MHDT Orchid or Lampizator Amber 3?

@sidog1460  I did a little more reading on the Lampizator website and saw that volume control does add input switching (but not balance control).  It adds $1000 to the cost. 

I was about to ask a similar question. I was told that I should use the Amber 3 with volume controls as a dac for my CD player and also as a preamp. I’m curious as to how the Amber 3 would perform as a preamp. I currently use the Audible Illusions M3b. Any thoughts or recommendations?

I find SS rectification provides for more powerful and controlled bass. When I build tube preamps and amps I always compare SS to tube rectification and the bass has always been better with SS. This is one area the Orchid did not take a back seat to the Lampi Golden Atlantic in my comparison.

I will also share upgrading the resistors on my Orchid provided as much if not more improvement than the output cap upgrade.

Miflex output caps are good, but I still find the Jupiter copper foils provide more inner detail and overall dimension. You won’t fit the stock 2uf value in the Orchid with the Miflex. They are just too big. You can fit the 2.2uf Jantzen Superior Z, Audience XO and new Vcap Odam caps in the same position as the original caps.

I used a custom made set of 2.2uf flat stacked Jupiter copper foils in mine that are too costly and time consuming for Jupiter to market.

The cap upgrade is important. The entire signal passes through it right to the RCA output. It really influences the sound. This cap is there for two reasons.

- block DC and Pass AC for signal
- high pass filter blocking frequencies below a certain point

The value in there of 2uf is really somewhat arbitrary as MHDT used 2uf assuring it could be used with all manner of preamps with varying input impedance specs. If the preamp’s input impedance load is small such as 10k ohms a larger cap value is needed to assure no bass rolloff! That is the only reason for the 2 uf value.

Let’s say your preamp as a moderate input impedance of 60k. Running the math shows the ideal sized capacitor is 1.0-1.3 uf. No roll off and the best sound! Larger value caps don’t sound as good as the same brand smaller value in this position. Best to always go with the smallest cap value best suited for your system...preamp. Customized vs universal solution.

Many preamps have an input impedance of 50k and above. Tube preamps usually have 100k plus! So a 1-1.3uf cap is fine or perfect for many preamps.  Anyone considering the cap upgrade should first look up your preamp’s input impedance.

I put 2.2uf Jupiter copper foils in mine that are huge. They are flat stacked and made special. I had to mount these in the back over the digital inputs. Just barely fit!

Many good caps would fit if you decide on the 1-1.3 uf range including Vcap, Jupiter as well as perhaps Miflex. Caps such as the new Vcap Odam, Jantzen Superior Z and Audience XO Will fit with their 2-2.2uf value in the same location as the originals.

Hope this helps.

Bill

I totally disagree with Teejay, having a tube rectifier without question gives you a bigger soundstage and depth, plus tube rolling can give you a much better still performance with 6x5,6ax5 rectifier choices,as well as 12au7 tubes. The ecc99 super tube gives it much more dynamics on demand .each of 5he 3 tubes has a specified duty, much better dynamics much bigger seperate power supplies.my friend has the 
Orchid with the WE tubes , we used the same very good Triode 
Audio Labs Digital American power cords
just go to enjoy the music .com under current reviews 
5 stars across the board for sonics , No other dac under $5 k 
is more musical.i sold m6 $6k PS Audio dac  for this dac sounds 
so more like a real life audio performance .
i do want to mention, I have used many usb cables .the            Final touch Audio usb cable beat my Wireworld Platinum 
and friends AQ Diamond .the best usb cable under $1500
we have found for sonic - Analog naturalness. It is $750 but worth every penny. The Orchid was also tested with this cable and sounded Excellent . The Orchid is the best under $2k dac I have heard. If you upgrade the big coupling capacitors and put a good fuse in it your can truthfully get another 10% musicality out of it 
the excellent Milflexcopper  foil paper poly oil caps fantastic in the orchid, and a very good power cord a must .if in the New England area email me and come over to hear the system and judge for your self. Everyone Have a nice Christmas 🎄🎄

@gadios I took a quick look at your clubs shootout of dacs and, while im sure it was fun and enlightening, Im not sure how relevant it is to this thread. What was the model of the Line Magnetic dac? The 502ca has been around 7 or 8 years. The other top performers in your shootout were Schiit Yiggy, Chord Qutest and the Jolida/black ice. Given your lineup of contenders, I would bet on the MHDT Orchid with confidence and the Lampizator Ambr 3 moreso.

There are so many dacs available that as soon as one is determined
as Best by one reviewer, another new model is out by someone else
and you are back to paying freight on a yet another trial. 
Our club did a 10 DAC shootout last August. The top 5 were
so close it was often difficult to perceive a difference. 
You can read results on AZAVClub.com. No one mentioned
the new Line Magnetic DAC. Probably because you can't really
get one too easily. Local Dealer here has had 4 since May. It 
won in our test. But several others were quite close.

No need to change out the chip in the Orchid. Folks who have and then compared to a fully burned in stock chip now say the stock chip is great.
Output caps can be Jupiter copper foil, Miflex 1uf, Audience XO or the new Vcap ODAM

The Western Electric tube is a must do upgrade. A good fuse helps.
The resistors around the tube can be upgraded to the Vishay Zfoil with great results. Contact me for values if interested and serious about doing the upgrade. Need to be skilled at mods and  working on the circuit board.

I’ve been dreading shopping in the minefield of new DACs but this discussion has provided me with needed direction, and I thank you guys for that!  Hope the stateside Lampi team will be participating in the Florida Audio Expo In Feb......

I would just like to add my thanks to all you gentlemen for the most excellent sharing of curiosity and experience in this very informative thread.  
I’ve had this little Orchid DAC for a few months now and simply love it.  It sounds so nice and sweet - almost as good as my record player.  Almost....

I take it when you get the volume control on the Amber, then you get a remote and input switching? 

What is the price for that option?

And lamp. does not do i2s inputs, right (that's one factor that pushed me towards the audio mirror)? 

Greetings Bob and All -
Wonderful thread with lots of useful perspectives. I've had my Orchid for a couple of weeks and love it. It sounds a lot better now than it did when it started out and seems to take about 30-45 minutes before it really sounds great. 
Here are some questions to those who own Orchids and have been tweaking them.

1. What tubes have you rolled and what have you ended up preferring?

2. Have you upgraded the stock TDA1541A chip? If so, to what version?

3. What capacitors etc have you replaced?

4. Is anyone using a USB decrapifier like the Schiit Eitr?
5. What USB cable are you using?
Thanks all -
Markus

@grannyring you never mentioned what was different between the old Lampizator presentation you recalled and what you heard at the dealer yesterday. I would love to know.

@jzzmusician and @grannyring  I am so sorry the two of you are having to deal with tinnitus. I must admit i dont even know what it is, only having seen the commercials on tv but i know i dont want it! Its probably inevitable, maybe a symptom of believing we are immortal as youngsters only to discover we arent.

@grannyring I truly hope you like the Amber 3. It shows a great deal of character on your part, a rare trait these days on internet forums, to seek out a product you were pretty sure you wouldn’t prefer only to be open minded enough to give it a spin. Very cool.

I have a feeling the guys at Lampizator are going to be very busy. Fred and the stateside Lampi team work hard, show up to most of the shows and let those in the room pick the music. This Amber 3 performance combined with the crazy pricepoint, I predict, will disrupt the dac playing field materially. Hey, some may listen and prefer something else which is also cool. Horses for courses.

I also have tinnitus and I will say the Orchid is very easy on the ears and I am able to turn it up without setting off my tinnitus.  While the Orchid is not as extended or vibrant as the Golden Atlantic it has musicality in spades and is easy on the ears over long listening sessions.

I expect to receive my Amber 3 by mid-January.  It will be interesting to see how she plays in my room with my gear.  

ghasley,
you said, " With all due deference to the OP, he/she started this thread to question a binary comparo between the Orchid and the Amber 3. I apologize if my posts introduced the idea for others to begin recommending their dacs. The OP may or may not want those recommendations. I was just trying to communicate reference points and a baseline for context."
Your posts along with those from grannyring and others are some of the best I've ever read here in a long time. 

It's true I am most interest in the two dacs in the original posts and made it limited so the thread didn't get into a "he said, she said," kind of a deal.
This thread is a delight to read and I've read every post at least three time.  At the moment, the Amber 3 is at the top of my list followed by the Orchid.  I'm sure I'd be happy with the Orchid, or Pagoda, and sometimes wonder if my 67 old ears with mild tinnitus would be able to tell the difference. 

Thanks again to all of you for your thoughts!
- Bob

Thanks ghasley, that's information I did not know.

The volume on my Golden Atlantic was excellent. When you opt to add the volume you also get a set of analog inputs and the small screen so that your selected input shows, be they your digital inputs or the analog in. Its a trade off between no extra interconnects vs the flexibility of separates.

For those of you that have heard the Amber 3, can you comment on the Lampizator volume control?  I don't currently have a preamp and I'm weighing the difference between buying a low cost passive pre like the Schiit Freya or ordering the Amber with volume.

Very cool. @grannyring now that you’ve heard the Golden Atlantic, isn’t it uncanny how different the recent Lampizators sound versus just a few years ago. Weren’t you surprised when you thought back to when you first formed your unfavorable impression of the Lampizator sound?

Whether or not you find the Amber 3 the right dac for you, whether you find that it improves those musical areas you value, its fun to experience something new. Kudos to the OP for posing a valid question that provoked a civil conversation and challenged a respected member here to experience it for himself and kudos to @grannyring for making the effort to go listen. No matter the outcome, this is an example to us all. @grannyring  was admittedly predisposed that the Lampizator sound wasn’t to his tastes and he came away with the initial bias, a bias we all have from time to time, overcome.

The moral to the story: search out and listen for yourself.

Thank you

@facten looking like mid-January as a realistic delivery date.

@gestalt What's the turnaround time on getting an Amber?

@grannyring it was a pleasure.

@ghasley NOS USAF 596 rectifier and Gold Lion new production KT66 output tubes. I have a fair number of other tubes available (KR 5U4G RK, NOS EL34, NOS Brimar 6L6G, new production KT77, NOS Russian 5C3S, etc) for audition but we purposefully avoided rolling the tubes for this session in an attempt to fairly represent the Amber 3.

I will let Colin respond as I don’t remember. The Golden Atlantic spread a vivid and lively soundstage that placed the instruments and vocalists in the space with you. It was more vivid sounding than the Orchid. I found myself wanting to turn up the Orchid up to match the vividness and scale of the Golden Atlantic. However, the  increased volume was not enough to match the scale and vividness of the Golden Atlantic.

@grannyring which tubes was Colin running in the Golden Atlantic TRP?

Hello all. Today I compared the $10,000 Atlantic Golden TRP to my $1400 or so upgraded Orchid. Yes, not a fair comparison due to the vast price difference.

Colin of Gestalt Audio in Nashville had it set up in his killer system. Did I find my Orchid as good as the Golden TRP? Honestly, I did not. The Orchid was not embarrassed however and actually had better weight and fullness or more “meat on the bones”. However, the Atlantic Golden was more resolute and effortless sounding. It also spread a wider stage. I liked it very much. Great dac. I cannot spend $10,000 and am assuming the Amber 3 will share the same strengths compared to the Orchid. This is speculation, but I liked the Lampizator sound coming through the Atlantic Golden. Sometimes that extra 10% in performance is worth the cost as it just brings you closer to the music/performance.

I had fun and really enjoyed the Zellaton, Gershman Acoustic speakers and Lamm gear Colin has on hand.

I am going to proceed on getting the Amber 3 and placing it in my system for further  Colin is great to work with and suspect I will be back to his listening room soon 🙂.

@brownsfan always a pleasure meeting new people in the area! Happy to help you audition when you're ready.

- Colin

LampizatOr dealer
https://gestalt.audio

@gestalt, thanks for making your presence known.  I live within 3 hours of Nashville and have a strong interest in the Amber and possibly the GA.  I may get in touch after the holidays.  I'd love to hear both of the Lampi Dacs.

Given that it worked out for GR, I'll also say that I'd be happy to bring my AMT3se over for a comparison if anyone is around Denver...

@grannyring Wow, this thread is a wonderful example of the value of the Audiogon community. A friendly exchange of ideas, no one felt insulted that some may prefer brand x over their brand y dac while others love their dac (which may be manufactured by slave labor that sells for $99) and then a friendly brick and mortar dealer near you has what you wish to hear! Thats what Audiogon is all about.

I hope @gestalt has an Amber 3 in stock in order to expedite your curiosity although I would be surprised as they seem to be tough to see in the wild, they are made to order and I understand there is a backlog. At a minimum, you should go hear the Golden Atlantic TRP. It will give you a taste of the modern evolution of Lampizator dacs. Best wishes and happy holidays to all.

Wow, very cool grannyring!  Hopefully your'e able to demo in your listening room and make a great comparison.

What about a Musical Paradise?

http://www.musicalparadise.ca/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=61&product_id=97

It was reviewed to hit well above its class...Thomas and Stereo gave a fairly comprehensive review on one of these (actually the lower cost version than the link to the unit I’m suggesting). I’m considering one, but am personally focussed on a lower budget than the units suggested here.

@ghasley. Very kind of you to offer. I will contact the local dealer first, but big thank you!

Colin, very nice of you to offer a demo and will contact you for arrangements.

@grannyring I’m in Nashville and have a Golden Atlantic TRP on the floor. Happy to arrange an Amber 3 demo. They sound lovely.

- Colin
  
LampizatOr dealer
https://gestalt.audio

I too would be very interested in a comparison between a modified Orchid (which I have been considering) and Amber 3.  I'm hoping to build a house this year, and I'm slowly planning my listening room, as well as significant equipment upgrades.  The discussion thus far has been very helpful to me. 

With all due deference to the OP, he/she started this thread to question a binary comparo between the Orchid and the Amber 3. I apologize if my posts introduced the idea for others to begin recommending their dacs. The OP may or may not want those recommendations. I was just trying to communicate reference points and a baseline for context.

@grannyring why don’t you PM me, since you have made me some cables in the past and you have an exemplary reputation, I would be happy to send you my Amber 3 for an appropriate period of time so that you may listen for yourself. All you would be out is shipping and insurance both ways.
The Orchid is a terrific dac and I’m sure with the modifications you have made it is extraordinary. If you are happy with both the sound you are getting and the investment made, comparing the two may be a rabbit hole you would rather avoid. Its your choice as I have no skin in the game but if nothing else, you will either feel better about your choice or come to the conclusion that doubling your investment in a dac brings only minor improvements to your system. Let me know. Peace.

Lampi NY charges $150 for shipping direct out of Poland.

We get the Orchid outputs 16/44 and sounds great. I like NOS dacs!

I have the Orchid for about 6 months and I really like it. But if I tase you I would consider the Chord Qutest. The sound is a little different but I could easily live with it.
It has a smaller footprint, and you can change the sound with the built in filters.

I have borrowed the Qutest for 2 weeks so I have heard it in my system.

To reiterate: the Orchid can accept signals up to 24/192 khz, yet still outputs only 16/44 khz. I don't know if everyone gets this.

Lampizator last I checked shipped the lower end models out of East Coast USA
the Lampizator I have heard are organic and not forward, might I also suggest a used Aesthetix Pandora, FPGA, Jim White build quality, Sonics and support.

have fun and enjoy the journey and music

Somebody live near Nashville, TN with the Amber? Love to compare my tricked out Orchid which sounds fantastic to this unit. My Orchid cost me $1350 after the upgrades. The Amber is $2800 with no discount if you want a trial. My Orchid sounds so good I have a hard time believing the Amber is anything but a little different sounding. The Orchid really responds in spades with smartly done upgrades. My Orchid after upgrades is much more resolute, open and nuanced.

I want a shootout in my humble rig! 🤓 Any takers?

It is really a hassle to trial the Lampi line based on how far they are shipped and the shipping cost. Shipping back and forth is very, very expensive if one decides to send it back and eat the shipping costs. The shipping cost on top of the $2800 unit is $150 just one way!

This Amber may well be better, but I have some doubts based on owning a slew of other good dacs including the Lampi Level 4 and 5 going back a few years. I am very curious about this Amber due to all the praise is it getting from well respected Agoners.  

No comparison I know both well the s Amber 3 easily beats it
in most every way , and you can roll different rectifier tubes 
as well as 12au7 tubes it is also much more I feel it is the best dac  under $6 k I had ps audio $6 k dac, and I sold it for the Amber 3
It has a very natural performance.

I tried the Orchid, Pagoda, Denafrips Pontus and none made any difference to the sound quality of my system. I ended up buying the Pure Audio Lotus 5 dac. With my all tube set up it added more air, and an overall more dynamic sound but I can't comment on how it would go with SS equipment. Oh I couldn't afford the Amber 3 so didn't try it but did think about it. Another plus with the Pure Audio is that it has many inputs. 2 x coax, 2x optical, 1x AES/EBU, 1x usb and 1x llS/dsd as well as balanced and RCA outputs.

ghashley

Txs for the insights on the Amber and LaScala

Lots of really good info here.  Thank you to everybody!

I know this is getting far afield from the OP but I’m curious, has anyone heard the T&A DAC8 compared to those already mentioned?

@dfairc777a  I am not familiar with Cambridge gear nor have I heard the Primaluna dac. I did read up on the Primaluna a while back thinking that it looked like a neat effort.  With that tube compliment and the Kevin Deal/Upscale Audio/Primaluna partnership it would be hard to go wrong. It appears to be nicely over built with an exceptional preamp/output stage built in and its likely a very high quality dac. The jury is out on the tube clock from where I stand but I believe Kevin Deal is a straight shooter. I've seen posts where he can be a bit short with exhaustive tirekickers but my experience with him has always been wonderful. I believe Upscale does not charge a restocking fee on Primaluna gear purchased from them but that is from memory so dont quote me. Once again, alot of really neat gear out there to savor and covet. Good luck.

@t_ramey I believe the engine is the same, however, that is a question better posed to the Lampizator folks. I have heard the TRP is supposed to be exceptional but I have not heard one. Many say that it approaches the GG but I will leave that to the experts with experience with the TRP. The guys at Lampizator NA will tell you I purchased the Amber 3 to reside in my 3rd system, it was a default/impulse buy based on my wonderful experience with my Golden Atlantic. It was intended to be for background listening in my office but alas...its too good for that.

I have left my Border Patrol in my 3rd system, the Amber 3 is in my second system and I will leave my main system out of the discussion for now. One cool use that I discovered about the Border Patrol DAC SE is that I use it in a system that I use to digitally record using a Tascam digital recorder. Originally used to capture my vinyl, I accidentally discovered that if your Border Patrol DAC SE is the usb only model that the rca-spdif output from the Border Patrol is a very high quality output. So much so that if someone was inclined to want to capture a digital data stream from a streaming service like Qobuz or Tidal or Roon and wanted to drop it onto a flash memory card or hard drive it really works well. One of my cars has a flash memory port so its really easy to make "mix tapes" for those times where I feel like listening to certain specific artists in the car without utilizing my phone or eating up bandwidth while traveling. DISCLAIMER: I would not support in any way anyone who offloads the streams onto media as a way of not having to purchase the music.