One of the all time great automotive engineers, Norbert Singer, was a key player in every one of the 16 Porsche LeMans victories from 1970 to 1998. His dominance was such that at one point Porsche had won LeMans more than all other marques combined. This was all accomplished by building on the already solid foundation of Porsche production models. The air cooled flat 12 in the 917 was really two flat sixes combined to make 12. This car so dominated motorsport the rules had to be changed to stop it!
So Norbert Singer modified Porsche production technology to extract the absolute most for racing. His legacy is today’s Singer Vehicle Designhttps://singervehicledesign.com Norbert doesn’t make for a very good car name so they called it Singer. What is a Singer? It is a modified Porsche. It is in essence a hot rod. What Norbert Singer did was make the most hot rod racing Porsche. What Singer does is take that to the next level, capturing every aspect of Porsche right down to excellence of design and aesthetics.
I am not anywhere near the level of Singer. But that is the spirit of what we are doing: taking an already world-class design and hot-rodding it to be even better. Well, better for me anyway- or so we hope!
The early modders started with substituting off the shelf parts to get more power or less weight. That is pretty much all we are doing here. Would be cool if some day people are doing this with a lot more sophisticated approach. Maybe they will. Maybe even I will. For now though we have the current crossover project.
My approach is pretty simple: better parts sound better.
This lesson was learned back in the late 90’s with Linaeum Model 10 speakers. The designer had a new tweeter and told me how to modify the crossover for it. Simple mod, one cap, one resistor. Bought the parts from Radio Shack, put it together, sounded like crap. Absolute horrid crap! Called him up, he said those parts are crap. Said Musicap, Vishay. But they measure the same? Just do it. I did. It worked. Even though they measure exactly the same, the sound difference is off the charts.
Even though they measure exactly the same. There is a lesson here. For those willing to learn.
So this is the essence of it: Eric Alexander has made a speaker the equivalent of a Porsche 911. Even better: an affordable Porsche 911! But after a while with my 911, after learning what makes it drive and feel the way it does, it was only natural to change the shocks and torsion bar and other items to bring out even more of what I like so much about the 911.
That is what we are doing here. Hot-rodding a speaker. Thank you Rick for the metaphor!
MC went about the capacitors differently than I had done in my crossovers (seen in my system page), the two different crossovers (two different pairs of speakers) both employed a use of double wall heat shrink. Where I joined two capacitors in parallel, there was silicone between them, and then double wall heat shrink and siliconed (if it’s not a word, maybe one day it will be?) securely to the board the crossover is built on.
**Double wall heat shrink has hot glue on the inside wall.**
Either way, MC’s way or the way Mike Lenahan told me to mount the capacitors are a good way to mitigate the ringing inside of a capacitor. An entire thread could be written on such things in crossover electronics, and ways to get the most out of them....
Interestingly: I bought fO.q tape and discs some time ago, based on a thread on Agon actually. As the thread progressed, the claims of snake oil came into the discussion and well, when the package from Japan arrived, I simply put it in the drawer. Seems like I’d better find it and apply it sometime, somewhere?!!
@thecarpathian - your suggestion on the Erse was a really good one, and they were exceptional value for money as well. I was more than a little disappointed they’d stopped producing the FoilQ.
@millercarbon - are you going to glue and cable tie your inductors to the backing board? That is to help mitigate ringing in your metal coils, by laminating it to the backing board and high tension cable ties. As they are tensioned they kinda act like springs, constantly holding the inductor to the backing board, coupling them. **it also insures that the glue never lets go either, just sayin'!
Still putting it together, haven’t heard music through them. But I have built a lot of stuff and know what it means when something tinks and rings like the bare Jantzen. Herbie’s used only about a 1/2" strip wrapped around each cap near the ends. Huge improvement. Almost stopped right there. Then added strips of fO.q tape a little at a time. Pretty sure the way it will all go back in there it will be possible to reach in and remove a strip or two at a time if need be.
Got a hunch at least some of the super smooth yet detailed quality people hear from Duelund is down to the material used around the outside. The casing or whatever its called. The Duelund JDM Silver bypass caps are dead as dead can be.
Even just a little bit of the Herbie’s material killed a lot of the Alumen Z ringing, and by the time I was done with fO.q tape the Jantzen are now pretty thoroughly damped. The Herbie’s material is thicker and so will double as additional isolation, suspending the caps about 1/8" above the mounting board and apart from each other.
MC a comment about the Herbie's material, my guess is that you tried the fat dots, if so, then both the fat or thin will absorb any ringing but after trying both i found the thin ones to behave a little better in not absorbing too much life. But as i said is my guess.
And that is why it is being done in stages. As already explained in this thread, this is Phase One. Whether or not Phase Two happens we will see. One step at a time.
Name calling like that is unacceptable really, by anyone. Unnecessary. Such behavior needs to change. Stalking and trolling along with it. I'm guilty of saying things that I regret later. - rixthetrick
Why doesn't MC simply go outboard with his crossover? I can tell you why I would wait to go outboard, unless it was an intention in the original design (Eric did not design it to be outboard).
I would have to determine that the new crossover is indeed superior to the old crossover first. Then I'd have to determine which conductors I'd decide would best go with the lengthening of wires from the crossover.
Knowing that in order to correctly implement an outboard crossover, generally terminals needs to be added to connect the extra wires for the three way driver configuration that was implemented in the original design. I suppose sealed pairs of wires could come out the back of the cabinet, requiring engineering and modification of the cabinet.
Once such an undertaking takes place, there is really no turning back to restore them to original, as it stands, he can restore to original with a soldering iron, by restoring the original crossovers.
There would be no good reason to run all of his internal speakers wires (which are quite a few, considering the array) through his port, and so further modification to the cabinet would be required.
That's why I would do it in stages, if I was asked the same question.
Good luck with such facts. I am not removing people from anywhere, but I do wonder how posts with obvious hatred and denigrating others are allowed to stay.
For example, millercarbon's post above ends with glorifying rage and violence. All because some company did not have an item in stock. I think such things do not have place in an otherwise peaceful venue. They are neither funny, nor witty. They are pure angry hate. Sure, my link to an anger management course got removed while millercarbon's unpleasant link to pure violence stayed.
It is baffling how many times have members here been called morons, hateful, and other truly unacceptable names. Over and over. One thing is to be arrogant, the other is to be hostile.
It only seems that way because the range is so wide. None of this by the way is anything new. Not even the vibration control. Others have done even more. Others here, even. Year or so ago I even came across one system, the guy had done everything I am doing, and then some. So impressive, PM'd the guy, we had a nice little phone call. He doesn't post. Why? Because certain a-holes (his word) who had nothing to contribute but insults keep at it. This works because on-line bullies never have to face anyone. Or we would find out real quick what cowards they are. This guy, he was all over this stuff, just not thick enough skin to take the heat. Which I can understand. Me, different story.
Was kind of ticked off Erse wasted two days of my time not answering questions until finally saying we don’t make em any more. Which is one reason why I thank Partsconnexion.com and madisound.com and was going to not say anything about Erse. But since it keeps coming up, Erse sucks the big one. Wasted my time, didn’t do anything to help at all, say they have stuff they don’t even have. Anybody remember Jack Reacher, the scene where Duvall says, "Suck it!" Tried to find the clip, no luck. On second thought this is more like it https://youtu.be/nBG2IxzEn7g?t=52
Rix it was not me who mentioned the Erse inductors it was Carpathian. I use ribbons originally from Solo electronics which I have since wound down for use with different driver updates. Tom
I would implement ERSE audio inductors, specifically one from the Q series. But, since you never read what I write, you know with me being so horribly hateful and all, perhaps one of you fellows that miller at the moment acknowledges can pass along this most audiophiley suggestion. Thanks ever so....
@thecapathian [I misnamed you sorry] - actually I tried to get MC to order the ERSE FoilQ which Erse claim to have even less distortion. Unfortunately Erse have discontinued the Foil Q.
I was directing him to the same series of coils you are, just a different model. I am confident that the entire series are great performers, he did choose a highly performing alternative in a suitable gauge.
There have been shootouts on inductors and foil inductors have a particular transparency in the signal path, of which I have been informed (rightly or wrongly) is due to the skin effect, or diminishing it’s negative characteristics with the thinner geometry.
Some may ask why is it more important on the inductor as the rest of the components are not ribbon or foil conductors?? As air cored inductors generally sound better than iron cored coils, I suggested the foilQ, for reasons mentioned above. Air cored coils (also known as inductors, reactors, chokes) have longer windings (length of wire wound around a core) than ones with an iron core to achieve the same values. [I’ve wound air cored inductors in as large as 10AWG by hand, and not as much fun trying to keep it tight and neat as one might hope.]
Specifically my answer is, there is many feet in those windings, a lot more material to affect the signal along it’s path than any other single item in the crossover, or along the signal chain, including the speaker cable.
I guess MC will discover first hand whether or not it was a good call?!!
Skin effect is the tendency of an alternating electric current (AC) to become distributed within a conductor such that the current density is largest near the surface of the conductor and decreases exponentially with greater depths in the conductor. The electric current flows mainly at the "skin" of the conductor, between the outer surface and a level called the skin depth. Skin depth depends on the frequency of the alternating current; as frequency increases, current flow moves to the surface, resulting in less skin depth. Skin effect reduces the effective cross-section of the conductor and thus increases its effective resistance. Skin effect is caused by opposing eddy currents induced by the changing magnetic field resulting from the alternating current. At 60 Hz in copper, the skin depth is about 8.5 mm. At high frequencies the skin depth becomes much smaller.
I have had platforms inside my speakers for many years and inside my power amps for the last 6 all tensioned..resonant energy directed to mechanical ground to and thru platforms on the outside of all. A stable reactive conduit for noise to get out of town. The drivers chassis are also part of this exit path strategy. Different concept than what you are employing..I guess we are both tied together at opposite extremes. I am certain all that hard work will be worth the effort. Another great project to describe and build. Good listening. Tom
Right now (before this whole thing blows up in my face!) would probably be a good time to thank Rick and Paul for all their help. Paul (sorry I forget his AG handle maybe MJLett?) was a big help early on, and Rick rixthetrick a huge help with details especially towards the end. There were others but these two especially have taken the time to answer all my dopey questions and help me climb a very steep learning curve. Thanks, guys!
Also want to give a shout out to Madisound.com and partsconnexion.com for getting my orders out and delivered super fast. Both orders were placed late Thursday night, shipped Friday, and delivered the following Monday. This, with standard shipping! Impressive!
John Hannant at Townshend Audio- bet no one ever asked him how to put Pods inside a speaker before! Thanks!
Krissy, when she found out what I’m doing, is sending me some of her TDF magic designed to go where no TDF has gone before! Love me my Krissy magic. She is the best. Frank knows, doncha Frank? ;) And Tom. Almost forgot. (How could I?) ;)
chicagoblue1977, hilde45, mglik, lawmnsuu, ovinewar1, petg60, nmmusicman, willgolf, oldhvymec, and all my many loyal lurkers, thank you as well. A lot of you prefer to avoid the unwanted attention of the few bad apples. Totally understand and respect that. All the same, so glad you reach out to me. My system will soon be a whole lot better thanks to information gleaned from others very much like yourself. Couldn’t have done it any other way.
Was about to add something, but let’s keep it positive: Thank you!
DHL has my Townshend Pods, to be delivered Monday. Crossover components are now ready to be fixed to the board and soldered together. Then stuffed in there somehow. 😳 So girls, my Saturday dance card is full! 😂
The crossover is mounted on an old Omega e-Mat. Thank you, Krissy and Frank for that one. Frank gave me the speaker idea quite some time ago, it has been brewing in there ever since. Mats however are too flexible to support this much weight. So they will be laminated to a BDR Shelf.
Before laminating the completed crossover will be set up on Pods in order to determine where they will go. The BDR will then be drilled and tapped with studs used to screw Pods to Shelf.
This will allow me to install the completed crossover and use it on the Shelf, and attach the Pods later without having to remove, drill and tap. I have an idea for a quick-release way to hold them in place that will also reinforce the brace.
That's the plan. Iron Mike has a great quote about plans. So we will solder it, stuff it, and listen to it Saturday and Sunday. Then Monday with Pods. Anyways, with an eye out for the left hook! 😂😂😂
I would implement ERSE audio inductors, specifically one from the Q series. But, since you never read what I write, you know with me being so horribly hateful and all, perhaps one of you fellows that miller at the moment acknowledges can pass along this most audiophiley suggestion. Thanks ever so....
The top Duelund caps are superb, but would cost more than the Moab - and take up about as much space! So I opted for Jantzen Alumen Z as they come very close for a fraction of the price. Then with a Duelund bypass cap they get even closer.
It is one thing to read and look at these things on paper. It is quite another to actually hold in hand. The instant this happens it is quite apparent the Jantzen ring like the proverbial bell. Well they do appear to be rolled inside a thin wall aluminum tube. In contrast, the Duelund caps are in some sort of composite looking material that is thicker and quite inert.
Even just a little bit of the Herbie’s material killed a lot of the Alumen Z ringing, and by the time I was done with fO.q tape the Jantzen are now pretty thoroughly damped. The Herbie’s material is thicker and so will double as additional isolation, suspending the caps about 1/8" above the mounting board and apart from each other.
Another interesting thing that came up, inductors. There is a very generalized or simplified way of seeing electricity as a current that moves through the core of a wire while fine details ride along the outside, the skin effect. This is really silly simplified, leading to my saying to Krissy one day what we know about electricity is like what we knew about fire a million years ago- Don’t touch, fire hot! Millions like that even today. What’s behind the panel? Don’t touch!
Still, we can do things even with this crude understanding. Coil a wire around and around, the fields block higher frequencies while the lower ones pass. This coil is an inductor. Inductors filter out high frequencies.
There’s things we can do to improve inductors. An iron core improves efficiency. Eric uses one of these for the bass. Sometimes called a sledgehammer inductor, by Peter Gabriel fans, I guess. I wanna be....
A much better and (of course) more costly method is to shape the round wire into a flat ribbon and wrap the ribbon around with very thin insulation. This is better because we are trying to get the high frequency surface fields to interact and mute and this ribbon geometry maximizes these surface interactions. Also costs a lot more to roll into a pure copper wire into a uniformly thin ribbon and wind it all nice and tight and precise.
So that is what we got, and I went for Goertz Alpha Core inductors. The gauge was a bit confusing. Normally with wire the gauge is thickness. In this case we want thin. So it was counter-intuitive at first to hear the thicker gauge is preferred. But gauge is really about cross-sectional thickness. The "thicker" 12AWG is actually ribbon rolled out very thin. But by making it wider we get the extra cross-sectional current carrying capacity. Now it makes sense!
Alas, inductors get no love. If there is an inductor website where enthusiasts gush over their favorite inductors ineffable ability to convey the emotion in Tony Levin’s bass line, the perfect combination of slam and fundamental fullness, I have yet to find it. Still, that is what we are looking for here.
Inductors also roll off the high frequencies from the midrange drivers. In doing so they affect not only the upper band of the midrange but the lower band of the tweeter. Nobody really seems to talk about this, yet it has to be. So in addition to what seems an obvious bass improvement it seems inevitable that quality inductors also contribute to improved midrange and treble.
With all the work and effort going into this project, I still don't understand why the crossovers are not being taken outside into separate enclosures.
I mean, think of all those nasty vibrations bouncing around inside the cabinets.
Glupson specfic to debating one must have a general understanding of the factual use and implementation of material and methods if not science of the subject, in this thread it is audio. In your case you have demonstrated a failing grade on virtually any audio subject. Your commentary has limited use here or on any audio subject because you seem to lack a broad knowledge of anything that is part of the chain of sound. Tom
Is your obsession with me just regular trolling, or should I consider it some flattering infatuation?
You seem to be relatively new here so you may not know how it goes. If you came to fight, you are in the wrong place. This is a peaceful place. Debating is, in general, encouraged. Friendly, often humorous, exchanges are well-tolerated. Asking for information is encouraged, too. Calling people names and insulting them in every other post frequently gets an unfavorable response.
Feel free to continue following me. It is free and over time you may learn something.
In this particular thread, your focus may be better used on millercarbon's crossover project. Even I am following it with interest.
I found direct coupling the bass actually works. No passive XO for me anymore. My bass is all active XOs. At the very least my onboard Plate amps have DSP. One system is servo, one is Direct coupled with full blown DSP 300hz and below..
I like the way DSP pressures the room. more so than the servo units..
DSP I can actively see on a Laptop what is going on and change it on the fly.. Servo plate amps I can't.. I have to get up move the unit listen, play with the controls... YES PLAY! It takes forever..
DSP is a LOT more convenient using a Behringer set up.. Never tried it above 300 hz though.. I'm all passive 300hz and up.. 6 different crossovers at a time and daisy chainable... 6+6+6+6 etc. 256 nodes I think..
MC's set up has a single woofer on the bottom. that is better from a mag field perspective. I had TWO, close, at right angles. One is a double stack the other a single. LOL I stick a compass in there... It just spins. I'm not putting an XO even close. I think its 18" from the bass section. Need to remove the drivers all together. I haven't used the bass section in most speakers in years..
The Bass and monitor section in the same box? How do you separate the vibration there, if it so dog gone important? Vibration that is.. Just wondering from a guy who did do it.. ME... No bass and I limited the effects of bass on bass drivers (phase plug design)
All the other drivers use a foam directional wave guides and weirs in the planar design (Back wave return).
I've designed a LOW distortion, low vibration system that really works well. A lot of the acoustic tweak is right in the BOX and DRIVER design..
I actually though inside the box.
Then outside the box for the bass. Just made sense to me.
While we are at that, as millercarbon allegedly does not read my posts (that is just one reason why he stays uninformed about topics he preaches), could you tell him that some of us are decent drivers? His demeaning non-sense was not well-placed.
"I am sure he is wonderful."
I am not sure about wonderful, but at least I have manners.
Now, you do not need to walk away. Instead, why not run?
I've got the parts all laid out the right way now, each inductor axis at 90 to the others, and the fun part, Herbie's Grunge Buster mat under the inductors and around the ends of the Alumen Zcaps. Herbie's is kind of a stiffer thicker sorbothane I guess you could call it. Most of the rest of the caps are wrapped in fO.q tape.
All the leads reach so they can all be wired direct to each other.
Couple days now at my day job, then get back to it Saturday.
@chicagoblue1977 - I agree with your initial statement over the trolling (you may be surprised by the numbers of those who agree with you). And will not consider myself worse off without the contention and trolling.
Cryo One is local, I know the guy, he did all my wire. Everything from the panel to the speakers at one point was all cryo. But now almost everything is anyway, I am not going to bother with driving back and forth adding 2 weeks to something I know can be improved more and better for much less time and trouble thanks to Krissy and her TDF.
As much time as it took to figure out what parts and get them here, getting it all laid properly and to fit is proving to be about as hard as anything.
Send out all the parts to be cryo treated twice..and when they return heat treat for an hour in your oven at 200 degrees like any good NASA engineer. Tom
A lot of people wondering why the crossover will be INSIDE. 😉 Well mostly it will be inside because I am a low hanging fruit kind of guy. Try not to make things harder than they need to be. Yes, for sure there are advantages to an outboard crossover, and it could even sound better if properly implemented.
Right now the signal from the amp goes through 9 feet of the finest speaker cable I ever heard, Townshend F1. From the terminals there's only one or two feet of Eric's "military spec" internal wire. If I go external then I need first to find a couple feet of F1 quality wire to go from the crossover to the terminals. Only now instead of just +/- terminals I need ones for all the driver connections. So external crossover means removing the existing terminal and replacing it with something else. Or running the wires through that opening. Something like that. Either way it means finding F1 quality wire, or otherwise losing in wire what was gained going outboard.
I think a lot of the outboard motivation comes from vibration control, and the convenience of tinkering and tweaking. Well, I am handling vibration control by mounting the whole thing on a BDR Shelf on Townshend Pods. And I am tweaking and tinkering to the nine's already. Also I know speakers are all different but with these when the lower woofer is removed the crossover sits right behind it, just not all that hard to work on it if really necessary.
Internal wiring is on the table for some future project. When I look at all those wires, and how they are routed, and what they are, it is clear that however good this thing sounds with the new crossover it can be a whole lot better still with some premium wire. But reality check: 17 drivers. 34 solder connections. God knows what sort of wiring configuration to figure out. Per speaker.
@
oldhvymec - yeah, external is the best if you can get away with it. Always compromises though, like using a stereo amplifier the speaker wire runs need to be longer than two mono blocks.
The wire runs will be longer of course. Are you going to shield yours coming out of your x-over?
The driver's magnetic field when the driver is under load, does that change? I ask because generally the magnet is attached at the rear of the basket, I had always assumed it was a constant magnetic field, and the motor has an electromagnet that changes polarity to drive the cone?
I have suggested MC use variable resistors to test it, before finalising the values in each circuit. I do realise that one could spend a lot of time doing that.
MC - just a question or two...you have a wonderful system that is geeked up to the max. Then you buy the Moab’s that you have basically said is the greatest bang for buck speaker on this planet. Now you are taking it apart and adding more upgrades. Are you really going to be able to hear a difference? Where is the point of listening diminishing returns given your current system set-up? Okay, i know it’s a hobby!
Is he really going to hear a difference? They are a value added speaker, and in their price bracket they do represent large value. The difference will not be subtle, assuming the build has no flaws (this isn’t his first BBQ, perhaps not the best saying, as he does a LOT of BBQ apparently), the integrity of the original signal from his amplifier should have significantly less distortion introduced by these top tier components. Which are the best quality (or closely rivaling) that I am aware of.
There are only a couple of things that I have concerns for, DCR might change slightly, and MC measured the delivered crossover, not from the plan Eric designed. I cannot see how it will sound less resolving and many reasons to believe it will be more resolving.
Using a car as an analogy, control, braking and horsepower (when it’s needed) are all upgraded simultaneously.
Chauffeur Please!!!! :-) I don't care to drive anymore. Did it for a living I BACHED more miles than most folks accelerated forward. I guess you call it driving. I call it herding..
One incident DRIVING involving another piece of iron. Chrysler LeBaron 22 years ago. Dented a rim on a 15 ton service truck (drove home on it) and broke the ornament on his hood. Drove me into a curb.. I chose the curb vs his FULL front end... He was sited for distracted driving, his third wreck at the SAME intersection... The cop was just SMOKING.
The guy continued to talk on his cell phone until he was told to hang it up or "Go To Jail", he almost got a "Reckless Driving". HE should have had his license pulled right on the spot.. Admitted to being in THREE wrecks at the same intersection... The paint wasn't dry from the last wreck.. Still wasn't buffed...YUP..
You're using an IC or going point to point on your new larger boards? I couldn't sort out if it is Point to Point or an IC (you know with traces) You're mounting them inside? INSIDE? one more time INSIDE!! :-)
As I tipped a pair of speakers over (410 pounders) I was thinking, my new rear pole for the modified bipole could house the internal XO inside that box. Then I thought about it a little more and said.
A WHOLE NEW BOX. because I can't get the NEO 8 Driver fields far enough away from the XOs. BIG and or STRONG magnets have a 6-10" field.. According to my little experiment (mag compass) I know there is an issue running coils parallel. I also found HEAVY mag fields can change the XO parameters if they are too close. There are TWO serious drivers pretty close to the internal XO (existing bass section that is still intact).. and at right angles to one another..
I'm going External... On the fly changes and ease of location.
No other way around it for me..
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