My first tube integrated: which one to get?
Hello Audiogoners. I have had only Solid State equipment for my entire life. Recently, I have been considering a purchase of an integrated tube unit. My budget is around $4.000 USD. I have been looking at two units in particular: Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III and the Cary Audio SLI-100. I’m having trouble deciding on which one to purchase. I was hoping the Audiogon community could advise me as to which one to get.
My current system consist of a pair of Emotiva XPA-100 mono blocks, Parasound P6 and a Music Hall 9.3 TT with an Goldring Erotica LX cart. My speakers are Focal Aria 926. I have a smallish room, 11’7” (3.56m) x 15’7” (4.78m). I should also note that I’m planning on getting a DAC after my integrated amp purchase.
Both tube units I’m considering provide 100 watts/channel in Ultralinear but the Rogue Audio is switchable to triode mode at 60watts/channel. The Rogue unit is of a KT120 configuration whereas the Cary unit is a KT150 design. The Rogue has an onboard MM/MC phono stage albeit solid state. The Cary has no phone stage therefore I’ll need to get some sort of step-up phono stage from my MC cart. The Cary unit, normally a $6,000 plus system is on sale for $3700. The Rogue unit is $3400. I listen to manly rock from the 60s to current and some classical. However, I have been enjoying my friends jazz collection he gave me, inspiring my to seek out more contemporary jazz recordings.
My question are:
Should I even consider this purchase?
Will I experience the upgraded tube-quality sound I’m hoping for?
Should I consider instead a tube-based preamp to go with my 250watts into 8 ohms mono blocks?
If you recommend the pre-amp path, what sorts of things should I be paying attention to?
How important is it to have the ability to switch to triode mode? I understand that acoustic jazz sounds much better in triode mode?
Is there anything else that I should be considering with this possible purchase?
I should also say that I don’t mind used if I can achieve a bigger bang for my buck. Buying either the Rogue or the Cary new provides me with a generous 3-year warranty.
There you have it. I look forward to your input. Thank you all in advance for your help.
@lradder Cary products are made in America. I’ve owned several Cary Audio products since the company’s inception and they make their products in North Carolina. Given their product line has expanded significantly over the years, I can’t definitively say that ALL their products are US made, but they’ve been producing in the US since 1989. Certainly their tube products are built domestically and likely their SS products as well. |
I briefly owned a Rogue Audio Cronus III and loved the hell out of it. That model Cary amp I have no direct experience with, but Cary is a fabulous company; I own their SLP-98 and their CAD300-sei integrated... both keepers. Cary stuff is well-built and leans towards that classic warm, tube sound in their gear.
Might be most cost effective to start with a tubed preamp though. Also, bear in mind power tubes put out a fair amount of heat, so if you're averse to heating your room up a bit, that's probably a +1 to the tubed pre. |
An interesting option is a single-ended 48 watt per channel 805 tube amp called Line Magnetic LM-5081A for $2500 on eBay. Some US distributors may exist. A good sounding tube amp needs the right preamp tubes and this amp has the best. tubes, The Line Magnetic should use a Tung Sol 6SU7 to replace the 6SL7 and Sylvania 6SN7 GTA to sound best. |
When I first got back into stereo, I bought some Vienna acoustic Mozart’s and wanted to try out tubes. So I bough a rogue Cronus integrated and a Cary sli 80. I found that the rogue sounded much better out of the box, but the Cary was sexier (the rogue sets it’s non-power tubes down, which might be good for better protecting them, but part of the allure of tubes is watching them glow in the dark). Once I spent a lot of time rolling the cary tubes, I got it to sound as good as the rogue. I then sold the rogue. |
Stretch to $5.5K and get the new AR I/50, wonderful amp I heard at my AR dealer in town, its 50 watts at 8 ohms drove a pair of Dynaudio Heritage Specials with only 85dB sensitivity easily, although it was a smallish room. Also buying AR ensures good warranty service and resale value. Kinda like why I buy BMW for example, apart from them being good cars. |
I spent the last 35 or so years listening to SS only and last year I ended up in the same place you are now. I looked at a bunch of "starter" tube integrateds, probably same stuff you came across too: Cary (used), Quicksilver, Rogue, Raven, Decware, Jolida/Black Ice. Primaluna, Line Magnetic, etc. Also got curious about Belles Aria and Croft Phono Integrated along the way. Ended up with a used Conrad-Johnson CAV45. No pre- or phono, so not good for your situation. I am responding to your question about whether it's worth it. In general, I feel more engaged in the music. Hard to put a finger on with my 50+ year-old ears, but undeniable. Could also just be that it's interestingly different from my previous SS amp (Classe, which I also really liked). Anyway, I'm really glad I took the leap to try tubes and didn't go to my grave wondering about it. I concluded I would be happy with tubes or SS, but that right now I prefer the tubes. I also think it's worth mentioning some non-musical factors that influenced me: tubes are a fun, interactive niche in the world of 2 channel audio (itself a niche at this point); CJ is a local business for me (ease of service in a hobby where this is inevitable); the gold faceplate reminds me of my childhood wandering around Myer-Emco in awe; and the CAV-45 itself has a very minimalist design, which is my style. A bit of a digression, but one or more of these factors could tip the scales for you if you feel comfortable giving weight to psychoacoustics. |
As the purchaser of the AR VSi-60 @runwell mentioned from TMR, I can agree this is a smart way to go to see if your particular set up matches with tubes. The AR is indeed a fine piece of equipment, and can now be had at great value. The looks may or may not be your cup of tea. I went from SS to a Heaven 11 Billie hybrid integrated, which did sound quite good, especially for the price. But my Sonus Faber Signums were asking for more. The less-than-half quoted power of the AR brought more life to the speakers than the Heaven 11. And I'm a vocal / midrange guy so the pairing was good. (Not to say I might not want to keep experimenting!)
Good luck. |
Was in the same place a few years ago and decided to try a tube preamp with my Mac MC250 which is tubish sounding. Got a budget Chinese tube pre from YS Audio/Audio Expressions and a CJ PV 10. Both were eye openers and really increased my enjoyment especially of jazz, acoustic music, and my favorite female vocals. I ultimately went in a different direction but primarily because my wife was uncomfortable with the tube operations and living in HI the heat was kind of rough. Likely not as bad as a tube power amp but it made its impact known. If you like your power amps, I would suggest trying a pre first. BTW I did hear the CJ45/50 in a store in Memphis and LOVED it. It was superior to the Cronus and much more of the tube sound. The Cm seemed to me to be a SS amp with soft edges. I also liked the Quicksilver but felt it would not work well with my Ohm Walsh 2s. But both of those are quite nice and give the tube experience. I also have heard Raven Audio and Primaluna and would rate Raven highly. I am not sure of their prices these days but the unit I heard at a friends in NY was very nice playing thru Kef LS50s in a small NYC apartment. Good luck. |
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Nice self-own @lradder You provided the information that Cary Audio vacuum products are designed and built in a 10k square foot facility in Raleigh, NC (it's in the USA) and the digital products are designed in both Oriental, NC (also in the USA) & Hong Kong and digital products (and only digital products) are built in Hong Kong. This thread is about vacuum tube amplification. |
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@lradder are you sure about that? I just picked one digital unit (at random), the DMS-650, and according to the review it is made in The USA. I guess I could go through all the reviews of all Cary’s digital products or send Cary an email and ask them. And although I am sure Rogue makes a great amplifier, aren't they on a circuit board as opposed to being wired point to point (as Cary amps are)? Do you know off hand where those circuit boards are made? |
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Since this is your first tube amp, you probably don’t know what type of tube sound you prefer… something more lush or something more dynamic.. there are a lot of different tube types that sound totally different. I would recommend that you get something flexible that allows you to experiment — like the PrimaLuna Evo 200 Integrated. The PrimaLuna has Adaptive Autobias that allows you to swap the EL34 output stage valves that it comes with for a variety of other alternatives. As well as running valves you might ordinarily expect to be able to swap in place of EL-34s such as the KT88/6550, KT90 and KT120, it can also accommodate other options including the 6L6, 7581 and over-sized KT150. So you can really tailor the sound to your liking. |
