Most forgiving high end speaker 10k-20k?

Any body heard from Jeffkad lately?

Sounds real, sorry, been working like crazy, traveling all over east coast. Have dropped in to read responses quickly but no time to chat.

I'm going to give a listen to the Sonus Faber and the Zu Def Mk4 (if I can find it to listen to). Like some others have stated, while I would likie to find some forgiving speakers, I dont want to be put to sleep. I still want musicality (toe tap inducing),tonality (the wood in woods, the resonance) and a forward "they are in the room" sound (not recessed, mid hall, and similar descriptions). If I dont get the last word in accuracy or detail, I'm fine with that.

Personally, I think the audio community, manufacturers and buyers alike, have become way too obsessed with absolute accuracy and to-the-last-degree detail. In fact, I'll go so far as suggesting that "absolute" accuracy is unattainable (at least at reasonable price points), and maybe many confuse pristine clarity without substance or body as some form of this accuracy. This is of course just my very humble opinion (no need to flame me if you think otherwise). Perhaps the opposite is true, maybe I confuse a little added distortion or midbass hump or tubiness/loose bass as "musicality" when in fact it just represents pleasant inaccuracy. It is what it is, but based on what I'm reading in mags, I do believe we are in an accuracy/clarity/detail fad of amp/speaker building. Again, JMHO.
PS- Sounds_real, now dont take me to task if I disappear for awhile, lol)

Jeff if you choose a speaker that suits your own taste (over the longer term) you have made the right choice irrespective of the level of detail or accuracy it truly has. It does not matter what others think. In my opinion though, I do think that people listen too much to leading edge detail rather than also listening within the body of notes. An example for me is hearing the richness of tone and micro dynamics within single notes being sung on female vocals. To me, this level of detail adds the emotional content. I would also add that I believe that as you get speakers that are more revealing, they add excitement, and your great recordings become better, but you hear some new flaws, your mediocre recordings are more listenable but are more exposed, and some poor recordings become unbearable. Overall you enjoy more of your collection -- my opinion.

I AGREE WITH MAPMAN regarding the underlying basis of the question- i.e.- what really well made speaker will sweeten up poor recordings? well, what is a "poor recording"? there's muddy, there's thin (like an old Charlie Parker album),
there's ear-bleeding treble, boomy bass, hiss(sss), background noise, etc.
then there's poorly MIXED albums (what do you propose can correct that?).
now i know of some systems that just sound pretty decent on just about everything, but they are generally called "MID-FI" and they play popular music the way most people like to hear it- ample BASS and a wide-open upper-midrange and treble. you simply do not have to pay a great deal of money for a system that plays MDNA (madonna) or AEROSMITH, this level will also do justice by ok-recordings of jazz and even some classical.
so who needs HD-Audio anyway? if you lust after a level of resolution that makes you believe you are "there", then you have to take a critical look at each piece of the system (plus your room) that gets out of the way of a good recording. and there is an abundance of good recordings, SACD, internet, or just properly engineered in the 1st place. but IF such a well-designed system doesn't turn a terrible recording into a clean clear balanced one, then just adjust your ATTITUDE towards what your real goals are in spending your hard-earned money on a stereo. it's THERE you will find that you really WANT
Realism, or you would much rather get something that "does the job, period".
of course back in the 60's and 70's most of the equipment fell into MID-FI or "HI-WATTAGE MID-FI (that cost a little more but still had the same design).
so either way you couldn't lose; it all just depended on how LOUD you wanted
to play your music. but the sound quality was pretty good overall. i am no expert on when and why things became more "complicated" with the advent
of Quad Speakers and Levinson 25 watt "class-A" amplifiers. that some people had the money for this gear was apparent. i just didn't know anyone who did for a very long time afterwards, or why they would even bother.

Agree with the Harbeth recommendation, but Spendor should be auditioned as well. Spendors and tubes go together very well especially if one is looking for a less analytical sound than the typical high-end speaker.

Hesson11: Hey Bob, I agree about the tone controls. In fact, maybe that's an answer all by itself. Maybe all we need is old fashioned "tilt" or "presence" boost to make the unlistenable once again listenable, even on a very revealing, unforgiving speaker. McIntosh preamps always had tone controls, no? The new Classe CP-800 preamp has tone controls AND parametric EQ, AND bass management. Perhaps the answer is to keep the ruthless speaker for all it does with great recordings and just EQ the bad/mediocre ones?

Thanks, Jeffkad. But I'm afraid that, among audiophiles, we are doomed to remain a minority! Given the wide range of sound quality among my recordings, being without tone controls just makes no sense. Not if you love the sound of music more than the sound of equipment. I also couldn't live without a balance control. Recording L/R balances are all over the place.

-Bob

Many loudspeakers are undersized with to small a cabinet with to narrow a baffle and to small a driver for proper bass or mid bass. Plus we have made much progress in tweeters. So you end up with a thin sound that emphasizes the upper range. On great recordings this may just add extra air but if recordings poor this over emphasis can cause listening fatigue. If loudspeakers are of proper design ie not over compromised
for WAF and profits and the music has merit even if recordings poor the music should still be enjoyable.

FWIW I think a well executed tone control, such as an equalizer or, better yet, a simple three band (bass/mid range/highs with mids centered on 1500 to 2000 hz) could be just the ticket for you and many critical audiophiles provided that you use it in a tape loop where you can disable it with the flick of a switch. Down side on an equalizer is that many audiophiles would be moving sliders about continually trying to optimize every recording (anal?, perhaps. Nah not an audiophile:-).

Hah, newbee, I think your right. Audiophiles would be EQ'ing every song, LOL!!! However, I agree it could be an answer to the issue at hand. What is the so-called "presence" region frquency-wise?

Jeffkad, I consider the presence region to be between 1000 and 3000 hz. Broadly increasing or decreasing the presence region, without touching the highs or low mids/bass can make a large difference in prospective without touching the bass or highs the latter of which has a great influence on soundstage size and depth.

Newbee, that's probably as good a range as any. I doubt there's any "official" definition of the presence region, but it may extend a bit beyond 3,000 Hz. I've seem some old Yamaha receivers with specified presence controls of something like +/- 13 dB at 3,000. So at least those controls are CENTERED at 3K. I'm sure other receivers have slight variations.
-Bob

Yeah. Bring Mariachi Band. Highs to die for and the bass
that rattles windows. Everything under 2K.

Jeffkad

I remember our room at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest in 2007 I believe. People would come in and I would say "Welcome to our oasis of Music". Kind of funny but the guys at positive-feedback had been in quite a few times, a year later they started to hand out awards called Music Oasis or something like that.
If you get to Denver look us up. As they said in positive feedback "sound to die for"

Honest1, I would very much appreciate if you could email/call me re your audition experience, it would help me to know which system you heard.
it does sound like they were not broken in. there was one pair which the owner sold this year after having for almost four years and they had only put about 12 hours on them! unfortunately they were non-believers in speaker break in.... the current owner broke them in and loves them!
anyway it does sound like something was amiss or they were not broken in?
thanks,
lou

I'll send an email. We used to be able to contact members through Audiogon, but it looks like they've eliminated this feature.

Yup, no more persoanl contact with members. All contact has to be publically displayed....it sucks, but that's the way it is now.

Yes, "it" does suck (the new A'gon).

Jeffkad, this may be late to the party but you only describe one attribute of speaker sound you are looking for. Many of the recommendations above would fit the bill. As for Daedalus sounding bright, no way. I heard Dodgealums and they sounded excellent. In my experience the source probably is the culprit in how you system sounds. For example, I recently repaired a laser on a Rega Apollo CD player. I hooked it up in my system as a transport only using my Museatex BiDat and I was stunned on what happened compared to the same Rega stock model. The original Rega is what most call musical, easy to listen to but lacks focus and resolution and note definition. The repaired Rega just blows it away. Sorry I did not compare them as CDPs. Just goes to show you how a simple source can change everything.

As for some of the recommendations, Harbeth have fantastic mids, Vandy speakers have a more laid back type of sound, Verity are excellent speakers, Dali laid back and a little polite/boring but musical, etc. Each has their own set of strengths and weaknesses. I purchased a pair of Meadowlark speakers based on opinions here on Agon and they were very cheap. I thought they sounded good but not excellent. I found the transmission line bass to boomy sounding. I could hear the box coloration of the speaker. Once I replaced the source with a better CDP, they simply lost the bass issue and the speakers disappeared. I was probably going to sell them prior to this. There is a lot of system synergy going on and you have to understand each component and what it has the ability to do. Personally the source is the most important part of the system. If the source can only produce a 5 out of 10 sound than that is the best your system will sound. If the source is a 10 and the rest of you system is a 5, you will get the best 5 sound out of your system. Fortunately for me, I build and modify audio components and most audiophiles have never heard what a system can do. They play around with tubes, cables, power conditioning, room treatments, etc., to adjust the sound in their systems. I used to do that and will it makes your system better; it does not get you to the level I am talking about and hearing. I say much of my experience is dumb luck, trial and error since I repair and modify gear and get to hear what those changes make and learn why they sound better or worse.

So if you want a better answer to your question, tell us more about the total sound you are looking for and what you don't like about your system.

I hope this was somewhat helpful.

Happy Listening.

Hello John,
So why not sign every post with something like this?

Bill
audiofeil@verizon.net

I have heard many.

They all say, "I am sorry you wasted your money!'.

Speaking of EQ and Sonus Faber loudspeakers, I recently heard some Cremona Ms and they were fabulous. They provide a lush, musically involving and detailed presentation that puts a smile on your face and makes you want to spin recording after recording. The cool thing was that this very high end presentation was being powered by a $999 Marantz PM8004 integrated amp. This amp is neutral, quick, well-controlled, and sounded like an expensive stack of components. But to top it off, it has 3-band EQ and a balance knob. The bass control centers on 50 Hz and the treble on 15 Khz, so they can shape the frequency extremes without intruding on the heart of the music. The midrange control centers on 900 Hz and has only +/- 6dB of range. Playing with it can bring more presence to recessed recordings and more depth to forward recordings. There is also a Direct button to bypass tone and balance controls. TAS gave it a rave review. I'm seriously thinking of dumping a rack and a half of accumulated separates and getting one.