this is based on what you heard or were told. The real issue here is when people give strong opinions making seem like they’ve owned the equipment when in reality they’ve only seen it on pictures. They’ve never even seen the equipment in person. |
WC’s journey has been awesome and enjoyable. Nowhere did he say he set out to make everyone happy. He is just sharing his experience, talking about it and getting feedback. One thing I would say is this thread really does need less insults and bullying. Not to mention absolutes when discussing something. This almost always leads thread derailing. |
Sooooooo I just plugged in the ref10 and threw it to sink or swim and it is now an entire different animal. The speaker cables have created more of a focused image and made the presentation totally different. The dac was sounding probably better with the platinum 7 speaker cables when used as a preamp but the ref10 seems to sound better with the Odin speaker cables. I still am getting slight shoutinness from the speakers when cranked up. Things are still a little bright right now. |
minor, Excellent balanced points you make. If we were all wealthy and retired with lots of time, it would be desirable to personally hear everything in own homes. Even then, it is not possible to hear everything, so choices have to be made. How do you make choices? A strong theoretical background helps. Knowledge of the house sound of pieces you have heard at home suggests in a general way what the sound of an unknown piece by that designer may sound like. Honest helpful contributions here would say whether you tried it at home, or whether you are doing intelligent speculation based on reviewers you have come to trust. To save space, we shouldn't have to create a lawyeresque description of these reasons every time we post. It should be assumed that everyone is sincere and not trying to mislead anyone. |
I’m going to not mislead anyone right now and say that I just realized I had the nordost speaker Odin cables connected the wrong way.... they are directional cables and unfortunately I wasn’t told. I had both cables connected the opposite way. The end that is supposed to go into the speakers was connected into the amps. Not sure how much of an impact this will have on things or if anyone in here has done a trial by using directional speaker cables and connecting them the other way. Will I notice a difference in the sound ? We shall see... |
WC, I thought of a great analogy that further explains my statement that larger images are characteristic of inaccuracy. Imagine an attractive woman whose waist is 22. She looks great in a perfectly fitted outfit that shows off the details of her body. Then she puts on lots of sweaters and a large furry overcoat to go out in subzero weather. Now her waist is 40-50 and looking at her in the coat, you cannot see the details of her body and she is not as attractive. What the Odin and other accurate components give you is the leaner indoor look of her in the nice outfit. The less accurate components make her look larger, but certainly less detailed. These less accurate components create a fuzzy overcoat kind of halo around the core sound, enlarging the image but smearing it. |
So with that said, do you all see WHY my impressions of these cables weren’t great? That’s HOW MUCH my ears are dialed in with my equipment. I know when something comes in and misses a beat. I can probably tell you if something is out of phase by listening to a song for 10 seconds or less. I have been playing this game for long enough that I can tell you when something isn’t right for a component (for the most part). For instance, i didn’t like the B&w d3 tweeter with luxman. It sounded too aggressive at times and I fatigued quickly. I did not like Mark Levinson with my Sonus Faber cremonese because they fall flat on their face. I love panels with tubes in the mix or class A. I hated classe audio and electrostatics. I liked pass labs with electrostatics and hated it with Wilson audio. This type of exposure to different components allows me to know when there’s something missing or not there. This is what keeps me going and going in order to keep adding an extra ounce of this n that. I got my neoltihs pretty good given my room dimensions. That’s my bottleneck at this time. That said, I’ve heard big rooms with nice gear and I’m not going to say I was blown away. It will take a very well thought out system for me to acknowledge it as vastly superior. So far, the only systems that seem to be kicking a$$ at shows are Wilson with arc gear or agostino. |
Hey WC, just a word of encouragement... I acquired a set of used Valhalla speaker cables last week. I don’t know how long it has been since they were last used, but I have had them playing 24 hours a day, nonstop since last Friday. Tonight, they finally sound broken in, although maybe there is even more goodness to come! In any case, I know it’s worse with brand new. Be patient with those babies! Also, pay attention to both cable direction and how you have the jumpers connected. Nordost has a white paper on this on their website. Different wiring/jumper configurations has a huge impact on the sound. Btw, yes the Valhallas do sound incredible, can only dream of the Odin! Good luck. |
WC, Glad you found my woman analogy useful. In my experience, no. 18 or 16 zip cord has focused the sound much better than any other cable, even the Nordost Frey 2 speaker cable. Many people say that zip cord has deficient QUANTITY of bass, which is true, and that zip brightens the sound, which is also true. But the overall clarity, snap and sparkle of zip is an overwhelming advantage for me. We had this discussion a few months ago, with someone recommending the Mapleshade cables. That designer feels that large cables fatten and smear the sound, consistent with my observations. Mapleshade is fairly cheap, and zip very cheap. Try the zip for speaker cables--you have nothing to lose, and you may be pleasantly surprised. |
WCSS, This is just a suggestion..... take the time out to test these new Odin Speaker cables against your previous favorites..... but test by taking the new Odin Power Cords out of the system and putting back the original cords. Put the ARC Ref 10 back. So basically you will just be testing the difference between speaker cables. You got too much crap going on at once.... and the understanding of what each piece is doing is not possible. Each cable, whether power cable or speaker cable from Nordost with have a filter like effect on you equipment. And as such, conclusions need to be taken one at a time. The Odin Power Cords are definitely, in a way filtering things, and I'm not sure that they are doing things in a good way (just an opinion). It also makes sense to have your speaker cable figured out first, before the power cords. You may not beat your WireWorld speaker cables with the Odins, but you will be able to tell the difference much easier with regular power cords. I'm on the fence with what these fancy power cords actually do IMO. Especially at Odin prices. You could be bi-amping those Neoliths. But that is just me. I'm also the guy that loves his 8 gauge speaker cables, so I could be the crazy one. |
So I’m listening to the Odin 2 speaker cables right now without the Odin powercord in the mix right now and I gotta be honest, the platinum 7 sounded far deeper and wider. Right now, at this very moment, I’d take the platinum 7 wireworld speaker over the Odin 1. Yep, you heard it from me. The Odin 1 pc on the dac with the rest being platinum 7 sounded SPECTACULAR here. Just clean sounding, zero harshness and huge HUUUUGE. If the Odin 1 speaker cable doesn’t morph TREMENDOUSLY by next weekend, then I can say this experiment failed me and synergy begins to be the name of the game. PS. I’m playing with the block audios in Class AB and yes they don’t sound anything like in class A. I remember some people saying that they heard zero difference in the Plinius sa103 in class a or Class AB. Well, let me tell you with these block audios you’ll hear quite a difference. It’s like in Class AB the amps are on 6 cylinders and then in Class A they are a v12 twin turbo engine. |
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WC, Please go back to my analogy of the woman in the big overcoat. From your description of the plat 7 speaker cable, it is like the woman in the overcoat--deeper and wider, but less accurate/detailed. But the Odin is like the lean woman the way she really is with an attractive thin layer of clothing. I believe you need to get accustomed to the Odin type of sound, both power cord and speaker cable. The Odin is less full, but more detailed and accurate. That said, the Odins may not be best value for the money. Try zip cord as I mentioned to see if you accept the zip type of sound--lean, clear, snappy, sparkly, tight but not full bass. To use a painting analogy, the Nordost Frey 2 speaker cable in my system was like a fuzzy impressionist painting, whereas zip is like a clear photograph. Impressionism is great visual art, but its philosophy is obviously different from accurate portrayal of the world. One day I will try the Mapleshade cables which may expand on the benefits of zip. |
jetter, I agree that the Sanders amps would be great to try, especially with Roger's 30 day free trial. I never heard them at home, but reviews are very favorable, with sound described as accurate and balanced. This description is similar to that from a nice man who spent a whole day driving me from NJ to Virginia to visit his client with one of the Sanders electrostatics. It was a complete Sanders ESL system with the ESL amps. It sounded great. From my reading of the Sanders site, the more powerful amps for dynamic speakers are also suitable for ESL's. |
WC, After added hours with the Odin speaker cables, running in the "correct" direction, have things changed from your observations a day or two ago? And if so, it would be interesting to learn if the changes are due to added hours on the cables or to the direction change. Does returning the cables to the "incorrect" direction result in any changes? Other than playing with the shield, if there is one, tying it to the '-' line at one end of the cable or the other, or perhaps a "network" on one end or the other, designating a speaker cable as "directional" sounds more like hype than anything. Perhaps a resident technical guru here like almarg could inject some value here. |
From Nordost website: Are Nordost cables directional? Yes, Nordost cables are directional. This is especially true for single ended (RCA) interconnects as the shield is connected at the source or output end only. How can cables be directional?When cables are manufactured they do not have any directionality. However, as they break in, they acquire directionality. |
That being said I don't think the Odin1 speaker cables will sound their best until they are FULLY broken in. If I spent Odin1 money I would definitely have the retailer break them in on Nordost's Vidar (break-in machine) for the suggested 210 hours. Whether WC decides to do that or not is completely up to him. |
Jafox 2-16-2019 Thanks for the mention, John. I agree with your statement 100%. I say that despite a variety of "explanations" of wire directionality that have been proffered by some manufacturers and certain frequent participants in cable-related threads here and elsewhere, relating variously to crystal structure, how the wires are drawn in the manufacturing process, the direction in which noise may "prefer" to propagate in the wires, the breakin effect asserted in the statement by Nordost that was quoted above, etc. As I see it, when it is not practical or possible to obtain a quantitative perspective on explanations that may be offered for a claimed effect, that would provide some indication of whether or not the effect may be great enough in degree to have a reasonable chance of being audibly significant, there is virtually no limit to the explanations that can be conjured up and asserted. And consequently such explanations amount to speculation at best, perhaps tinged with conflict of interest in the case of some manufacturers. As an aside, btw, I **can** envision that a symmetrically designed cable conducting digital audio signals might sometimes exhibit directional properties. Digital audio signals have significant frequency content at tens of MHz, and higher in some cases, which conceivably could mean that minor mechanical differences in how the wires are soldered or otherwise attached to the connectors at each end might result in differences in the degree and timing of reflection effects that occur at those RF frequencies as a result of impedance mismatches between the the components and the "characteristic impedance" of the cable and connectors. Which in turn, depending on which way the cable is connected, might in some circumstances affect the waveform of the signal that is received by the destination component to a degree that contributes to timing jitter at the point of D/A conversion. Also, kudos for suggesting that any such findings be verified by re-trying the "wrong" direction, which would reduce the possibility that a perceived difference may have resulted from extraneous variables such as differences in the warmup state of the equipment, reseating of the connectors, etc. My perception over the years has been that it is all too common for audiophiles to attribute perceived effects to the wrong variable, as a result of inadequately thorough methodology. Especially when it comes to effects that are seemingly implausible. IMO. Best regards, --Al |
Interesting read WC and others, Nordost Odin 2 speaker cables 😋😋Wow a lucky guy you are WC ! Off the thread if if I may. I just bought a used mint pair of Dynaudio Special 40 to try. I could not resist as I got a good price, and always wanted to try a pair of these. Fun little monitors. That 28 mm soft dome tweeter ( Esotar) is impressive. Smooth and resolute. ( it plays down to 1000 hz, strong neodymium magnet behind a 28 mm dome) I can say it is one on the best soft domes outhere, along with the Scanspeak ring dome one used on Wilson speakers. I think Magico and B&W beryllium and diamond tweets are a bit better. But still, very impressive how engineers have come to make such good sounding sota soft domes tweets these days ! |
The point Viber raises for clarity vs. depth is an interesting one. I have been trying to figure out how to balance the two for a while. I pinpointed this down the the interconnect to the amp for my setup. I have been using AQ Earth copper interconnects and the soundstage, depth, and bass were amazing but noticed the vocals were always a tad muted and classical interments (piano, string instruments) never sounded "sharp" or realistic. Picked up some older AQ Niagara (equivalent to the current Wind) silver interconnect cables and it was the reverse. Amazing clarity but lost some of the mid-bass and soundstage decreased. I generally prefer the Niagara because of the amazing transparency, and realism of the vocal and instruments. Some say the higher end AQ silver interconnects (Wild and WEL in particularly) solve this issue by adding far more balanced and controlled bass. But I haven't heard either yet to compare. FWIW, from my limited experience, it seems like components can use bass to give off a sense of soundstage sometimes at the cost of clarity and transparency. In all honesty, I go back and forth and times can't figure out which sound I like better. I want both, next up for me are some higher end silver interconnects... |
@viber6, I use speaker cable from the Car Audio Industry. KnuKonceptz Karma Kable Twisted 8 Gauge Speaker Copper Wire OFC (8 feet). I supply my own connectors. Currently I have Banana to my ML Montis Speakers, and Spades to my Krell KSA-200S amplifier. These speaker cables allow for a very strong bass, and are just a little easy on the highs. Seems that the thinner versions of this same cable will give you just a little bit more up top. I have been using this brand for so many years, that I don't remember even when I started to use them. The construction of these cables for the money is a hidden secret that gives you high end OFC tinned copper for little money. And they perform. In the car stereos I would build.... 8 guage was used for the subs. I have seen many a subwoofer cable burn up, from being too small a guage. Shooting 500 watts with almost 1000 watt peaks out of my Krell amp to the Martin Logan Montis does quite well with this 8 guage speaker cable. And also my system likes to be played at low and medium volumes, and these speaker cables shine when these lower levels are in play. Very pleased with the sound quality. But I look foward to testing some new speaker cables in the future. I'm spending time just listening lately, and not doing any tweaking till 2020. For about $75.00, you can build a set of these at 8 ft length. I just finished last year with my Morrow Audio cables for XLR and RCA, Coax and REL Subs. |
I need to give these cables a fair shot before I try to do anything. I’m going to take them back to my dealer and he will burn them for 210 hours. Time will tell what is going to happen. That said, I’m shocked how amazing the oppo 205 sounds when streaming music using roon and the Odin powercord on it. It is unreal how that cable can turn a 1200 Blu-ray player into something that can compete with far more expensive sources. |
I have the Oppo 203 and use its HDMI input . The Oppo 203 has 2 HDMI outs (same as the 205). One is dedicated to Audio only The other does both . I run the Audio only HDMI out(of the 203) to the MX151 the other HDMI out (of the 203) goes to a 70 inch 4K Sony TV.. I also use a 4K HDMI switch ahead of the 203 .This way i can input (Dish ,Roku Ultra,JRiver Media Center etc) All are HDMI out of the Source to the switch , HDMI out of the switch to the HDMI in of the Oppo 203 (Oppo is set to Bitstream). I am also running a digital coaxial out of the Oppo 203 to the digital Coaxial input on my McCormack DAC-1 Deluxe. I am using the Analog out of the McCormack DAC-1 into one of the Analog inputs on the MX151. This gives me a lot of choices for sound .,especially since the MX151 will only allow analog inputs in order to play different sources in Zone A and Zone B .. like ..at the pool outside . Zone B is the pool for me I can use either the MX151 DAC or the McCormack DAC-1 Deluxe DAC. Is that as clear as mud ?. I still have not yet tried the DAC of the Oppo 203 or Analog outs. |
eziggy, Yes, I totally agree with you about the clarity vs. depth issue, all the examples you gave. To me, the fundamental feature of music, in a single word, is clarity. Music is a language, and we all realize that with language, clarity is everything. I enjoy taking a walk and being startled by the unexpected sound of any instrument or voice. Where it comes from (depth, etc.) is much less important than its basic sound in all its clarity and impact. In recordings of various instruments on the real soundstage of the studio or concert stage, there is the natural depth of the recording, but in a euphonic system with less clarity, the depth is exaggerated, images are enlarged but with that halo of fuzziness I talked about with the analogy of the woman in the overcoat. |
bigddesign3, Yes, I have found that thinner speaker cable yields a more treble oriented balance. It seems obvious that a thicker cable transfers more energy which is desirable. The thinner cable would transfer less energy at every freq, but perhaps the handicap to the bass is more than the handicap to the highs, so it appears that the tonal balance of the thinner wire is brighter and more detailed, because more of the higher harmonics are emphasized. Maybe almarg can help with some sensible science to back up our listening impressions, rather than the pseudoscience of many cable designers. Ultimately, each listener will decide what he wants based on his subjective ideals. |
Vince Galbo upgraded and refreshed my Plinius SA100 and it is Fantastic! Vince told me I’d get the detail and refinement of the SA103, plus more slam in the bass—we just a-b both amps and the modded SA100 is better than the SA103!!! i have 12 gauge dedicated amplifier and a second front end 12 gauge power lines to my audio room. As the previous person mentioned, this does wonders for any amplifier, especially Class A amps!!! But also help my Pioneer Elite Class “D” have much better bass. |
Viber6 2-16-2019 Thanks for the mention, Viber, but that involves so many variables, at least potentially, that I would not want to speculate as to why that may be true in many cases. Those variables would include not only the characteristics of the cable, such as resistance, inductance, capacitance, length, "characteristic impedance," the thickness and dielectric absorption characteristics of the insulation, skin effect (the importance of which, btw, though not necessarily insignificant, tends to be over-hyped by many manufacturers, as can be shown by calculation), but just as importantly the interactions of the cable characteristics with those of the speakers (especially their impedance characteristics over the frequency range), and with those of the amplifier (especially its output impedance, how much feedback it uses, and perhaps its bandwidth). Also, given all of those potentially significant variables and system dependencies I would be cautious in extrapolating general conclusions about such things from individual experiences, even if those experiences are particularly diverse. Not saying it can’t or shouldn’t be done, just that I would be cautious in doing so. Best regards, -- Al |
almarg, Thanks. Yes, the "sound" of any cable ought to be able to be described in terms of objective characteristics like resistance, inductance, capacitance, length, characteristic impedance, insulation thickness/dielectric absorption, skin effect, as well as comparative amp/speaker parameters. Nordost gives most of these specs for each of their cable lines, so it should be possible to predict in a general way, the sound of each of their cables, subject to the unknown characteristics of the amp/speaker. I was just asking if you could take a simple cable like zip cord with known specs at different gauges, and approximately predict that bass frequencies are reduced more than high freq for thinner zip. You can make up some numbers for some amps or speakers you know, so you can estimate the effect, or just use a pure resistor as a model for a speaker (Maggies are said to be a pure resistive load). If this is still not possible for you to predict this, I thank you and respect your insight. |
Viber6 2-17-2019No, I still wouldn't want to make any such predictions. Also, given the many variables and unknowns I cited in my previous post, as well as the fact that perceived tonal balance can be affected by more than just frequency response (e.g., by low level distortions of various kinds), I would expect that any correlation between gauge and perceived frequency response/tonal balance would be a loose one at best. Best regards, -- Al |
Dasign, Yes, cable winding geometry and its consequent E/M field pattern is the big unknown factor. Perhaps this can be described in terms of familiar measurements of inductive and capacitive reactance, which vary with frequency. My knowledge of physics is rudimentary so maybe someone can help. Thanks to Al for his honest input. When Nordost and other companies publish their specs, they might be referenced to a particular freq, but what is missing is how these specs vary with freq. If we knew this, then maybe it would be much easier to predict the "sound" of a cable, instead of getting frustrated with system variabilities, asking the dealer to break cables in for 200 hours, etc. We are all in this random jungle of endless trials for cables, like prospecting for gold when the odds of a bonanza are slim. |
My Knuconceptz Karma SS (8 gauge) has 860 strands per side and is twisted. What I like is the cable is all OFC copper with silver tinning throughout. You can buy the Karma SS from 16 gauge all the way down to 8 gauge. I like the twisted cable design personally, but I am open to anything that has great sound. I will stand by my statement that a larger gauge cable can transfer large amounts of power, along with more bass. |
Viber6, inductive and capacitive reactance varies per frequency as you indicated. It would very difficult to guess how a cable assembly would sound, even if a manufacturer would share this information. The ideal cable would have zero reactance and infinite conduction level (zero resistance). Supra conductivity is possible but not at a commercial level... I am currently using Acoustic Zen Absolute silver cables (XLR interconnects + biwire speaker cables). Acoustic Zen provides inductance/feet as well as resistance/ feet specification on their speaker and interconnect cables. If all manufacturer would publish these infos, it could potentially give you an idea about the design quality, assuming we are looking for the perfect conductor cable. But numbers do not necessarily provide good sound...An audition of any cable is required + matching these cables between active components is also a must, as WC is currently experimenting. |
dasign, Right. What are the tonal characteristics that you hear with the Acoustic Zens? It seems that since we cannot correlate sound with known specs on any cable, auditioning is necessary. Variations in specs and distortions with frequency may be a major part of the explanation of sound differences. In effect, cables are like equalizers. At least with EQ, you can see what you are manipulating, but with cables you are blindly twiddling the dials albeit in a subtle manner. |
