I agree WhiteCamaross, you really need to get equipment broken already or have friend run it in for you for electronics and speakers. Or take dealer demos to try first so you know what the sound will be when yours is broken in.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
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Alright guys, i decided to plug in the krell 403e via unbalanced connections (krell does not recommend balanced connections when using tube preamps) and although i get a little bit of hum when i am about 2 feet from the speakers, Here are my impressions of the gs150 with 50 hours vs krell 403e: 1. Krell has far more bass control and sounds a bit faster on the bottom end. 2. Krell has about the same soundstage as gs150 3. Gs150 may have a slight advantage on certain materials. That said, i had my wife do a blind test and she chose the Krell 403e. She said it felt as if things sounded "larger" lol. I will say that on certain songs, there may be a little more air and last ounce of detail on the gs150 that may be missing on the krell, but again this depends totally on the material. Most people COULD NOT tell these apart. This is either a high praise for the tube amp because it can keep up with the monster krell or a high praise for the krell because it can produce damn near tube sound when connected to a tube preamp. And now for the final news... As some of you may know, i had the luxman 900u combo and i really enjoyed it with my 803d3 speakers, but since i now own sonus faber cremonese, i am VERY CURIOUS how that set up will sound with my speakers so i just pulled the trigger on the luxman 900u combo again and it should be at my door next week. boy oh boy... THIS WILL BE VERY INTERESTING NOW. |
I have been keeping up with this thread almost since it's inception. There are not many places you can get an unbiased review of so many different types and brands of audio equipment on a weekly basis from the same reviewer! I have been looking to upgrade my amp for quite a while but have found it impossible to find a dealer who has the amps I'm interested in, much less my speakers to play them through. I had 4 amps I was interested in and thought would mate well with my system, room and musical tastes. I only found 1 dealer who would ship me (at my cost if I didn't purchase the amp) one of the amps I was interested in for an in home demo..... I finally decided to PM whitecamaross and ask for his advice. I (in detail) described my system, room, musical tastes, listening levels and what I would like to improve on over my current amp. I gave him my list of amps I was interested in (all of which he has reviewed in his system). After talking (email and phone) with him MANY times he told me because I listen at low volume levels, the amps I thought would sound good in my home would have to be turned up loud to sound their best. He suggested the Plinius SB-301 mk2 for my application. He had recently had that amp in his system, loved it and was ready to sell it. BTW he had a couple of the other amps I was interested in but didn't think they would be a good match for my needs.....I ended up purchasing the Plinius from him and couldn't be happier. It is clean, powerful, detailed and has control in the bass that I didn't think was possible with my speakers, and all at low to moderate listening levels.... Exactly what I wanted! Thanks whitecamaross for your help and advice. |
Thanks for the feedback Ron. I'm glad you liked my input and my recommendation. Having owned tons of amplifiers, I can usually have a pretty good idea of what an amp might bring to a system. I've heard many amps in my home and understand the pros and cons of each for the most part. Please keep me posted of how the amp progresses. As I stated above, most amps will sound best after a few hours of use. I think the only amps that don't need a warm up are class d amps. |
@auxinput: I'll keep this short, since this is whitecamaross' amp thread. I had the Krell S1200U 3D, and it was my second favorite processor for both movies and 2ch, when no EQ is applied. First would still have to be the Theta CBIV. With RoomPerfect, the McIntosh jumps slightly ahead of the Krell (in my room). With Xtreme D-2 dacs, the CBIV is actually a touch smoother than the Krell - kind of the opposite of what you found. I now have the Xtreme D-3 DAC, which does make it more dynamic. I did not find the Krell or the Theta shouty or bright or thin or harsh solid state in my room/setup. If anything, I found the XMC1 (which I also owned for a period of time) a little bit thinner and not as smooth sounding. The SP3 is liked by a lot of folks, and I have not seen it described as you have described it. Perhaps there's something different with the rest of your system and/or room that is contibuting - so, getting back to the subject of this thread - what amps are you running with your setup? Dave |
Dave, i don’t really run many amps in home theater anymore. To be quite honest i started this journey analyzing home theater amps and sometimes their 2 channel performance as well but using a processor as my preamp. Anyhow this journey has evolved into 2 channel simply because home theater for me has taken a back seat. I enjoy a good movie with great sound, but when you have a 14 month old sleeping upstairs, i cant enjoy subwoofers exploding dynamicly like they should and i can’t have action scenes vibrating my entire room. Long story short, my home theater experience has really diminished due to my daughter. I can’t watch movies during the day because i work and at night i hate having to watch a movie listening at low volumes. I don’t quite enjoy movies when i have to really turn down the volume. This is WHY i shifted over to 2 channel because i can certainly enjoy good music at pretty much any volume. I dont need a subwoofer for it either so the bass created by my speakers isnt of the same depth as what subwoofers do. Maybe one day i will go back to watching movies, but for now i occasionally watch movies with 2 front speakers and 2 surround speakers (no center or subs). |
@thezaks - I have Emotiva XPR-1 monoblocks for my left/center/right/sub. Emotiva XPA-1L monoblocks for left/right surrounds. At the time I had the Theta Casablanca IV, I believe I was using Hi-Fi Tuning Gold fuses in the amps. Using B&W Diamond D2 speakers for fronts. The Emotiva’s are very strong and fast amps. Very high resolution. The stock XPR-1 was actually soft sounding and a bit cold (weird for being soft, but true). A fuse replacement fixed this. I am running Furutech rhodium fuses in all pieces of equipment now (including the Krell). I also, replaced / soldered in new fuse clips on the XPR-1 power board because the stock ones were really weak. The new ones have rock hard grip/contact on the fuses. These were the larger 6x32 spring metal fuse clips. When I upgraded to B&W speakers, I didn’t have a good amp from my selection that worked well with this. I used Crown CTS600, Crown CTS2000, and Channel Island 200W Class D monos. The Channel Island were actually the best sounding with the B&Ws. Then I tried an Emotiva XPA-1 monoblock and found that this beat out all the other three. The Emotiva had enough current to handle the B&Ws and the resolution and impact was just so much higher! Historically, I have used B&K 7 channel (too warm!) and Sunfire Cinema Grand (dull sounding). I don’t have as deep of pockets as whitecamaross, so I can’t justisfy higher end amps such as Pass Labs, etc. If I ever thought about upgrading, it might be to try out the JC1 monoblocks. However, these are FET devices and I’m not sure that I would like that slant towards warm/FET sound. It’s hard to beat a 1,000 watt differential monoblock with huge power supply, 36 transistor devices. I may look at replacing all electrolytic and film caps on the amp boards and input board. |
I had one of the XPA amps, and they made too many budget cutting decisions on that line. A Halo A21 I brought in to compare blew away the XPA amp. Those XPR and XPA-1L amps are probably better, but they are both long out of production, something Emotiva keeps doing. Introduce a new line, and then cancel it within a couple of years. They need to build their lines, not cancel them. |
Dave, that Odeon continues to be the best multichannel amp period. Don't waste your time looking for a replacement because there's none. The only way to improve upon that amp is by buying monos for all channels or a 2/3/2 amp combination. Yes the krell 402e/403e/402e would kill the Odeon but look at the amount of money and the amount of electricity plus heat. In a single chassis multichannel amp, nothing beats the plinius Odeon. I don't care where you look. NOTHING. No ATI, theta dreadnaught (yuck), classe, parasound, bryston, nad, Cary audio, etc. That is one hell of an amp. |
UPDATE: i just wanted to let everyone know that the deal with the person i was buying the luxman pieces from fell through so i won't be getting luxman at this time. That said, this opened up funds for me to possibly buy something that ALOT of people have praised to me: BELCANTO BLACK SYSTEM. I am not 100% certain, but i may end up selling my audio research reference 6 and audio research gs150 if i decide to buy the black system. It would be a total shift for me to go from all tubes to all class d. However, the bel canto black system is supposed to be the elite in terms of class d. Nothing is supposed to surpass it. |
Update on gs150: So as the break in continues, i STILL find the krell 403e connected to my reference 6 preamp sounding damn near identical to the gs150. I mean, i am closing my eyes and try to find a difference and MAYYYYBE at times and depending on the song i can actually a slight tiny difference: a little more depth in the sound and at times a tad more sparkle, but again this is splitting hairs here and i have to actually be looking for these differences. So far, my early assessment of tube amps -this gs150 to be specific- is that i am not impressed and not willing to shell out 1300 dollars for an entire tube set every 4,000 hours when my solid state amp is damn near identical when connected to the same source and same preamp. however, i can see value in a tube preamp more than tube amp. I am telling you all, your system needs to be 200% dialed in for tubes in order to really capitalize on what tubes can do. Please note, this is my early assessment of my amp at 60 hours. My preamp has 493 hours so it is already broken in. |
Ok, i will make things a bit interesting here and for the first time gather input from everyone. As some of you may know, i own the audio research reference 6 and the audio research GS150 amp and sonus faber IL Cremonese speakers, aurender n100h streamer and gamut cd3 reference cd player. So far i find it good sounding (amp has 50 hours or so, preamp has about 490 hours). That said, as i said above, i have the opportunity to purchase a bel canto black system and trade in my audio research set up. My questions to you all are these: 1. Would you make the switch from the audio research above and go into the bel canto black system? if so, why? 2. Do you think this switch will enhance my listening experience? how so? 3. Is this a mistake in terms of sound quality? Please elaborate with this question. I am very curious as to how many of you follow my thread and answers to these questions will certainly help me make a decision. You are now in the drivers seat and can either make me move into the bel canto black system or push me away from doing so. I look forward to your responses guys ! |
The chance of your finding anyone who has had both the ARC gear and the Bel Canto with similar speakers is slim to none. I own the same pre and virtually the same amp (Ref 150se). I believe that generally speaking, the resale value on the ARC gear will be stronger. As you yourself have mentioned, Class D amps are like computers, the technological advances with Class D continues to evolve and what seems to be state of the art and beyond potential improvement now is quickly proven to be temporary and incorrect respectively. You have also mentioned your distaste for having to replace tubes. I believe you have overstated the cost-even from Upscale Audio which tends to be a bit pricier than the competitors, $1000 is more than enough to replace all the amp tubes and they should last two or even three years of average use. You revealed the small, no make that big fortune you have spent on this journey to sample every top amp known to man-in comparison $330/yr is chump change. Some still hate the concept and I understand but believe it to be misguided. The car you drive loses a little life every year, so does just about everything in your home (appliances, carpet, etc) and while I gather you are young, guess what, you are declining physiologically every day after the age of 18 too. Sorry to be a downer, but just ask your doctor. |
@whitecamaross 1. I would not. But this question is about you, and you most certainly will. Whether it's to the Bel Cantos, I cannot predict absolutely...however, given your penchant for moving forward with amps, the probability is high. As for my reasons why I would not...I like the ARC sound and performance. Perfectly satisfying for me. I don't know the Bel Canto Black line, so I have no reference regarding it. 2. If by 'enhance your listening experience' you mean learn about the comparative sound between your current gear and the Bel Cantos, the answer is Yes. As for 'how so:' it's your Raison d'etre, so to speak. 3. Probably not. At this level there are just very specific preferences. All the best with your choices. |
fsonicsmith: i appreciate your feedback an reasoning. You are correct, i did state that class d is the fastest to depreciate followed by tubed gear. That said, although we all know the black system is 50k, my cost would be far less than that. I would be buying "just right" if i were to make this move. I had thought about the black system many months ago and did not pursue it, but i did have the chance to bring home the black integrated and i thought it was incredible and THE BEST BASS I HAVE EVER HEARD IN MY LIFE BY FAR!!. One thing we all need to remember about tubed gear; The value with tube gear is less and less due to the fact that many people try to negotiate you on the price based on the hours you have on the tubes. This creates a hard position for most people because buyers will always pull out the " oh i gotta buy tubes for all this pretty soon which will cost me x amount of dollars etc" so then you have to begin to adjust your price accordingly. In short, tubes and class d gear do not have the same "appeal" for many reasons: 1. tubes have a cost of ownership associated with it 2. Class d technology changes all the time David: Interesting feedback as well. That said, you are also only giving your input based on what you have heard which i totally understand. As i mentioned above, i heard the black bel canto integrated and it was incredible and my connection said the black system will stump all over the integrated and that it is a whole new animal. Some of the reviews absolutely praise the black system. They claim there is no other class d system that sounds like it and let's not forget this system has been out since 2014 and it is still a current model. Belcanto states that they have no plans to change it because they can't find a way to make it better. I appreciate all of your responses though and you have given things to think about! Keep the feedback coming! |
Honestly, I'd try the JR 925's instead of the Black. Or, try both - one at a time :-) I'm sure the belcanto black would have tremendous bass. What I would worry about - is the bass dry, how are the highs - are they too tight - not providing enough air, decay, extension, etc?? Trying it out would be the way to find out for sure, but those would be my concerns going into it. Dave |
I have owned and loved the Rowland M925 monos for severl years.... Incredible authority, and the amps with the most organic and complex frequency spectrum from deep bass to high treble that I have ever listened to. If you have the patience to break them in fully -- 1K to 1.5K hours -- they will reward you with amazing music without any compromise that I know of. These are power houses... They generate 430W per side over 8 ohms, doubling into 4 Ohms, with a peak current of about 45A per side. A Power Factor Corrected rectifier in each mono feeds a 2500W multi-regulated DC supply.
I have logged my usage/break-in observations about M925 on Audiogon at:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experiencing-rowland-m925-4-chassis-reference-amps
Further information on M925 is found in the Rowland knowledge base at:
http://jeffrowlandgroup.com/kb/categories.php?categoryid=212
Feel free to ask me specific questions about these amps.
Saluti, Guido |
whitecamaross, The only advice or opinion I have to give you is,I and many others would like to read a honest straight up review on the black system and I believe you would be the perfect guy to do so. You said you have heard the black intergrated and it gave you the best bass ever how would the separates compare overall.I'm sure they will have killer bass as well but what about the mids and highs. I have heard a Devialet 440 paired with magico q3 speakers with a very high end analog setup and I will tell you I wasn't impressed at all. I've read lots of good info on the M925's but I have never heard them,but I know Guido really loves his from reading several of his posts,they might be worth a shot. I have full confidence in you that you will figure it out for sure. Kenny. |
Hi guys, so after doing a bit of research and deliberation as to what my next move will be, I decided to no pursue the belcanto black system at this time. I decided to give another pass Labs a shot with my sonus fabers. As you know, I really like pass Labs but felt the x350.8 was not the right match for my speakers so I decided to pursue pure class a power this time around and purchased a pair of pass labs xa200.5 monos along with the matching pass labs preamp. As many of you know, this is supposed to be one amazing pair of monos with tons of power and class a power on tap. Having owned the xs150s, im clear as to what the pass labs xs sound like so it will be very interesting to try the xa200.5s which have even more class a than the xs150s. Yes, pass labs is coming back again so I’m really looking forward to seeing how a full pass Labs set up is going to do against the audio research. Remember, pass labs class a is "supposed " to sound like tubes without tubes so I will be really testing that claim in about a week when I have an all class a vs tubes shoot out. Stay tuned! |
whitecamaross, "Remember, pass labs class a is "supposed " to sound like tubes without tubes so I will be really testing that claim in about a week when I have an all class a vs tubes shoot out." I think this will be a great shootout and I'm sure you will sort this out, but IMHO a few of the First Watts give the most tube characteristics of any SS amps that I've heard but Offcourse you have to match with compatible speakers. I've enjoyed this thread from the beginning and wish you the best of luck, Kenny. |
Merrill Veritas is an excellent mono amp in all respects. Here is my take on Veritas: http://positive-feedback.com/Issue68/merrill_audio.htm I heard Mola Mola Kaluga monos at RMAF... Also wonderful music makers, although the pair I heard, having had only a couple hundred hours of break-in, still exhibited minute traces of treble intermodulation, which is typically absent from amps based on NC1200 once they are fully mature. Guido
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Hi guys, i picked up a Mcintosh mcd550 sacd player today and i was doing a real A/B comparison between the mcd550 and my oppo 205. I will tell you one thing, it was ridiculous how mediocre the oppo 205 is as a cd player. I know it is a different price point, etc, BUT WHY do you hear that it is supposed to be so amazing and besting other reference pieces? i just HATE the hype that magazines give these things because the reality is that it is all a bunch of BS. There were a couple of reviews on the oppo 105 and how great it was and that it was being used a reference cd player by some, etc ,etc. This couldn’t be further than the truth. I am here doing REAL A/B comparisons with both. i have the SAME CD with the SAME SONG playing on both and connected my reference 6 preamp. Both are exactly at the same db level and i just switch inputs back and forth and it is crazy to hear how much better the mcintosh is. I am already planning a full night worth of cd music tonight. The reason why i share is? well i just want EVERYONE to know that NO AN OPPO BLURAY IS NOT A REPLACEMENT FOR A REFERENCE CD PLAYER. Don’t make that mental mistake that by spending 1200 dollars you have a cd player that is better than other true stand alone reference cd players. The oppo 205 is a great bluray player and that is where it ends. |
Hi @whiteCamaross, I am not surprised.... May I add that if you tried a higher end Esoteric single box player such as the current K1, or the older K-01X, or the even older K-01, you are likely to discover that they outperform both Oppo and Mac. I had the original K-01 in my system a few years ago, and it was outlandishly good. G.
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Mac CD Players are hardly high end. OPPO 105 (not 205) is the best all around multi format player in its price range. HDCD compatibility is not on the 205 and is essential for many Classic Rock Titles released 15 years ago in that format. An Audio Research 9 CD or KRELL Cypher would smoke the Mac....and a High End Esoteric would obliterate it. Surprised the OP didnt do his homework on CD players before purchasing a Mediocre Mac deck. Even a OLDER PS Audio transport would have been a better choice. |
whiteCamaross, I submit "we" must be careful stating things as absolutes. We hear things based on our system(all of the components), room, and preferences. You've recommended components that I've heard in my system and I have a completely different opinion. It doesn't mean I'm right and your wrong. I don't own the Oppo 205 or McIntosh, but I'm sure there is someone out there that may prefer the Oppo 205. |
Are you running the GamuT as a cdp or are you using the digital out into the Oppo or some other dac? I realize that you've had many other amps in the same system but something has to account for the perceived brightness other than the GS150. I am sorry to sound critical, but I think you could do much better in terms of your digital front ends though I certainly think the N100H is great- just the rest....I tried to warn you of this earlier in this thread. Don't shoot the messenger but it is apparent you rely far too much on reviews. Reviews are utter bird-cage liner other than from a very select few reviewers. You need a WW Platinum Starlight 7 USB with your Aurender-there is NO substitute-and you need a top notch DAC of which there are any number-you can trust those reviewed by John Atkinson. A tip on DAC's-pick one that has a robust analog output stage-those that have beefy linear power supplies and can be used as excellent preamps. You don't really want to use it as a preamp, but if it has excellent preamp functionality than it is bound to have an excellent analogue output stage. I've mentioned my AMR DP777 but there are many others. |
