Mobile Fidelity 24k CDs

@68pete 👍. Thanks Pete. 

tattooedtrackman

Pose the question over at PS AUDIO Paul might be better at a answer.

tattooedtrackman

SACD decoding is owned by Sony. I believe original for multi track-(movies). I would think that the SACD would be better, but it really comes down to the original recording. I think the gold plated CDs are suppose to be a step above the original red book CDs. But i could be wrong????When SACD is done right it is very good. I think it will come down to your equipment and ears. More on SACD here hiresedition.com

@tattooedtrackman Yeah the only way of knowing is by listening.

Thank you once again. I really appreciate it. Also the only reason I am buying them now is only because of the remastering. And I definitely can hear a difference in some. The ones that r sound extremely good are all the Queen and Pink Floyd. 

@tattooedtrackman The only reason a MOFI CD would sound better than the original Redbook CD is because of the remastering. When most anyone buys a MOFI CD it’s because of the remastering. The only other possible reason would be to get the SACD file of that recording. Keep in mind that these original Redbook recordings are converted to SACD, they’re not recorded that way and there is legitimate question as to whether converted files to SACD offer anything other than an oversized file.

@68pete  ok. Thanks for that information. Question.  Are MOFI 24k CDs the same as SACD ? Are they both considered the same as far as sound quality? Except that the MOFI 24k will play on a reg cdp ?  I apologize for sounding stupid. 

@goofyfoot Thank you very much for taking your time and explain this in more detail. You really seem to be extremely knowledgeable about this. In your opinion do the MOFI 24k cds sound better to you than the reg Redbook cds ? 

Esoteric makes a SACD/CD players that will read what ever layer you tell it to read. SACDs our a hit and miss some sound better than red book CD and others do not. You can listen to the red book layer then change to the SACD layer and pick what sounds better to you. I do not believe the Esoteric player will change on the fly. You have to go into the menu and make the changes.

First off, I think too much emphasis is put on whether the CD is gold. If you were to burn that gold CD onto your computers hard drive and then rip those same files onto a plain silver CD and play it on your CD player, you wouldn’t notice any difference. The advantage of a gold CD is that it has a life expectancy of three hundred years. But to answer your question, the first MOFI hybrid SACD was in 1999. Here’s a citation from their website, “1999: Mobile Fidelity releases its first GAIN 2™ Hybrid SACD, Duke Ellington's, Blues in Orbit. Mobile Fidelity's main distributor declares bankruptcy and MFSL Inc. closes its doors.”. And then in 2003 under new ownership, MOFI expands its catalogue of SACD’s and here’s a citation from their website, “2003: The highly successful Ultradisc UHR™ SACD series is expanded with releases by the Kinks, Aimee Mann, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Isaac Hayes, Dave Alvin, and Sonny Rollins”. Now in my opinion, whatever MOFI or any other company calls their specific products means absolutely nothing. If MOFI calls their CD’s Gain or Ultradisc II or whatever, it’s only purpose is in identifying their releases according to the their date and their order within MOFI’s catalogue. Analogue Productions has the same arrangement, i.e. Ultra High Quality Records and that tells us absolutely nothing about the production process.

@goofyfoot  When u say MOFI are u referring to 24k MOFIs ? I just purchased recently about 20 or so MOFI 24k cds. Are u saying that they are red book on the later years ?  What years are u talking about for the new MOFI cds ?  I just want the very best recording cds for my Rega ISIS CDP. That’s why I was am purchasing the MOFI 24k cds. And no I am not interested in buying a SACD player at this time but IF I am one day I will definitely keep that in mind  that plays ONLY SACD. And btw I only listen to CDs. Nothing else. 

@tattooedtrackman Generally, I would opt for the SACD layer. Please keep in mind that more recent MOFI Cd's are SACD hybrids so they have an SACD layer but if you don't have an SACD player, then you'll be listening to the Redbook Cd. With older Ultrasound MOFI releases, your solely paying for the remaster/remix as there was no SACD back then. Personally, I only own a DAC but if I were in the market for an SACD player, I would get a player that strictly plays SACD and not Redbook Cd's. This is because it's difficult to make a good sounding player that can play both.

@goofyfoot   Ah. Ok. Thank you very much. Ok. 1 last question which are better sounding the SACD or the MOFI 24k. Or are they basically the same as far as sound. 

@tattooedtrackman You're correct, your Rega will not play SACD's. Most SACD discs are hybrids, meaning that there is a standard Redbook Cd layer that the regular Cd player (Rega) reads and an SACD layer that only an SACD player can read. Both layers are on the same Cd so If you put one of those SACD hybrids in your Rega Cd player, it will play the standard Redbook Cd layer. If you had an SACD player and placed the SACD in your SACD player, it would play the SACD layer. The fact that the disc is a hybrid and contains two different files has no affect on the sound quality of ether layer.

@goofyfoot  I didn’t know there are SACD players. So my Rega ISIS CDP can not read a SACD ? Or it can but only read the redbook layer. I do have 1 SACD it’s an Aretha Frankin and I did notice that it was rather bright with treble. So what u are also saying is the MOFI are similar to the SACD but they can be played on a reg cdp to take advantage of the sound quality? Sorry if I’m not making sense but this is so new to me even though I have been buying cds since they first came out. Also is one better than the other ?( sound quality ) SACD vs MOFI 24k ? 

@tattooedtrackman The MOFI Cd's are SACD hybrids, meaning there are two layers on the Cd. One layer is a Redbook Cd for standard Cd players. The second layer is SACD for SACD players. A standard Cd player cannot read the SACD layer. Occassionally SACD's aren't hybrids, meaning that only the SACD layer is on the disc but this is becoming more rare and usually only applies to certain labels. The SACD file is Direct Stream to Digital or DSD and it is at least twice as large as the standard Redbook Cd. Downloading DSD files and playing them through a compatible DAC is essentially the same as playing an SACD in an SACD player.

Can anyone tell me what the difference is between SACD and MOFI 24k. Is one better than the other. Prices are about the same depending on artist. 

@stuartk It does match up perfectly with the Quads but I bought the amp first and then chose the speakers. The entire stereo sounds excellent but yeah, the ASR is my binky.

@goofyfoot 

Thanks. I read the Stereophile review of the ASR  -- intriguing piece!  

Did you choose it particularly due to synergy with the Quads or...?

@stuartk So above is a list of just about everything I can think of. Power cables and headphones are next on the list. Probably Sennheiser HD 800s are priority and that way I can enjoy more rock and pop.

ASR Emitter Exclusive II amp, Bryston BDP 3, Ayre QB 9 Twenty DAC, ASR power cable, Hi Diamond Speaker and Interconnect cables, Wireworld Platinum Starlight USB cable, Thorens Modified TD 160 MK1, ASR Mini Basis Exclusive phono amp, AT33 mono cartridge, Audioquest interconnect cables, Quad 2905 ESL speakers, PS Audio passive line conditioner, Cruz First Maestro outlet, various Akiko Audio tuning sticks both large and small, Herbies Audio accessories, lots of mono vinyl, lots of CD's, DSD downloads on external SSD. Apple M1 Mac Mini, iPad, iPhone.

@goofyfoot 

OK; now you've got me wondering what else comprises your system, aside from the Quads...

Care to elaborate?

@goofyfoot

Speaking of ECM records, Tord Gustavsen Trio is one of my favorites. NativeDSD.com is a great source for DSD files.

@lalitk and @stuartk, not meant as a comparison in any way but yes, I have a very nice system. Lately, I've been appreciating the quality of somewhat recently recorded ECM redbook Cd's and DSD files. I've said this often but I believe we're in a digital renaissance.

“the same level of refinement as some MOFI and most Analogue Productions do.”

+1, @goofyfoot

I have been carefully adding releases from them. Chad Kassem have been masterfully restoring / reproducing recordings from golden era.

Also recommend titles available in XRCD, UHQR silver disc format. Expensive as some of them are in $40-60 range but worth every penny if you have a nice system to take advantage of ultra high resolution recordings.

@goofyfoot 

Yes; that out-of-pitch Dona singing is pretty awful. However, beginning around '76, I think (I could be mistaken) her singing was much more on key and I enjoy her contributions to the band, from that point on.

"Personally, I’m excited from time to time to see a recording that has undergone a process of remastering but in the end, the price tag is a very big factor in whether I’ll pull the trigger"

Yes. Same here, but if I'm honest with myself, most of the remastered versions of favorite recordings I end up buying are at best, moderately better (if at all -- many are simply different) compared to original versions. It's rare that I encounter a remaster that offers a dramatic improvement. The fact that this does occur, from time to time, is what keeps me buying them. Of course, now that MoFi is (for me), out of consideration, there are fewer to choose from. I will continue to keep an eye out for Analog Productions releases. 

" I do like many of the Rhino remasters but as a whole, don’t hold the opinion that they reach the same level of refinement as some MOFI and most Analogue Productions do."

Perhaps my system isn't capable of revealing such "refinement". . . or else, we are listening for/prioritizing, other aspects of the sonic presentation. 

@stuartk When Jerry passed, I stopped following the Dead altogether with exception to the Fare The Well concerts in SF. Prior to that, I saw them just four times starting in 82 as well as the only JGB show ever in San Diego. I’ve always had extraordinary responsibilities towards my immediate family so I couldn’t just pack the car and follow them around the country. Anyway, I’ve liked various aspects of each era though I do have issue with those shows where Donna wasn’t given a monitor and sang out of pitch. Rhino has the rights to all GD recordings as far as I know. I do like many of the Rhino remasters but as a whole, don’t hold the opinion that they reach the same level of refinement as some MOFI and most Analogue Productions do. With Audio Fidelity remasters, the original tapes are unaltered with exception to cleaning up hiss and noise. I’m inclined to recommend those remasters to folks who want the same mix and levels they remember from the originals. Also, not long ago, I downloaded the Bill Evans Trio ’Waltz For Debbie’ DSD 128 file from High Definition Tape Transfers and will say that I am impressed. The clarity, balance and tone is better than I expected. I hope this discussion will dispel the idea that all remastered reissues are the same. Most likely, the age of the source will speak to the audio quality but not always. The levels, microphones, tape machine, recording venue, etc... will influence the original recordings sound quality. Additionally, the condition of the original source tapes and the person leading the project will greatly influence the remaster. And I’m pretty certain that many other variables could influence the final project. I will say however that a certain aesthetic consistency can be heard in these boutique companies so that the MOFI sound may or may not sway someone from justifying the cost of purchase. Personally, I’m excited from time to time to see a recording that has undergone a process of remastering but in the end, the price tag is a very big factor in whether I’ll pull the trigger. As much as I’d love to own re-pressings from The Electric Recording Company, their price tag is too far beyond my budget. Anyway, I believe I’ve said pretty much everything that I can about this matter.

@goofyfoot 

I should've said revealing instead of "bright". My mistake. I've only heard one pair of Quads and they certainly weren't bright or cold. I haven't heard that many systems, overall, and as it's happened, those that were significantly more revealing than mine sounded fatiguing to my ears, so it's just inexperience on my part.  

I'm a huge fan of '72 era Dead but have a love/hate relationship with the Jerry and the boys (and girl). I can't stand out of tune singing or sloppy playing -- the "ragged but right" ethos is an oxymoron from my standpoint. But at their best -- when they were both inspired and tight, (particularly from '71 - '77), I love 'em.

"Europe '72" was the first live Dead album I heard and it's consistency spoiled me forever. No full show from that year that I've heard equals it, for me. Inevitably there are clunkers intermixed with jewels. A perfectionist by nature, I'm not the type to buy albums because I like a few tunes, so I find this hit-or-miss miss aspect frustrating. I turn to the cherry-picked  "Europe '72 and "Steppin' Out -- England '72" anthologies when I'm in the mood for that '72 sound. 

I saw them in "73, '74 and '77 but due to the "recreational enhancements" popular back then, don't actually remember much! ;o)

@dobnbav   What do u mean my slightly odd taste in music ? Everyone like and loves different music. And also I know there will always be a market for these if and when I sell them. Also look how much they are going up in value. It’s almost like an investment. 

Tattoo, it’s your money. And your slightly odd taste in music. Paying huge premiums on reissues you haven’t researched…to each his own. I own a large number of Mofi discs, includes number of SACD’s. Maybe one I purchased used because it was out of print but I didn’t pay $80 and I knew the issue was solid. Frankly, of all my 5000 discs, SACDs, LPs, Blu Rays, and DVDAs, if I bought 50 used, and I think only 2, the other a super rare—only 750 copies were released, online.—John Mayall and Paul Butterfield EP.  But as I said it’s your money.

@dobnbav I recently purchased Derik and the Dominos Layla. Aretha’s Gold. Boz Scaggs Silk Degrees. The police Synchonicity. Rod Stewart Every picture tells a story. Eric Clapton Slow hand. Steely Dan Aja. Moody blues Days of future passed. Queen The game. Queen News of the world. Queen A night at the opera. Elton John Honkey Chateau. Elton John Goodbye yellow brick road. Pink Floyd Dark side of the moon. Pink Floyd The wall. The Who. Who are you. The Who Tommy. U2 War. Jethro Tull Thick as a brick. I guess I will be looking in the mirror and laughing 😂

There is a superiority of gold, but...the issue isn't that it's a gold disc, it's the mastering or remastering of the album. There are some great ones and some ok ones. It also depends on the year of the mastering. Why would you or any else enjoy being raped by someone who horded unopened MOFI releases? Anything more than $40 ,unless a really extraordinary disc, and try not to laugh when you look in the mirror. 

@goofyfoot 

 I believe the Gold Archival CD’s have a life expectancy of three hundred years. I personally won’t be around to find out.

Why not?😀

red books are fine! get a ard cd ref 8 or 9!!! u will be pleased! i am!!

@stuartk Totally understand, different stereos render different results. I have Quad 2905 ESL’s and they are very revealing. I will say that ESL’s while great for classical music don’t work all that well with rock/popular music. I wouldn’t say however that my stereo is cold. It’s generally neutral but can sound warm or cold depending on the recording. As far as alternative recordings to MOFI, I recently purchased the MOFI Crosby, Stills and Nash and am wondering if I don’t prefer the Audio Fidelity remaster instead. I’m not laughing at Rhino, the GD box set Europe 72 remasters are outstanding.

@curiousjim I believe the Gold Archival CD’s have a life expectancy of three hundred years. I personally won’t be around to find out.

@tattooedtrackman 

congratulations on your upgrades!  MOFI is MOFi.  Having said that, the biggest difference between the gold and the aluminum layers, is that there is a small chance that the aluminum ones degrade in time, but the gold one’s pretty much live forever. I’ve bought thousands of CD’s and have had maybe six have issues and these are all factory, not Office Despot copies.

All the best.

My MFSL Layla Ultradisc gold UDCD 585 is, according to Discogs, from 1993.

You may laugh at this... I prefer the rhino remasters of both Workingman’s and A. Beauty to their recent MoFi hybrid counterparts. I also prefer the old MFSL Mars Hotel to the recent hybrid. Same with Caravanserai and Rock of Ages. All these hybrids sound rather dull to me -- the redbook layer, at least -- I don’t have an SACD player. Perhaps your system is more resolving or just brighter, overall? Or what sounds "warm" to you sounds "dull" to me? I don’t like overly bright sound in guitars or audio but I don’t like dull, either.

On the other hand, I’ve tried Japanese hybrids of Layla and Exile on Main Street and found both way too bright. Do the Japanese all listen on tube gear? ? ?

I have Traffic’s 2nd album and Low Spark on MFSL golds and they sound good enough. For Exile, I've settled on the Bob Ludwig Virgin remaster. Same with Sticky Fingers. 

@stuartk I believe that ‘Layla’ remaster was relatively recent. If you like Eric kClapton, then I’d recommend the ‘Blind Faith’ remaster from many, many years ago. They did a remix that warrants having, even if the original is highly prized. The old Traffic remasters are also pretty good, however they never released a version of ‘Johnny Barleycorn Must Die’. The Grateful Dead ‘Mars Hotel’ was remastered twice. Once in the late 1980’s and another time just around two years ago. There is a significant improvement in the most recent release however that recording isn’t that good to begin with, so there’s an issue with separation, balance and distortion. The original Traffic recordings are just old and there’s just no work around under those circumstances. My two favorite MOFI remasters are Bob Dylan’s ‘Blood On The Tracks’ and The Grateful Dead’s ‘American Beauty’. Those both turned out really nice while giving the slight edge to ‘Blood On The Track’s’. So in a very discursive way, what I’m saying is that yes, the catalogue is inconsistent but I would say the same thing regardless of who does a remaster/re-release of pre recorded material. There’s absolutely no way they couldn’t be unless the original tapes were all recorded in the same studio, by the same producers, with the same equipment and at the same time. And while the historical period of the recordings are worthy of serious consideration, some earlier recorded tapes sound better than recent ones. The Analogue Productions ‘Scheherazade’ RCA Richter/CSO remaster that was originally recorded in the later 1950’s on a three track machine is jaw dropping. There are just so many variables to consider, that it’s either hit or miss or get to together with someone who owns a lot of these re- releases and pick there brain. My last purchased re-releases are Japanese paper sleeve remasters of the three Nick Drake studio albums. I’m happy with them however what they lack in detail, they make up for in warmth of tone. Anyway, recordings are flawed and they’ll always be that way but I would never want to be the guy who makes the blanket statement that all remasters are b*ll s**t.

@goofyfoot 

Yes. Agreed. I'm by no means one of those guys who asserts that "original CD releases are always the best". This is apparently "gospel" for some, here.

Personally, I've had extremely variable results. Sometimes the originals sound better. Often, remasters sound different but not necessarily better and sometimes remasters definitely sound better... to my ears, of course. As you assert, it's a matter of taste. 

At this point, a sufficient number of MoFi CDs have disappointed me that I'm disinclined to purchase any more. I have a few Analogue Production CDs and these fall into the "different but not better" category, for me. 

Part of the equation is that my system is now sufficiently resolving and sufficiently dialed in to make decently mastered CDs sound very good and well-mastered CDs sound excellent to stunning. Of course, there will always be some recordings that cannot be helped by remastering... "Layla" comes to mind immediately. I've tried various versions and have (ironically, perhaps, given the topic at hand) opted to stick with the old MoFi gold discs. ;o)

Thank you everyone. There seems to be a lot of mixed reviews of Mofi. I personally do hear a difference with my system. I have bought about 20 Mofi in about the last 2!weeks. Since I only listen to digital I think it is worth it to me. 👍

@stuartk Agree that MOFI is inconsistent but believe it has a lot to do with the original tapes and whoever does the remastering. I‘m not much of a collector when it comes to popular music, so I rarely purchase MOFI releases but will say that I usually find good remasters to be an improvement to their originals, regardless of which label they’re associated with. However, a dealer friend always preferred original vinyl to remastered vinyl on his very high end rig so I’m inclined to say that it’s a matter of taste. Major labels like Universal are now taking great measures to remaster their catalogue and many are excellent but as I said, it always depends on the quality of the source and who they hire to do the remastering.

@ghdprentice 

Thought it might be helpful for OP to talk to you, but it would appear he is wedded to his Rega CDP. 

@goofyfoot 

In my experience, it is exactly the mix and mastering of MoFi releases that is so inconsistent and at times, worse than other versions. Surprisingly, I find myself in agreement with @jasonbourne in this regard. 

To me they sound like any other cd except with more dynamic range, probably due to their mastering. If you want a really exceptional sounding redbook cd, try JVC XRCDs. Limited number of recordings but exceptional!

The only reason to purchase MOFI is for the mix and remastering. I happen to think Analogue Productions does a better job of that than MOFI. Anyway, Gold CD's are archival but they sound like any other CD. Better of buying audiophile CD polish and hoping it makes a difference.

@jayctoy : For all the vaunted claims of digital over analog I still treasure and enjoy listening to my LP collection. Nostalgia maybe? I still seek and buy particular used LP'S. Unfortunately prices are rising on those!

I have several I bought cheaper on eBay, including Aja. Those cases are the Devil's own invention!

I am strangely on total agreement with jasonborne on this one, don't waste your money on 24k CDs, standard 16bit 44.1hz are hard to beat. 

“It comes down to the mastering of the recording. ”

+1, @larryi nailed it. I had much better luck with XRCD’s and Hybrid SACD’s from Acoustic Sounds label Analog Productions. 
https://store.acousticsounds.com/index.cfm?get=results&categoryid=8&LabelID=507